unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)

[locarno24]

Unmanned. Not autonomous.
This is the difference above - the drones used by the US, which I agree they would never get rid of, are essentially glorified remotes. They're no different to a remote weapons station on a hummer, just with a bigger 'air gap' between the gun and the man with the X-Box pad.

An autonomous weapon - what I was referring to above - is one that can identify a target and take the decision to fire on its own without bothering to ask (or even inform) a man in the loop (hence why they fall under landmine legislation). The US doesn't use many - if any - such weapons. About the only one I can think of is the Phalanx CIWS.

 

[FreeTrav]

A number of years ago, I wrote http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/jumptune.html to address the perceived problem of jump being a week-long non-event. One of the 'side effects' of the rules presented was that unmanned jumps Just Don't Work.

 

[F33D]

Unmanned. Not autonomous.

No, AUTONOMOUS.

 

[barnest2]

No, AUTONOMOUS.

Um... no. The weapon carrying drones currently in use cannot fire on a target without human interaction. They may well be able to manoeuvre and acquire targets autonomously, but its still a human pulling the trigger.
The phalanx (and other CIWS) does indeed fire without human intervention... but then they're only activated in engagements

 

[F33D]

No, AUTONOMOUS.

Um... no. The weapon carrying drones currently in use

I'm talking FUTURE deployment. I watched a test of an Army AUTONOMOUS fighting vehicle recently. AF & Navy also have air attack autonomous vehicles in testing right now.

 

[barnest2]

Links please?
Because I highly doubt any weapon systen in the near future will be able to fire without human interference...

 

[lastbesthope]

THe key philosophical difference is between "able to" and "allowed to"

For instance, the CIWS is allowed to once given permission, as are many other weapon systems in development. Once they are allowed to they are able to at will.

It's only a small step from there to them not needing to be allowed to.

LBH

 

[F33D]

Links please?
Because I highly doubt any weapon systen in the near future will be able to fire without human interference...

Sorry, can't link what I watched in person. In reality, 99% of the REALLY good stuff is not in the interwebtubes.

 

[rust]

Perhaps we should take a look at the official sources for the
development and use of autonomous weapon systems, like
for example the US Department of Defense, Defense Science
Board, Task Force Report: The Role of Autonomy in DoD Sy-
stems, published in July 2012.

The part important for our discussion is this here, from page 1
of the Executive Summary:

Autonomy is a capability (or a set of capabilities) that enables a particular action of a system
to be automatic or, within programmed boundaries, “self-governing.” Unfortunately, the word
“autonomy” often conjures images in the press and the minds of some military leaders of
computers making independent decisions and taking uncontrolled action. While the reality of
what autonomy is and can do is quite different from those conjured images, these concerns
are—in some cases—limiting its adoption. It should be made clear that all autonomous systems
are supervised by human operators at some level, and autonomous systems’ software embodies
the designed limits on the actions and decisions delegated to the computer. Instead of viewing
autonomy as an intrinsic property of an unmanned vehicle in isolation, the design and operation
of autonomous systems needs to be considered in terms of human-system collaboration.

[And now I hope that quoting this paper is perfectly legal ... :? ]

 

[Vyrolakos]

Is there really any question that the more advanced tech levels available in the Traveller universe could produce fully AUTONOMOUS ships capable of jumping? :?

Surely, it must just come down to legality/morality/social issues.

Besides, if you want a good reason not to allow 'AI' controlled and operated starships, may I point the honourable readers to Traveller TNE.

(Is referencing TNE in a forum discussion about AI's, the equivalent of invoking Godwin's Law? :? :lol: )

 

[rust]

... it calls up bad things (Similar to asking for pirats)

Not to mention jump torpedoes and Aslan slippers ... 8)

 

[locarno24]

Is there really any question that the more advanced tech levels available in the Traveller universe could produce fully AUTONOMOUS ships capable of jumping?

Sufficiently advanced - no. Ancient tech AIs are every bit as 'sentient' as humans.
What F33D was originally asking for was the reverse; can people think of a good (i.e. player nit-picking proof reason) why they can't; to justify not having unmanned ships in his games. Hence the comment about observers.

In reality, 99% of the REALLY good stuff is not in the interwebtubes.

I must say my experience doesn't agree, but hey-ho. It gets depressing sometimes that tyou can spend ages in the technical library and then subsequently find the same damn thing on google images...

 

[F33D]

Besides, if you want a good reason not to allow 'AI' controlled and operated starships, may I point the honourable readers to Traveller TNE.

(Is referencing TNE in a forum discussion about AI's, the equivalent of invoking Godwin's Law? :? :lol: )

TNE was about a "life form" that could exist as an EM entity & a silicon life form. Pretty stupid story line.

 

[F33D]

I must say my experience doesn't agree, but hey-ho. It gets depressing sometimes that tyou can spend ages in the technical library and then subsequently find the same damn thing on google images...

I'm talking about public domain. Ya aren't going to find the F-22 weapon control s/w on the net nor, in a public technical library.

 

[Vyrolakos]

Pretty stupid story line.

Agreed, it was bloody terrible.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Pretty stupid story line.

Agreed, it was bloody terrible.

Ok players you notice that your computer is starting to glitch, the screens are jumping and random numbers are scrolling across the screen.

OK, TNE game so we know what that means. What do I need to roll for the firewall and antivirus software to stop it.

It went straight through.

Hey ref I told you I have computer 4 and set them up myself, its not the windows 7001 crap, its top of the range software.

The virus went straight through without being noticed on the radio signal you just received............

Riiight ok, your the ref. So it’s in the active memory. Isolate the main computer, cut the links to the other systems, put the power plant, drives and life support under local control. Reboot the main computer and clear its active programs.

That didn't work its still there and its taking over your ship........

Fine shut down the main computer, run a wipe routine on the hard memory and reboot from the backups.

That didn't work..............

Erm why not, there is no way it could survive the wipe.

It has corrupted your backups...............

What the ones on optical chips in the ships safe? ? ?

Erm its still there...................

If you say so ref, lets check the other computers and the systems like power plant and drive controllers.

They are also corrupted, its everywhere.................

What it corrupted the Optical ROM chips that are in the drive and power plant controllers that are specifically shielded against suffering any form of damage or overwrite due to them being next to the Jump drive and a ruddy great Fusion pile.

Yes they are all corrupted by the virus........ Oh and the air is now bleeding out of the ship.

Wait I thought we put life support on manual.

The virus has taken over life support anyway................

Pull the plug, physically turn off the life support unit, we have enough air in the ship for several hours.

That doesn't work, the virus has control of life support.............

Erm the engineer reaches round the back of the life support unit and pulls out the plug or whatever he does.

The air is still bleeding out of the rooms............

Sigh, ok into vacc suits everyone.

They are not working, the life support units are shut down......................

Sorry, the vacc suits are down, how???

They have radios which allowed the virus to access them..............

Vacc suit life support is an idiot level micro processor just big enough to maintain air levels, it cannot possibly run anything as complex as a semi sentient virus.

The virus is very small..................


Long pause at this point


So anyone fancy a game of D&D, we can start new characters and run through the new pathfinder series. :roll:

 

[alex_greene]

Pretty stupid story line.

Agreed, it was bloody terrible.

So anyone fancy a game of D&D, we can start new characters and run through the new pathfinder series. :roll:

LMAO Thank you for this!

 

[F33D]

]Agreed, it was bloody terrible.

So anyone fancy a game of D&D, we can start new characters and run through the new pathfinder series. :roll:

LMAO Thank you for this!

Ditto. I needed a chuckle.

 

[locarno24]

Ya aren't going to find the F-22 weapon control s/w on the net nor, in a public technical library.

Nor to some extent in the F-22 . Although it's mostly moved on from having software tantrums to just gassing the aircrew directly these days.


Yeah.... the Virus made no sense. Equally, why the hell did everyone suddenly start buying these new chips. No matter how much better they may be, why do I need this much processing power to run a household appliance?

We ended up using a modified version of the story - making the virus a nasty swarm-sentient parasite. If anyone's played Homeworld Cataclysm, think of The Beast. It's a far, far scarier concept...

"They're turning around and coming back at us!"
"Must have been compromised by the infection."
"It's killed the crew?"
"Not exactly."