Using High Efficiency Batteries for Jump Drives

[Sigtrygg]

There were no ion weapons until Mongoose decided Traveller couldn't be Star Wars without them.

 

[Anstett]

I'm picking up jump vibrations
Sig's calling them excitations
Jump, jump, jump... Jump vibrations.

The first mate, he got drunk
And broke in the captain's trunk
The Steward had to come and take him away
Sheriff John Stone
Why don't you leave me alone? Yeah, yeah
Well, I feel so broke up
I wanna jump home

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Looking at the JTAS #2 article, it says anti-matter can be used, yes, but it says nothing that I can see about obliviating the need for hydrogen fuel.

It also doesn't say anything about needing hydrogen...

It explicitly lists the needed components:
Power
Energy Storage
Hull
Computer
Jump Coils


Fuel (hydrogen) is only mentioned as needed to produce the required power:

When the jump drive is activated, a large store of fuel is fed through the ship’s power plant to create the energy necessary for the jump drive. In the interests of rapid energy generation, the power plant does not work at full efficiency and some of the fuel is lost in carrying off fusion by-products and in cooling the system.

Any other use for hydrogen for jump was limited to T4, as far as I know.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I finally read the rules on high efficiency batteries.

Why would you bother with any other power source for your ship?

Just like CT (capacitors), you need the power from the batteries AND the jump fuel turned into power (and therefore a power plant).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

What is missing is the timescale for using the energy stored in the battery, should it be per combat turn?

Yes, it's measured in PowerTurns.

If you store 10 Power for one turn, you can then get back 10 Power for one turn.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Just like CT (capacitors), you need the power from the batteries AND the jump fuel turned into power (and therefore a power plant).

I am not talking about the jump fuel here.

If a battery uses EPs per combat turn then it is not much use for an m-drive that has to be on for two hours, or the basic systems that have to be powered for over a week.

If on the other hand the battery EP are per hour or per day or per week things are different.

We need to know the rate.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Nor does it explicitly say you do need hydrogen for the jump drive, it does explicitly state you need the hydrogen for the power plant.

"Power Source
Jumping uses large amounts of energy to rip open the barriers between normal space and jump space. Normally, only a fusion power plant can supply this energy. Some alternate systems make use of solar power generators (which operate far more slowly) or anti-matter power systems (rare and very high-tech).
Energy Storage Nodes
Once power is generated, it must be stored until the instant of jump. Capacitors or large fast discharge batteries fit this requirement"

"When the jump drive is activated, a large store of fuel is fed through the ship’s power plant to create the energy necessary for the jump drive. In the interests of rapid energy generation, the power plant does not work at full efficiency, and some of the fuel is lost in carrying off fusion byproducts, and in cooling the system. At the end of a very brief period (less than a few minutes), the jump drive capacitors have been charged to capacity. Under computer control, the energy is then fed into appropriate sections of the jump drive and jump begins."

No mention of a hydrogen filled jump bubble.

But what about the woo-woo excitations? They aren’t mentioned and I thought the hydrogen fuel was processed to get them. A straight reading of the rules says you’re right about antimatter not needing fuel to generate the power, I suppose.

Now @Arkathan will have to change the sheet to not require hydrogen fuel for antimatter power and he’s going to grumble.

 

[Vormaerin]

There were no ion weapons until Mongoose decided Traveller couldn't be Star Wars without them.

We all know that Traveller has long had a difficulty distinguishing between rules and setting. Nothing wrong with ion weapons being part of the rules. In fact, its probably good that they are.

They don't belong in Charted Space as traditionally envisioned. I don't pay that much attention to the big warships, as they don't feature in my campaigns at that level of detail. Has Mongoose been putting ion weapons on their published ships?

 

[Vormaerin]

But what about the woo-woo excitations? They aren’t mentioned and I thought the hydrogen fuel was processed to get them. A straight reading of the rules says you’re right about antimatter not needing fuel to generate the power, I suppose.

Now @Arkathan will have to change the sheet to not require hydrogen fuel for antimatter power and he’s going to grumble.

Woo-Woo excitations are an attempt to explain the hydrogen being used to produce the jump bubble that appeared at some point but is not in Classic Traveller or T5. In that version, the hydrogen is explicitly burned as fuel for the power plant. Shipboard fusion power plants have a fuel inefficient turbocharge mode that produces a massive spike of energy at the point of jump.

That is not the version that is in Mongoose Traveller's explanations, however. The Woo-woo excitations are an attempt to reconcile the hydrogen bubble theory with the various ways to create jump bubbles without hydrogen (such as collectors). Because the power spike concept doesn't work that well with an Energy point system. Though you could fudge it to do.

 

[Sigtrygg]

But what about the woo-woo excitations? They aren’t mentioned and I thought the hydrogen fuel was processed to get them. A straight reading of the rules says you’re right about antimatter not needing fuel to generate the power, I suppose.

Now @Arkathan will have to change the sheet to not require hydrogen fuel for antimatter power and he’s going to grumble.

I invented the "jump particle/exotic particle woo woo".

Now according to HG2022 jump drives require a power plant (fusion or antimatter, for some reason a TL9 fission plant giving 9.78 EP per ton isn't good enough) and 10% of the hull jump fuel per jump number (less TL advantages if any). Going by the rules as written an antimatter power plant jump 6 ship will still require 60% "jump fuel". The same applies to batteries (so technically you could wire up a fission plant to a battery pack, but the rules for fission fuel are silly so not much point) - you still need the jump fuel.
A collector on the other hand replaces the "jump fuel".

 

[Sigtrygg]

We all know that Traveller has long had a difficulty distinguishing between rules and setting. Nothing wrong with ion weapons being part of the rules. In fact, its probably good that they are.

I agree, but will continue to rename them as electromagnetic pulse projectors

I use them in my Culture setting.

They don't belong in Charted Space as traditionally envisioned. I don't pay that much attention to the big warships, as they don't feature in my campaigns at that level of detail. Has Mongoose been putting ion weapons on their published ships?

Yes, ion weapons are now on published Third Imperium ship designs.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I invented the "jump particle/exotic particle woo woo".

Now according to HG2022 jump drives require a power plant (fusion or antimatter, for some reason a TL9 fission plant giving 9.78 EP per ton isn't good enough) and 10% of the hull jump fuel per jump number (less TL advantages if any). Going by the rules as written an antimatter power plant jump 6 ship will still require 60% "jump fuel". The same applies to batteries (so technically you could wire up a fission plant to a battery pack, but the rules for fission fuel are silly so not much point) - you still need the jump fuel.
A collector on the other hand replaces the "jump fuel".

Now I’m confused again. If the antimatter power plant doesn’t use hydrogen to make power, why is it needed? Maybe I’m dense, but didn’t you just tell me the hydrogen wasn’t required for antimatter? Maybe you need to use smaller words and speak more slowly so I can get it because I seem to remember starting off saying that it was required for antimatter power plants and you telling me it wasn’t.

Is this Opposite Day? Did I come out of jump in an alternate reality? Most likely I’m missing the point somehow, but it feels like at different times in this conversation you’ve been on both sides of the discussion.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Look at the fuel section in HG2022

You need power plant fuel - chemical, hydrogen, uranium/thorium or whatever for fission (although those rules are seriously wrong), and I am assuming matter/antimatter (it isn't specified)

In addition you need "fuel" for the jump drive - the amount of fuel is dependent on jump number, hull size, and any TL advantages/disadvantages
unless you have a collector, then you don't need the jump fuel at all.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Look at the fuel section in HG2022

You need power plant fuel - chemical, hydrogen, uranium/thorium or whatever for fission (although those rules are seriously wrong), and I am assuming matter/antimatter (it isn't specified)

In addition you need "fuel" for the jump drive - the amount of fuel is dependent on jump number, hull size, and any TL advantages/disadvantages
unless you have a collector, then you don't need the jump fuel at all.

So your disagreement with initial comment was splitting hairs? I’d have to look, but I seem to remember starting this off by saying that antimatter powered jumps required hydrogen fuel and you stating (and pointing to JTAS articles to prove it) that that power plant didn’t need hydrogen. I’ve gotten all turned around in this discussion and will have to go back and see what I said.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Only if a fusion power plant is used, since it is not used in collector or antimatter enabled jump drives.

My initial comment that sparked this response from you was “Got it. Woo-woo excitations, then. That is what the hydrogen is for.”

So, no hydrogen for woo-woo excitations unless it is for fusion power. You can see where I would take that as you meaning no hydrogen required for an antimatter power plant, right?

If antimatter powered jumps required plants to use hydrogen in a rush to generate the power, that seems off. How would an antimatter power plant use it? Not as a means of generating the power. Antimatter is potent enough to do that on its own.

If it is in generating the woo-woo excitations that a collector does, then my comment way back that it was needed was accurate. Pick a side. You don’t need to be right when arguing both sides of a position.

 

[Sigtrygg]

No, I am not splitting hairs. MgT doesn't really address antimatter powered jump drives in the way the JTAS article requires.

Before this conversation I hadn't bothered to read HG2022 in much detail.

The JTAS article, which I consider to be definitive considering its author, makes it clear that hydrogen is only used as fuel for the power plant, MgT has decided that hydrogen is also needed for the jump drive, unless a collector is used.

 

[Sigtrygg]

My initial comment that sparked this response from you was “Got it. Woo-woo excitations, then. That is what the hydrogen is for.”

Collectors don't use hydrogen.

So, no hydrogen for woo-woo excitations unless it is for fusion power. You can see where I would take that as you meaning no hydrogen required for an antimatter power plant, right?

My personal opinion, based on the Jumpspace article and T5, is that hydrogen shouldn't be needed for an antimatter powered jump drive either.

If antimatter powered jumps required plants to use hydrogen in a rush to generate the power, that seems off. How would an antimatter power plant use it? Not as a means of generating the power. Antimatter is potent enough to do that on its own.

I agree, the extra hydrogen should be reduced, since the antimatter plant is vastly more powerful.
Perhaps the "jump fuel hydrogen" should be reduced by a factor of 5?

If it is in generating the woo-woo excitations that a collector does, then my comment way back that it was needed was accurate. Pick a side. You don’t need to be right when arguing both sides of a position.

In my model the collector doesn't generate the jump field excitaions, it harvests them from the "jump quantum field" - in the past I posited that stars produced exotic particles that the collector was gathering, the more precise version of this is that the star's output includes an excitation of the "jump quantum field" (the Annic Nova required a star nearby, this appears to have been changed and I don't know why, but hey ho)

Fusion reactions and matter/antimatter reactions generate excitations in the "jump quantum field", and yet for some reason fission reactions don't.

 

[Vormaerin]

The core problem is that there are multiple descriptions of how things work in Mongoose. Some are from previously authoritative articles like Marc's that Mongoose republished in their material. Other versions are written in the core rules. And others are in supplements that seem likely to have been influenced by the authors' familiarity with T5.

For gameplay purposes, what is important is that a typical ship needs a power plant (officially a fusion one, primarily because that keeps all the fuel the same) that produces a certain amount of energy and the ship has to have a certain volume dedicated to fuel.

The explanations for those two anchors of ship design have varied over time. Collectors also mess with it a bit and they also have worked differently in different editions. Currently, collectors are essentially an alternative fuel source for jump, as they can't produce power for the rest of the ship, so despite being labeled a power plant they don't really act as one.

 

[Vormaerin]

If you use the explanation that the J-Drive turns hydrogen into a woo-woo field, there's no reason you can't use alternative energy sources like chemical plants, fission plants, or batteries. Because all you need to do is power the J-Drive. You just need to track your power plant's alternate fuel source separate from the hydrogen.

If you use the original "overclock the fusion plant for a massive power spike" explanation, then you really can only use fusion plants as the other options don't make sense with that set up.

In the first version, collectors already produce the woo field and the J-Drive is there to regulate it. In the second version, the collector can only release its energy in a single spike instead of in smaller amounts, so it is only useful for powering the J-Drive.

Anti-matter could work either way depending on how you envision it. But that that point, you are probably doing skip drives or other things that make the setting completely different. So having entirely different ship design in regards to fuel requirements doesn't matter that much.

 

[CordwainerFish]

The first mate, he got drunk
And broke in the captain's trunk
The Steward had to come and take him away
Sheriff John Stone
Why don't you leave me alone? Yeah, yeah
Well, I feel so broke up
I wanna jump home

Now I'm trying very hard not to think of a Trav version of "The Good Ship Venus". Thanks a bunch.