Updating the SRDs?

[Spica Publishing]

This is aimed mainly at the current group of Mongoose staff who are directly involved in putting out Traveller:

Any thoughts, ideas, or plans to update the various SRDs with the new skills and rules bits and pieces that are in the books released since Mercenary and High Guard?

...just wondering out loud, doncherknow

 

[Jon Brazer Enterprises]

Riddle me this: what would be gained by new/additions to the Traveller SRD?
New Psionic powers (that could be created independently using the existing open content)?
New Skills (that could be created independently using the existing open content)?
Ways to describe stars or systems in more detail (that could be created independently using the existing open content)?
New weapons for vehicles (that could be created independently using the existing open content)?
New styles of armor (that could be created independently using the existing open content)?

Be creative with what you already have and you can get just about everything you want to publish.

 

[AndrewW]

The vehicle system at least should be... Just like High Guard is.

 

[EDG]

Riddle me this: what would be gained by new/additions to the Traveller SRD?
New Psionic powers (that could be created independently using the existing open content)?
New Skills (that could be created independently using the existing open content)?
Ways to describe stars or systems in more detail (that could be created independently using the existing open content)?
New weapons for vehicles (that could be created independently using the existing open content)?
New styles of armor (that could be created independently using the existing open content)?

Be creative with what you already have and you can get just about everything you want to publish.

Well, personally, I'm of the opinion that if material is Open Content, then it should all be put somewhere that is easily accessible to everyone for free (like say, an SRD).

EDIT: That doesn't have to be done immediately, but something like within a few months after a product's release would be fine.

That way, you don't have to reinvent everything when it's already been created specifically as Open Content, the whole point of which is to be used by everyone.

Obviously publishers want people to buy their products, but presumably people who buy them (a) aren't too fussed about what's open or not anyway and (b) are buying them because they feel it's better to get the complete product and not just bits from an SRD, and (c) want to see the closed content in the product as well.

 

[Dave Chase]

Riddle me this: what would be gained by new/additions to the Traveller SRD?

...

Be creative with what you already have and you can get just about everything you want to publish.

I can tell that you have never dealt with some major licenses before.
Not being insutling, just making a point.

Once you have dealt with some licensors that take every license very seriously, you have a tendency to make sure that you are with in what they want for a license product. Cause otherwise you end up wasting a lot of time on something that will be rejected.

Now working with Mongoose there is 2 ways I could see this being done.
They update the SRD say every quarter to make it easier for those wishing to produce products.
Or
They add a statement in the SRD that says (something along these lines)
The X found in the SRD is the standard and any thing found in our official products of the Traveller line.


Doesn't mean you cant create something new, but it sure gives you an idea of what direction to take that something new toward.

Dave Chase

 

[Jon Brazer Enterprises]

I can tell that you have never dealt with some major licenses before.
Not being insutling, just making a point.

Once you have dealt with some licensors that take every license very seriously, you have a tendency to make sure that you are with in what they want for a license product. Cause otherwise you end up wasting a lot of time on something that will be rejected.

That's the beauty of the OGL. There is no approval process. I do not need to go to Mongoose and have them approve it. One works differently with such an Open license as opposed to a license that has an approval process. So the above comparison does not apply.

Now working with Mongoose there is 2 ways I could see this being done.
They update the SRD say every quarter to make it easier for those wishing to produce products.
Or
They add a statement in the SRD that says (something along these lines)
The X found in the SRD is the standard and any thing found in our official products of the Traveller line.


Doesn't mean you cant create something new, but it sure gives you an idea of what direction to take that something new toward.

Dave Chase

Option 3: Mongoose doesn't release anything additional than what they already have and those of us that are not writing for Mongoose are thus encouraged to be creative with what we have.

And truthfully, I don't want to be told what direction I should go. I write and I publish this stuff because I love it. If I want to go some weird direction, I can do that. If rules don't exist for the direction I want to go, I'll make them up as I go. And I'll love every minute of it.

What is Mongoose's incentive to release anything else as open content? They have to use man power to format the document, make sure there is no OTU terminology present, it increases the possibility that someone other than Mongoose will compile all the SRD's into a book and sell it (drawing sales away from Mongoose), and they draw no direct sales from it (although indirect sales is certainly an arguable point).

They have already been increadibly generous by releasing as much as they have as open content. I do not understand the constant requests for more. What is wrong with using our imaginations to create something new.

The Vehicle Creation guidelines is a great example. I do have a Mech Tech 'n' bot planned that is nothing but vehicles. Will I be reading the vehicle creation guidelines first? Absolutely. Even if it is not open content, I can still balance any vehicles I write with those presented in those books. Am I going to use non-open content, nope. If the vehicle creation guidelines are not open content, is that going to stop me, not one lick. Vehicles are in the base Traveller SRD. There's no reason why I can't create my own vehicle mounted weapons, environment specific vehicles, grav speeders, etc. I don't need the vehicle creation guidelines to do that. All I need is my imagination and a book to balance it by.

 

[Dave Chase]

OGL only allows certain things.

And higher than the sky is the limit on imagination of new things.

It all depends on what you are wanting to create and to what extent you are wanting your imagination to be 'official' or just usable.

I'm not arguing with you, just pointing out the other side of things.

OGL is fine and dandy until that OGL is with drawn.

Doing things under license (and not OGL) is better if you are wanting the staying power and a part of the future of the license.

Just two different approaches.

Can't speak for EDG, he might be pushing for more OGL information. I am pushing/desiring more detailed licensing information.

And example of difference. While at producing trading cards under the Transfomers license, I had lots of room to use what ever images, poses, and 'bots' I wanted as long as they came from official sources.

But I had very little room to make any text or background or action that those same 'bots' would be doing.

I (and the card artist) had an idea that was not covered by the license. I met with the licensor and we discussed the 2 new things.

The images got a:
Do and let us see it. If we like it we will approve it otherwise NoGo.
The background/story got a:
Wow, that's cool. That will work very well with the new Transformers look. What do you want in trade (barter if you will) for allowing us (licensor) to use that material.
We (card company) get to print it first.
Agreed.

Unfortunately that trading card company went out of business before that set of trading cards got published. But the idea was still used and moved forward in the Transformers universe of things.

To me that is the difference between OGL and a licensee. I am interested in the licensee level of detail (or potential work.)

Hope that helps clarify things a bit. Not arguing or disagreeing with you just looking for something a bit different (in my view).

Dave Chase

 

[Jon Brazer Enterprises]

OGL only allows certain things.
[snip]
OGL is fine and dandy until that OGL is with drawn.

Truth be told, OGL allows everything with no approval process.
And the OGL cannot be revoked:

4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

Translation: if I live to be 100 years old, I can still publish material for use with this version of Traveller until the day I die.

It all depends on what you are wanting to create and to what extent you are wanting your imagination to be 'official' or just usable.

As far as I know, there are 5 companies that are allowed to publish 'official' Traveller material: FFE, Mongoose, Avenger, Steve Jackson, and QLI. None of them use the OGL to publish their material. I'm not one of them. I'm not trying to be one of them. I see my company as being the future of Traveller. If someone wants a much more mech-themed home game, JBE'll be providing that. If they want to do Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future with Traveller rules, JBE will be there to provide robots and power armor similar to that setting. If someone wants to run an urban fantasy setting, JBE will be there with rules for arcane wielders and their secret societies in modern and future settings. If someone wants to use the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting with Traveller rules, I intend to have JBE at the forefront of that. At Jon Brazer Enterprises, we take the road less travelled to bring you the future, even if the future leads us into the past.

But at the end of the day one simple fact remains: you can still do everything you are saying (and everything that I am saying) (except for the stamp of 'official') with what is currently open content. You just have to be a bit more imaginative in how you do it.

 

[GamerDude]

As far as I know, there are 5 companies that are allowed to publish 'official' Traveller material: FFE, Mongoose, Avenger, Steve Jackson, and QLI. I'm not one of them. I'm not trying to be one of them.

Umm...just to be clear

FFE - Far Future is owned by Marc Miller, owner of Traveller so they'll always be publishing
Mongoose - Current license holder
Avenger - Not sure, think they are under the Mongoose OGL
Steve Jackson - "Interstellar Wars" was their Traveller Swan Song, and their license was entirely for an ATU as stated in their very first books.
QLI - Based on the statements from Mongoose, their license is also gone. But, Marc is allowing them/has licensed them to host the official Traveller forums.

 

[Jon Brazer Enterprises]

Umm...just to be clear
[snip]
Avenger - Not sure, think they are under the Mongoose OGL

To the best of my searching, there is no OGL in the Golden Age Starship Compilation 1-5. If someone find it, feel free to let me know. Otherwise, they are not an OGL licensee, but a sub-licensee off the direct license holder. Last I heard, they still required approval by Mongoose and Miller for their material and had to have their stuff sold by Mongoose. That is not a stipulation of neither the OGL nor the TLL.

QLI - Based on the statements from Mongoose, their license is also gone. But, Marc is allowing them/has licensed them to host the official Traveller forums.

Their T20 license expires in 2010. link

 

[Dave Chase]

LOL

And no company that has the OGL as part of their public allowances has ever changed or dropped the OGL.

Plus if you are going to attempt to make a point make sure that you again be very clear in that point.

You are going for Open Content only and want your material to be usable by said license with out having to go through all the hoops. Great, thats what you want.

On the other hand

7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.
8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content.

If one is attempting to make/create material that is directly part of the license and 'official' part of the license you need more.
More information, more approval and more understanding of the material.


JBE
stop trying to turn this into a CaptJack/EDG discussion.

We are both agreeing to the OGL and licensing issues. You are mainly an OGL product producer and I am wishing to be a license product producer (or at the min have some official things published as 'official' material.)
(Might never happen but that does not mean, I don't want to try. )

Dave Chase

 

[Jon Brazer Enterprises]

And no company that has the OGL as part of their public allowances has ever changed or dropped the OGL.

I'm confused. There is one company that can change the OGL and that is Wizards of the Coast. No one else can change the OGL unless Wizards says so and they do not appear to care much about the OGL nowadays. Even if they did, there is no reason why to use OGL 2.0 over OGL 1.0.

Also the OGL requires that the OGL be in any and all products that use the OGL. No exceptions. Not even Wizards of the Coast and they wrote the thing. So if Avenger doesn't have an OGL in their products, they're not using it.

I am wishing to be a license product producer

Best of luck to you. But you still don't need additional open content material for that.

 

[MJD]

I feel the need to challenge the assertion that QLI host the Official Traveller Forums.

No, they don't.

They host a Taveller forum which is used by FFE for the T5 playtest, presumably because it was started when the QLI forums were the main licensee.

QLI makes a lot of noise* about its 'largest and most active forum' status, which may or may not be true, but there is no one official traveller forum. QLI is just a licensee like the others, though differing in that other licensees pay their writers and produce product.

* Pretty much all QLI do these days is make noise. There used to be some substance behind the noise but I left.

 

[MJD]

As to the Avenger situation, we're not using OGL.

We publish via Mongoose and are covered by their license. This means we can do things nobody else can, eg publish official OTU material not set in Foreven.

 

[EDG]

Just to muddy the water further, QLI do actually have an OGL. IIRC (and it's been a while since I looked at this) it's the same sort of idea as Mongoose Traveller's OGL - the core parts of the d20 rules that T20 uses are available as Open Content, but not the Charted Space/OTU parts. You could make a spaceship using T20's OGL ship design rules, for example, and commercially publish it as such (except IIRC you can't say it's Traveller compatible or something. Like I said, it's been a while since I looked at it)

So you could actually use the T20 OGL to write products, and nobody can do a damn thing to stop you, you don't need QLI's permission, and they won't get any money from it. As far as I am aware it hasn't been revoked (and indeed can't be revoked). It's just a matter of whether you would want to write for a game that not a lot of people play anymore (T20/d20), or if you want to write for a game that a lot of people do (MGT). Personally I think going the MGT OGL route would be more profitable nowadays.

Though someone refresh my memory - did QLI ever do an SRD document for the T20 OGL?

 

[EDG]

Even if they did, there is no reason why to use OGL 2.0 over OGL 1.0.

There's an OGL 2.0 now?

 

[EDG]

As far as I know, there are 5 companies that are allowed to publish 'official' Traveller material: FFE, Mongoose, Avenger, Steve Jackson, and QLI. None of them use the OGL to publish their material. I'm not one of them. I'm not trying to be one of them. I see my company as being the future of Traveller.

I'm sure any/all of those five companies see or saw themselves as being "the future of Traveller" at some point too. Maybe you'll get that big, but realistically I doubt it. Not that I wish you ill in your endeavours (on the contrary, good luck with them), but there's plenty of room for everyone to co-exist in the Traveller OGL market without anyone getting all aggressive and driven and super-competitive about it.

If someone wants a much more mech-themed home game, JBE'll be providing that. If they want to do Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future with Traveller rules, JBE will be there to provide robots and power armor similar to that setting. If someone wants to run an urban fantasy setting, JBE will be there with rules for arcane wielders and their secret societies in modern and future settings. If someone wants to use the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting with Traveller rules, I intend to have JBE at the forefront of that. At Jon Brazer Enterprises, we take the road less travelled to bring you the future, even if the future leads us into the past.

Wow, you've been practicing the market-speak, haven't you. Your growing powerhouse of a company will surely steamroller over all the competition in its epic quest to bring us the future from the past!

I'm sorry, I don't want to mock but... come on, chill out a bit . Like I said, there's room for everyone here.

Though keep in mind that Mongoose are still the granddaddy of everything here - you can put out all the robot/power armour books you like, but if Mongoose puts out their own... most people are going to buy that and not even take a second look at yours. Why? Because theirs is more "official".

I recall that I was interested in other companies' takes on the other D&D 4e classes before PHB2 came out, but I didn't want to buy their stuff because it wasn't the official take on it and I didn't want to have to re-learn everything when WotC's PHB2 came out. I'll bet that the third party alt-druid, alt-shaman etc books aren't selling much at all now (did they even sell much at all to start with?).

And don't count on you being the only guy doing this stuff. The beauty of OGL is that anyone can do the same thing you're doing and release their own versions of it - and they can even take your Open Content and use it in their product too.

 

[Spica Publishing]

@JBE: Yes, I am fully aware that we can create whatever rules/skills/whatever we like using the OGL and that we don't have to rely on what is in the SRD.

I really just wanted to know if the SRDs will be updated with stuff from the more recent books - that's all... :?

 

[Anonymous]

OGL 2.0 has been out since 2004.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/oglfaq/20040123d

 

[dmccoy1693]

There's an OGL 2.0 now?

OGL 2.0 has been out since 2004.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/oglfaq/20040123d

I believe that is OGL FAQ 2.0, not OGL 2.0. As far as I know, there is nor ever has been an OGL 2.0. I was replying to Dave Chase's comments about the OGL being withdrawn or changed.

Just to muddy the water further, QLI do actually have an OGL.

T20 is based on the d20 system and is OGL. I don't know how much/little was released open content. The few T20 books I did buy show that the system is open content while all setting material is not.

There really are two main reasons to do an SRD: to keep your products out of the open content sphere and to decrease confusion. T20 used open content to make their system, thus negating the first reason. So there really was no need for them to create an SRD. Esp since QLI never released a free license to have a T20 logo on their products.

Wow, you've been practicing the market-speak, haven't you. Your growing powerhouse of a company will surely steamroller over all the competition in its epic quest to bring us the future from the past!

I'm sorry, I don't want to mock but... come on, chill out a bit . Like I said, there's room for everyone here.

Though keep in mind that Mongoose are still the granddaddy of everything here - you can put out all the robot/power armour books you like, but if Mongoose puts out their own... most people are going to buy that and not even take a second look at yours. Why? Because theirs is more "official".

To quote Monte Cook discussing is days working for Iron Crown Enterprises (Role Master RPG):

TSR and D&D certainly weren't the competition. In the late 80s/early 90s, ICE and other "second-tier" companies like GDW, Steve Jackson, and West End [produced material for those] that TSR left behind, and were happy to do so. ... That person left D&D looking for something simpler, something more complicated, or something different, and all the second tier companies offered the customer their various options.

Mongoose isn't my competition. I'm providing something different that there may or may not be enough of a market for Mongoose to bother with. I provide material for the homebrewer that wants something different than what has been done in the past. I'm not bound by any paid license who's IP will rake in tons of bucks (like Dora the Explorer) so why not take full advantage of my position. Like I said, I'm doing this for fun. If I happen to produce something that tons of people want and I can retire from the day job to do this all day, great. Otherwise, I am happy in my situation.

But JBE is a growing powerhouse of a 3rd party company. At the time of writing this, we have 21 products for sale. Thats more than all other Traveller OGL publisher combined. That's more than Avenger. That is more than Mongoose without Avenger. My company may be small, the products may be small, but we are growing. Where we are growing to, only the stars know. I have no intention of driving someone else out of the market. I'm here to produce what I want to produce and have fun in the process. I am certainly not producing comprehensive guides that are the be all and end all on a topic. If someone else wants to produce material closer to 'official' than I care to go (with my non-Foreven material*), more power to them.

*my Foreven licensed material is as close to 'official' as I can make it, which is still unofficial, but I prefer to think of it as 'official-themed'.