Using High Efficiency Batteries for Jump Drives

They don't belong in Charted Space as traditionally envisioned. I don't pay that much attention to the big warships, as they don't feature in my campaigns at that level of detail. Has Mongoose been putting ion weapons on their published ships?
They wheren't intended for Chartered Space, but an author used them on some ships in The Glorious Empire and it was allowed.
 
Now I’m confused again. If the antimatter power plant doesn’t use hydrogen to make power, why is it needed? Maybe I’m dense, but didn’t you just tell me the hydrogen wasn’t required for antimatter? Maybe you need to use smaller words and speak more slowly so I can get it because I seem to remember starting off saying that it was required for antimatter power plants and you telling me it wasn’t.
Rule bug.

There are no special rules for Antimatter power plants: they use "fuel" just like Fusion.

In T5 they use negligible amounts of antimatter for fuel, even for jump.
 
I've seen this done in the past, and I believe the consensus was that as long as the hydrogen bubble gets generated, batteries can be used. I don't recall what the design implications for that are offhand.
 
As far as I can see, the "overclocking" idea was simply a lazy writer way of handwaving a reason to carry a ton of fuel. It creates more problems than it solves.
Probably. But the way you can tell is if your drive has a 'Turbo' button clearly labeled and the fans spin up when you press it.
 
I've seen this done in the past, and I believe the consensus was that as long as the hydrogen bubble gets generated, batteries can be used. I don't recall what the design implications for that are offhand.
A collector does not generate a ridiculous erroneous fanon hydrogen bubble

neither does a T5 antimatter powered jump drive, or a collector/antimatter enabled JTAS article written by MWM

Who exactly was in this "consensus"? The water cooler secret squirrel squad?

Go back to extant canon and forget these vague consensuses that can not be quoted.
 
But what about the woo-woo excitations? . . .
Woo-Woo excitations are an attempt to explain the hydrogen being used to produce the jump bubble that appeared at some point but is not in Classic Traveller or T5. . . . The Woo-woo excitations are an attempt to reconcile the hydrogen bubble theory with the various ways to create jump bubbles without hydrogen (such as collectors). . . .
I invented the "jump particle/exotic particle woo woo".
My initial comment that sparked this response from you was “Got it. Woo-woo excitations, then. That is what the hydrogen is for.”

So, no hydrogen for woo-woo excitations unless it is for fusion power. You can see where I would take that as you meaning no hydrogen required for an antimatter power plant, right?
. . .

If it is in generating the woo-woo excitations that a collector does, then my comment way back that it was needed was accurate.

In my model the collector doesn't generate the jump field excitaions, it harvests them from the "jump quantum field" - in the past I posited that stars produced exotic particles that the collector was gathering, the more precise version of this is that the star's output includes an excitation of the "jump quantum field" (the Annic Nova required a star nearby, this appears to have been changed and I don't know why, but hey ho)

Fusion reactions and matter/antimatter reactions generate excitations in the "jump quantum field", and yet for some reason fission reactions don't
.
(y)

If you use the explanation that the J-Drive turns hydrogen into a woo-woo field, there's no reason you can't use alternative energy sources . . .

In the first version, collectors already produce the woo field and the J-Drive is there to regulate it. In the second version, the collector can only release its energy in a single spike instead of in smaller amounts, so it is only useful for powering the J-Drive.

I have an idea:

How about we come up with a plausible-sounding compromise term better than "woo-woo field / excitations", like "JW2 field-excitations", or "excitations of the JW2 field", or something, so that I can stop gritting my teeth together throughout this thread and end up having to go to the dentist . . . ;)
 
Last edited:
Yeah, the traditional version is the "Oh, the power plant can produce a lot more energy than normal in brief surges that use LOTS of fuel but we only use this for powering jump drives and nothing else for reasons."

The fact that power plants were changed from ratings to energy points makes it look like the jump drive needs the same power as the maneuver drive, but the original (and T5) conception is that power plant overclocks massively for a very short time to power the jump, whereas the M-drive is powered by normal operating levels.

The standard reason that chemical, fission, or battery energy can't power the J-Drive is that it can't produce that massive overclocking surge and TravellerFusion can.

Collectors do something entirely different. Who knows what? But in T5 they don't produce normal power for ship systems and can only trigger the jump drive.

You may want to check this in T5. In the one Drive Table that cross references Power Plant Fuel and Drive Types, both the J/H/S-Drives and the M-Drives may NOT use a Fission Plant (U-Drive/Plant). They both need a P-Plant (Overclocked Fusion Plant). The G-Drive, OTOH, is internally self-powered by Fusion-Plus Modules, and merely needs refueling yearly during standard maintenance. The N-Drive (NAFAL), is also a related drive, but it can utilize a Fission Plant (U-Drive) among others, but produces far less thrust, but is highly focused over much longer distances.

The relevant table is T5.10 Book 2, Table 13 - Starship Fuel, p. 79.
 
Last edited:
. . . in the past I posited that stars produced exotic particles that the collector was gathering, the more precise version of this is that the star's output includes an excitation of the "jump quantum field" (the Annic Nova required a star nearby, this appears to have been changed and I don't know why, but hey ho)

My guess would be that the Collector was being reimagined (or expanded conceptually) to be better than a simple "marginal" technology for Jump Power, but rather one that would make a vessel powered by one capable of moving through the galaxy independent of the need to have refueling "choke points", in return for a defined specified cost in refueling time.

Also, with the note that the (expensive) Canopy degrades and needs to be replaced over time with use (thus the lack of fuel cost eventually catches up, and also the size of the Collector mechanism in T5 takes up space comparable to both a P-Plant and associated Fuel tankage), it could be that given the secret history of the ANNIC NOVA, the Canopy may have been replaced many times already, the current one functioning sub-par and the need for the close star requiring 1-6 weeks being a consequence of the failing equipment and a crew who does not know how to fix it. Alternatively, maybe the Canopy was replaced at some time in the past with an "Alt-" version of a Collector-Canopy or a Prototype that does not function quite the same as the one created by the original builders.
 
Last edited:
You may want to check this in T5. In the one Drive Table that cross references Power Plant Fuel and Drive Types, both the J/H/S-Drives and the M-Drives may NOT use a Fission Plant (U-Drive/Plant). They both need a P-Plant (Overclocked Fusion Plant). The G-Drive, OTOH, is internally self-powered by Fusion-Plus Modules, and merely needs refueling yearly during standard maintenance. The N-Drive (NAFAL), is also a related drive, but it can utilize a Fission Plant (U-Drive) among others, but produces far less thrust, but is highly focused over much longer distances.

The relevant table is T5.10 Book 2, Table 13 - Starship Fuel, p. 79.
Great, more things that make no sense. Apparently fusion plants produce a magical energy type that other power plants don't. Okay. Whatever.
 
You may want to check this in T5. In the one Drive Table that cross references Power Plant Fuel and Drive Types, both the J/H/S-Drives and the M-Drives may NOT use a Fission Plant (U-Drive/Plant). They both need a P-Plant (Overclocked Fusion Plant). The G-Drive, OTOH, is internally self-powered by Fusion-Plus Modules, and merely needs refueling yearly during standard maintenance. The N-Drive (NAFAL), is also a related drive, but it can utilize a Fission Plant (U-Drive) among others, but produces far less thrust, but is highly focused over much longer distances.

The relevant table is T5.10 Book 2, Table 13 - Starship Fuel, p. 79.
I'm either confused in my reading, or there is a contradiction between the indicated table and the text in other parts of T5 Book 2 (and perhaps a small contradiction in the text as well)
P. 56 has summaries of the different power plants and drives, and notes the Fission Plant (U-Plant) "cannot supply power in bursts intense enough to support Jump or Hop Drive (although it can support Skip Drives)." The M-Drive "requires a Power Plant with potential equal to or greater than the M-Drive" with examples for Power Plant, Fission Plant, or AM Plant. Collectors specifically get excluded.
P. 101 starts the section on Maneuver Drives (M/G/Z/N). While M-Drive do NOT have an integral power source, and thus need a Power Plant, the type of plant is not discussed.
P. 126 has performace listings for Interstellar Drives, from Jump (1-9 x10^0 parsecs) to Eight (1-9 x10^8 parsecs). The fuel requirements are listed for Power Plants, AM Plants, and Collectors, but not Fission.
P. 132 gives longer explanations of the Power plants. Here Fission Power Plants are described as incapable of Overclock, and cannot support Interstellar Drive operations. There is no mention of special treatment of Skip Drives.
P. 188 starts the section on fuel. It notes how radioactive the fuel rods are, and for the first time that I've registered it says that P-Plants start risking failure every additional week of running after 25 uses of unrefined fuel. P. 191 has a (modified, unlabeled) reprint of Table 13.

I think it possible the tables have an error, and the Fuel for the M-Drive for a Fission Plant is also supposed to be "Included in Operations" instead of "Not Possible"
 
I think it possible the tables have an error, and the Fuel for the M-Drive for a Fission Plant is also supposed to be "Included in Operations" instead of "Not Possible"
Probably yes.

M-Drives have always been able to be powered by anything from a diesel-generator onwards.
J-Drives require massive bursts of power, so requires over-clockable fusion (or Collectors or AM).
 
Yeah, there are other places where the tables conflict in that book.

The explanation for Fusion plants being required for Jump is that you can flood them with fuel that they burn extremely fast and inefficiently to produce a burst of energy output far above normal operating parameters. Fission and Chemical plants can't do this.

That obviously doesn't work as an explanation for the M-drive that operates on a sustained basis and changes nothing about the fuel usage of the power plant. If they want to say that the worst fusion plant produces more baseline power than the best fission plant, do that. Give the best possible fission plant a lower rating than any Fusion plant has. But that's not how it works. U-plants can have as much power output as the P-plants. They just cost more to do it. Which is the obvious reason not to use them.

You don't need a special rule that says "oh hey, they produce enough power but it magically doesn't work because".
 
That obviously doesn't work as an explanation for the M-drive that operates on a sustained basis and changes nothing about the fuel usage of the power plant. If they want to say that the worst fusion plant produces more baseline power than the best fission plant, do that. Give the best possible fission plant a lower rating than any Fusion plant has. But that's not how it works. U-plants can have as much power output as the P-plants. They just cost more to do it. Which is the obvious reason not to use them

But also see:

* T5.10 Book 2, p. 132 - Dispersed Power Configuration, and note specifically the Fusion Plus description;
* Then compare with T5.10 Book 2, p.133 - Fusion Plus Units description.

* Then read the sidebar in T5.10 Book 2, p. 189 (Sidebar) - Power Plant Operational Modes (and note specifically "Quiet Mode")

A ship configured with Dispersed Fusion Plus Modules only needs the Main P-Plant for M-Drives & J-Drives, everything else is powered locally by modules fuelled by distilled water tanks refilled yearly.

In Quiet Mode, the Main P-Plant cannot power M-Drives or J-Drives, but will only power life support and passive sensors and draw fuel a x0.1 of its normal consumption rate. But your fusion plus modules are powering the other things. And the quiet mode P-Plant can be brought up to Normal Mode in 1 combat round.

So "normal" fusion & fusion plus is long duration and low fuel consumption; J/M-Drives require high fuel-consumption Fusion Power. (And presumably the J-Drives spike well beyond the normal rate briefly during Jump-charging prep). So the listed regular P-Plant consumption rate is that which is sufficient to run M-Drives, but unnecessary to run most other system (power down to Quiet if you don't need the drives).
 
Last edited:
P. 56 has summaries of the different power plants and drives, and notes the Fission Plant (U-Plant) "cannot supply power in bursts intense enough to support Jump or Hop Drive (although it can support Skip Drives)."

Thank you for finding that reference. I was looking for it a while back and thought it had gotten dropped and I was just imagining that it was still in the current text.

This is likely a holdover from an earlier version of the ruleset development that got overlooked in the editing. Originally, there were only three FTL Drives: Jump, Hop, and Skip, and the higher order drive potentials were spread farther across the range of higher tech levels. The difference was that not only did the higher order drives successively increase the transition range by a factor of 10, respectively, but they also decreased the transition duration. A Jump did 1-9 pc in 1 week, a Hop did 10-90 pc in 1 day, and a Skip did 100-900 pc in about 4 hours.So this might have been tied to the reason why you could get away with a Fission (U) Reactor with a Skip Drive. Not sure though.
 
But also see:

* T5.10 Book 2, p. 132 - Dispersed Power Configuration, and note specifically the Fusion Plus description;
* Then compare with T5.10 Book 2, p.133 - Fusion Plus Units description.

* Then read the sidebar in T5.10 Book 2, p. 189 (Sidebar) - Power Plant Operational Modes (and note specifically "Quiet Mode")

A ship configured with Dispersed Fusion Plus Modules only needs the Main P-Plant for M-Drives & J-Drives, everything else is powered locally by modules fuelled by distilled water tanks refilled yearly.

In Quiet Mode, the Main P-Plant cannot power M-Drives or J-Drives, but will only power life support and passive sensors and draw fuel a x0.1 of its normal consumption rate. But your fusion plus modules are powering the other things. And the quiet mode P-Plant can be brought up to Normal Mode in 1 combat round.

So "normal" fusion & fusion plus is long duration and low fuel consumption; J/M-Drives require high fuel-consumption Fusion Power. (And presumably the J-Drives spike well beyond the normal rate briefly during Jump-charging prep). So the listed regular P-Plant consumption rate is that which is sufficient to run M-Drives, but unnecessary to run most other system (power down to Quiet if you don't need the drives).
It still comes down to saying that Fusion drives have magic energy that's better than equal rated energy output of other drives.

The normal mode fuel usage is not particularly high. M-Drives are powered by the normal operating parameters of the power plant, whether you have distributed or not. Whether you are running in normal mode with 0 acceleration or partial acceleration or full acceleration. Jump drives have an enormous fuel demand beyond what the power plant uses.

A fission plant doesn't produce different energy output than a fusion plant and they have the same ratings as fusion plants. If a class A fission plant is not producing class A power outputs, then why is it rated as Class A? And why wouldn't putting a B or C or whatever Fission plant make up the difference?
 
Agreed. But what I am suggesting is that the normal operational mode for the P-Plant ought to be the Quiet Mode. If the U-Plant is to be comparable to it and also not be able to run an M-Drive or J/H/S-Drive, then it's normal output should scale with P-Plant Quiet Mode (and comparable to sufficient quantity of F+ Modules, which also power G-Drives).

Currently U-Drives are apparently the better choice to be coupled with N-Drives due to fuel consumption.
 
I don't know about that. Fusion Plus is one of the "optional, you don't necessarily get it" Techs. It was the big sekret invention of the 3I and its High Lord Cleon. AFAIK, the Vilani and Solomani didn't have it.

Regardless, saying fission plants are equal to quiet mode fusion plants means you can't have fission powered ships unless you have Fusion plus because you can't run Normal power mode to power your active sensors and weapons systems?
 
I was interpreting some of your points as already "built in" to the tables / equations. The power plant descriptions on 132 talk about how the Fusion plant ability to Overclock is key to their ability to be so small and supposed to be a factor in the TL changes to size and efficiency of the Fusion plants. At size A the fusion plant is almost a quarter the size of the fission plant. Since both follow a linear progression of size (5 for fission, 3 for fusion), that changes to half the size at size H (800 EP) and 55% at size T (1800 EP). Theoretically, a larger fission plant could be installed that didn't need to overclock for the same power - but why 'waste' the space on a ship? Since this 'standard overclock' capacity is already reflected in the EP produced by the plant for normal operations, the M-drive doesn't seem to have a unique pull on the power than other systems. All 3 P-Plants for operations (H/U/A) can use the different operational modes, not just Fusion (H).
 
The main reason for me going down the rabbit hole of suggesting Jwne was that I can't see how the jump process is just a matter of feeding electricity into the jump drive. If it is just simple matter of having a certain amount of electrical energy then there are numerous ways of generating it. So there has to be something more exotic going on.

I long ago postulated that Grandfather invented jump technology while researching how to make a machine that could "psionically teleport", so I had him invent a device that created an interface, an artificial quantum field or membrane that jump machinery can manipulate to make the dimensional shift necessary for crude FTL travel. This consisted of a massive device that produced an expanding wave that propogated at c - behind the wave jump travel is possible.

The Vilani, Solomani and others would one day invent their own machinery capable of interacting with this jump membrane. To do so requires a lot more than just feeding electricity into the guts of the jump drive, there are all sorts of quantum hoops to jump through, symmetries to break, geometric structure to resonate with. More than just electricity.

Others would discover hop and skip, membranes operating at higher jump quantum numbers much like other atomic quantum numbers. The final discovery is the reality drive, instantaneous travel to anywhere in the universe that you can observe, model, or psionically sense (Dune navigator or thinking machine)...
 
Last edited:
Back
Top