unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
- Thread starter F33D
- Start date
Faelan Niall
Banded Mongoose
Honestly I don't see a problem with having automated jump ships, mechanically speaking that is. I mean logically you could have an advanced program handle things that are routine. That is where the problem comes in for me. No one is going to risk a 100Mcr ship on the basis of everything going well and the computer not malfunctioning. At least with a crew on board you have a method to mitigate the risk after something unexpected happens. Based on the fact that misjumps do occur that seems like an unwarranted risk in order to save a couple of creds. So while I have no problem with it in theory, in practice I just don't see it happening due to the risk of loss involved. The only place I could see it occcuring is with a governmentally run communication system, because the loss would be negligible because you just need a vehicle large enough to move the computer and transmitter to send the encoded messages, and if one gets lost the next one woudl just transmit the old stuff as a failsafe and then the new stuff. Harddrive space is cheap afterall.
far-trader
Mongoose
Basically much of the space related skills and manned positions come down to artificially required to make it a role playing game. Once the tech supports advanced enough programming you don't need Pilots, Gunners, Navigators and such. The issue then becomes one of inventing reasons why the game universe doesn't have fully automated space travel. Some options are...
...the classic rogue AI meme, "Kill all Humans" and that. Nobody is willing to trust the machine mind.
...some human quirk that machine intelligence cannot duplicate is required. Pilots make better flight choices, Gunners make better tactical guesses, Navigators anticipate better plots. It's mostly bogus except/unless one goes with something I've long toyed with and that is applying magic by making such skills access a subconscious Psionic talent. A kind of Pre-cognizance Which of course is itself a bit of a dodge.
...the classic rogue AI meme, "Kill all Humans" and that. Nobody is willing to trust the machine mind.
...some human quirk that machine intelligence cannot duplicate is required. Pilots make better flight choices, Gunners make better tactical guesses, Navigators anticipate better plots. It's mostly bogus except/unless one goes with something I've long toyed with and that is applying magic by making such skills access a subconscious Psionic talent. A kind of Pre-cognizance Which of course is itself a bit of a dodge.
I wouldn't specifically prohibit them, but IMTU, drives and power plants require constant adjustment by the engineer for proper operation. Automated systems can handle many of those tasks, and might succeed for a jump or two, eventually the automated systems get out of alignment also. Also, given how many systems lack even basic space navigation beacons, or have potentially hostile contacts, an AI is not going to be able to keep the vessel as safe as an intelligent being could.
However, I like to keep my Traveller feeling sort of "retro-future-ish", with technology that does not always behave correctly or reliably. No AIs, and someone always needs to whack something with a wrench to make it work on occasion. Having mildly unpredictable (yet actually very reliable, when you consider what it's being asked to do) machinery makes for a more fun player experience, even if it stretches credulity a little sometimes.
However, I like to keep my Traveller feeling sort of "retro-future-ish", with technology that does not always behave correctly or reliably. No AIs, and someone always needs to whack something with a wrench to make it work on occasion. Having mildly unpredictable (yet actually very reliable, when you consider what it's being asked to do) machinery makes for a more fun player experience, even if it stretches credulity a little sometimes.
far-trader said:
Maybe not, if you decide what separates truly sentient minds from "mere AIs" is that sentient minds can perceive a wider "now", seeing both (relatively) current data, recalling recent data, and reaching ahead to see future data (the part AIs can't do). Not that I believe that's how it works in reality mind you, but since psionics are a part of Traveller, it makes a certain in-game sense.
It's a neat idea at any rate, and one I'll probably blow too many cycles pondering.
If you like your Traveller "hard boiled", with J-space as a set of equations and physics effects rather than a strange region of not-space which can drive some people mad, and which can occasionally behave in ways not predictable by known mathematics, then you should definitely allow unmanned jump ships.
Yes, but only as "message torpedoes", typically used by new remoteF33D said:
frontier colonies which own no starships and are rarely visited by go-
vernment ships or traders as a means to call for help in an emergen-
cy. While these "message torpedoes" are not completely reliable and
many engineers suspect that they are purchased mostly for psycholo-
gical reasons, there have been cases where their use has saved lives.
The use of fully automated freighters on short trade routes would be
technologically possible and has been discussed, but until now none
of the potential destination systems has allowed their use, there is
too much fear of severe accidents.
My impression of the tech levels which are common in Traveller settings is that the ability is there to heavily/fully-automate routine operations, but full AI hasn't been developed yet (I can't find this in the MgT Core Rulebook, but MegaTraveller gives AI as TL 16 and self-aware robots/computers as TL 17), so a completely automated ship wouldn't be able to deal with anything too far out of the ordinary and needs humans on hand to direct it in those cases, which then loops back to the earlier comment about "I'm not going to risk 100MCr on the hopes that nothing will go wrong."
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Add a separate "crew" computer and include the following:
Expert/Pilot-2
Expert/Astrogation-2
Expert/Engineer (Jump)-2
Exper/Engineer (M-Drive)-2
Expert/Engineer (PP)-2
Expert/Engineer (Electronics)-2
Expert/Mechanics-2
Expert/Commo-2
Expert/Sensors-2
Include some features like Repair Drones
You should be good to go. As long as things don't get 'unusual' the computer should be able to handle most routine functions.
Today, modern comercial aircraft have 2 pilots. The Autopilot on the plane is capable of taxi, takeoff, flight, landing, taxi. AND for 99% of all in-flight emergencies, the autopilot will respond faster and better than a human pilot. So, why do we still have 2 pilots in the cockpit? Ask Captain Sully...
Expert/Pilot-2
Expert/Astrogation-2
Expert/Engineer (Jump)-2
Exper/Engineer (M-Drive)-2
Expert/Engineer (PP)-2
Expert/Engineer (Electronics)-2
Expert/Mechanics-2
Expert/Commo-2
Expert/Sensors-2
Include some features like Repair Drones
You should be good to go. As long as things don't get 'unusual' the computer should be able to handle most routine functions.
Today, modern comercial aircraft have 2 pilots. The Autopilot on the plane is capable of taxi, takeoff, flight, landing, taxi. AND for 99% of all in-flight emergencies, the autopilot will respond faster and better than a human pilot. So, why do we still have 2 pilots in the cockpit? Ask Captain Sully...
CosmicGamer
Mongoose
How often does your computer crash, lock up, or just bog down and need a reboot? Ever have a computer component failure?
While there could be repair bots and reboots, this takes time - time when all sorts of bad things could be happening. Especially dangerous if it occurs during take off or landing - times when the ship is taking stress and more likely to have failures. Also, not all AI/computer problems would be repairable in flight.
Perhaps there are laws, something like Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics, which make manned ships preferable.
While there could be repair bots and reboots, this takes time - time when all sorts of bad things could be happening. Especially dangerous if it occurs during take off or landing - times when the ship is taking stress and more likely to have failures. Also, not all AI/computer problems would be repairable in flight.
Perhaps there are laws, something like Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics, which make manned ships preferable.
An automated ship could not protect itself from Pirates or other manned nuisances looking to misbehave. Someone has to be there at the time to make the decision and authorize weapons fire on any manned vessel - and be accountable for their actions.
A simple order to "come to" and prepare to be boarded.
Perhaps there are instances of ships jumping into empty space or just heading out system due to a danger it perceives. Now the ship is lost because nobody knows where it is. Might be preferable to allow damage but at least be able to salvage the ship.
Thanks for the feedback guys. I think that I've settled on something.
Upon 1st entering Jump space (within 30 seconds) the astrogator uses a device that views the quantum energy of the j-space surrounding the ship in order to make final alignment to the nav plot (point ship so the vector is correct). The observation of the energy (by a sentient) causes the energy to act as particles that can then be analyzed to determine orientation. While mechanical observation can be used, the quality (intensity) of sentient observation is almost impossible to duplicate.
An Astrogation pgm can perform this duty as a Formidable task. Failure results in a random wrong jump vector.
Upon 1st entering Jump space (within 30 seconds) the astrogator uses a device that views the quantum energy of the j-space surrounding the ship in order to make final alignment to the nav plot (point ship so the vector is correct). The observation of the energy (by a sentient) causes the energy to act as particles that can then be analyzed to determine orientation. While mechanical observation can be used, the quality (intensity) of sentient observation is almost impossible to duplicate.
An Astrogation pgm can perform this duty as a Formidable task. Failure results in a random wrong jump vector.
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
AndrewW said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Who are you calling HUMAN ya worthless tin can.
Hey I told everyone I was a ground forces grunt not a space marine and had no skill with ship weapons. It's hardly my fault we had no gunner, I was hired for security and Gorilla to man combat......
Anyway Computer controlled ships.
Processor failures, well with solid state and quantum computing these will be very rare and since your ship is going to be running a VI (Virtual Intelligence) council that basically votes on problems this allows them to identify any processor core that is doing something odd and shut it down.
A human ordering it to stop and be boarded. Please submit the one million digit identification code to allow for override of onboard computer control.
A computer controlled ship cannot defend itself from pirates. Hahahahahahahahaha. What is that computer program that fires the turrets on its own called again.
Unable to deal with on board problems that a human crew could. Repair drones, multiple processors running the top end programs and such like such a ship would be better than the average skill 1 crew at anything needed mid flight.
As I see it the limitations on computer controlled ships are not the computers. Instead it is going to be a case of the Humans not being happy with a tin can running the tin can.
Long boring cargo runs should be no problem, a team of Astrogators at each end of the run calculate the plots daily, the drone cargo ship uploads an up to date jump plot and away it goes.
It is going to be passenger ships that will have a living crew. Passengers being human, or at least alive, would for the most part prefer to know that people are in the loop. Much with the aircraft that these days can take off, fly the run and land without needing a human to touch the controls there are still pilots aboard to keep the passengers happy.
That isn't to say that computer controlled systems or even entire ships would not be around. A small craft without a gunner fits computer controlled turrets. A paranoid noble has his entire ships crew replaced with drones and only has his bodyguards on board.
The OTU is fairly anti AI and this would limit computer controlled ships a lot. Besides crew are cheap, it’s the space they take up that is expensive :roll:
Mega corps may well use them for dull cargo runs. They are perfect for x boats if the scouts run out of those loony x boat pilots. Long duration recon would also make sense with purely computer controlled scouts. A 100Dton drone that could jump somewhere, spend a year on station monitoring a system while powering itself with solar panels or very long duration cells then jump home. No crew to go made or need food.
In Terra/Sol given that the tech is overall higher and more widespread they would be very possible and many ships positions would likely be automated. However ships crew would be maintained for the same reason that the AI run factories have human support and supervisory staff. A shipping line would use human crew to gain access to the tax breaks for employing people rather than use purely computer controlled cargo ships. Passenger ships would be crewed for passenger comfort to keep everyone happy and occupied durring the jumps.
Given that multi week jumps are possible a lot of the ships crew on the bigger passenger ships are going to be there to look after the passengers not the crew.
It's the classic Andromeda Ascendant cop-out - it's a quantum phenomena requiring 'an observer' to work.
Which means AI can do it but needs to be orders of magnitude more sophisticated than merely being able to run the numbers. Custodian Null-834-D and most ancient ships from Secrets of the Ancients could manage it, for example, being far more sentient than most player characters.
Which means AI can do it but needs to be orders of magnitude more sophisticated than merely being able to run the numbers. Custodian Null-834-D and most ancient ships from Secrets of the Ancients could manage it, for example, being far more sentient than most player characters.
Maybe the AI ships are like those of the Culture and enjoy having organics around to "run" the ships - which is of course is what the Minds (AIs) actually do...........kind like benevolant pet owners.
Also worth checking out the novel Altered Carbon where the completely AI controlled and run hotel is "lonely" as people don't really like the idea.............and seldom stay. Actually a good character in the book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_Carbon
Also worth checking out the novel Altered Carbon where the completely AI controlled and run hotel is "lonely" as people don't really like the idea.............and seldom stay. Actually a good character in the book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_Carbon
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
CosmicGamer said:
I don't know, ask the Pioneer and Voyager space probes. Built with TL-6 technology, they are still functioning and have been in space since before most of you were born...
