unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)

[rust]

Other than this brilliant observation, do you have anything worthwhile to add to this discussion? :roll:

Take a cold shower. People tend to get banned for this kind
of post, and some of your other posts are so interesting that
I might miss you. :wink:

 

[F33D]

Other than this brilliant observation, do you have anything worthwhile to add to this discussion? :roll:

Take a cold shower. People tend to get banned for this kind
of post, and some of your other posts are so interesting that
I might miss you. :wink:

If they ban someone for replying to that kind of tripe, it isn't a site I want to visit anyway. But, I appreciate the sentiment. I really like your Trav setting BTW. Did the players adapt to the water world well?

 

[rust]

Did the players adapt to the water world well?

It went quite well until I had to move and to get used to
a new and rather time consuming job.

 

[alex_greene]

Of course, the last thing they need is for a capital ship to acquire sentience and become capable of running itself with a pure robot crew. Last thing you need is two or three great big Tigress-class turning up on your planet's doorstep with an ultimatum to kneel before your new robot overlords ... Virus Vampire Fleet, anyone?

 

[F33D]

Of course, the last thing they need is for a capital ship to acquire sentience and become capable of running itself with a pure robot crew. Last thing you need is two or three great big Tigress-class turning up on your planet's doorstep with an ultimatum to kneel before your new robot overlords ... Virus Vampire Fleet, anyone?

:shock: that wouldn't be good.

 

[F33D]

Did the players adapt to the water world well?

It went quite well until I had to move and to get used to
a new and rather time consuming job.

Sorry to hear about the disruption but, glad you have employment. It is really bad over here right now on that front.

 

[AndrewW]

So if used at all it is typically in a M-class starfrighter hauling 20 Megatons of unrefined ores and the crew in cold sleep with MU-TH-UR running the ship

But if they are all in cold sleep someone might get their classified route and hijack the ship, oh wait though they forgot about the extra passanger on board who isn't in cold sleep...

 

[Vyrolakos]

Do you have them in your game? Or, do you have a rule that prevents it? I don't like the idea and need some ideas for a "logical" rule.

As I see it, it's purely a setting decision. If automated jump ships were possible, the X-Boat network would surely make use of them.

I believe that if you allow widespread use of fully automated jump ships, it turns into a different Traveller universe.

As for a 'logical' rule, how about:

It has actually been tried before and due to a terrible catastrophe that resulted in millions being killed when an automated jump ship crashed into a starport due to 'unforeseen automated equipment failure'. It resulted in Imperium wide legislation requiring all starships to have a minimum number of 'competence certified' sentient crew members while operating in Imperial space.

This allows for the technology to actually exist, but restricts its (legal) use in Imperial space.

 

[AndrewW]

Actually the current day control systems are double or triple redundancy with voting, auto-reboot etc. and have been that way for decades. Add in that SPS/programmable controllers are more rugged than universal computers and the boxes can take a kicking.

Don't forget the incident with the NASA space shuttle which has five computers, four primary and one backup. The backup computer found a problem and was shutting down the others, after a lot of time was spent diagnosising the problem on the computers that where shut down by the backup computer the problem turned out to be in the backup computer...

 

[far-trader]

I recall reading once that 2 or 3 interfaced systems is the best for fault detection cross checking and that adding more than 3 into the loop actually introduces false fault detection issues just like that of the space shuttle example above. I can't recall the source of the information though, nor confirm it's validity.

 

[F33D]

Actually the current day control systems are double or triple redundancy with voting, auto-reboot etc. and have been that way for decades. Add in that SPS/programmable controllers are more rugged than universal computers and the boxes can take a kicking.

Don't forget the incident with the NASA space shuttle which has five computers, four primary and one backup. The backup computer found a problem and was shutting down the others, after a lot of time was spent diagnosising the problem on the computers that where shut down by the backup computer the problem turned out to be in the backup computer...

Yep, another good reason to not use 1st gen, TL 6, micro computer systems to run a TL 12 star ship... :lol:

 

[CosmicGamer]

Don't forget the incident with the NASA space shuttle which has five computers, four primary and one backup.

And the Mars probe lost due to a math error.

 

[AndrewW]

Don't forget the incident with the NASA space shuttle which has five computers, four primary and one backup.

And the Mars probe lost due to a math error.

Though that's an example of human error being introduced rather then an automated system failing...

 

[locarno24]

Also worth checking out the novel Altered Carbon where the completely AI controlled and run hotel is "lonely" as people don't really like the idea.............and seldom stay. Actually a good character in the book.

That and they probably weren't too keen on the optional extras it had had fitted. Like the gatling gun in the reception desk.

Truth. At our TL of 7, automated comp systems used in space craft run for years often without a glitch. At TL 12 & above (with back up comps) basically will never go down.

Agreed. The comment about Andromeda is that it's a way to 'compel' an organic pilot as part of the FTL process. It's a handwave, but as noted FTL itself is a handwave, and it justifies a human presence on any ship.

Without a scientific rule, It comes down to the 'why put a pilot in the plane?' argument. Most accidents are due to some sort of human error - so remove the human and remove the error. The counter-argument is that humans are better at recovering from unexpected disaster - there are plenty of modes of transport that could today be automated and aren't. Fully autonomous aircraft are juuuuuust about coming in now*, but trains could easily be driverless and yet very, very few are.

Ultimately, humans are just the ultimate programmable remotes. The average competent merchant spacer probably has comms/0, sensors/0, pilot/0 mechanic/0 and maybe a couple of others; it'd take an awful lot of specialist systems to duplicate him.


that said, there are just so many advantages to jump-capable drone ships that you'd imagine they'd see a lot of use if it's possible. In the current setting, the one reference I know of - and which I've used - is the 'jump torpedo' message buoy, essentially the ancient equivalent of the x-boat network - referred to in Secrets of the Ancients. However, that is a race at TL verging-on-silly and more than capable of creating self-aware AI or custom organic computer components or whatever is required to work around a law-of-science restriction. Telling the laws of physics to sit down and shut the hell up is Grandfather's stock in trade.


* And amusingly are much more crash-prone, despite not having human error to contend with.

 

[alex_greene]

The concept can be extended to unmanned drone scout ships, sent ahead to a system to scout the area, take readings of fleet strengths or scan the anomalous reading close up, then where possible jump back with readings.

 

[locarno24]

Indeed. If you can fit a return module in, a 'recon drone' is a good plan for looking at any system where jumping in is likely to be a terminal experience. Yes, they're expensive for a 'one-shot' device but then so is an S-Type scout, and the physics of jump means it's not going to be any faster whatever you do.

 

[alex_greene]

Populate the scout ship with a crew of specialised robots - Pilot, Astrogator, engiineer droid commanding a slave crew of repair and engineering drones, and specialists in sensors to do the scanning. They don't need life support, crew quarters or low berths, which saves up space for survey drones or highly advanced sensors and recording equipment.
For the sake of the adventure, this would have to be a rare enough occasion to want to warrant it only for the sake of the adventure. Of course, this could in and of itself lead to a whole bunch of adventures, such as ...

- The drone scout made it there and misjumped back, and is now somewhere out in the home system's Kuiper belt, where it jumped back into normal space somehow fused inside a dirty ice comet. The data is too valuable to not collect, so the adventurers have a long trip out to make.

- The drone scout made it back, but with an extra passenger or two - lots of knee-high leathery eggs embedded in a thick, sticky resinous secretion all along the floor of the cargo area.

- The drone scout is tumbling out of control towards the local star. The characters have only a short window of time to catch up with it before it burns up, destroying the vital data it needs.

- The drone scout ship has fallen into the hands of someone who is selling the ship, plus its data, to the highest bidder.

- The drone scout has been found derelict, stripped of the data. Somebody wanted the data kept secret.

- The drone scout returns, but the robots no longer respond to the service's remote override controls. The ship has been fitted with a TL 17 device and the engines rigged to overload with enough energy to turn the point of origin into a cloud of fine ionised vapour a light-minute across.

That's six ideas I came up with off the top of my head just now.

 

[F33D]

Truth. At our TL of 7, automated comp systems used in space craft run for years often without a glitch. At TL 12 & above (with back up comps) basically will never go down.

Agreed. The comment about Andromeda is that it's a way to 'compel' an organic pilot as part of the FTL process. It's a handwave, but as noted FTL itself is a handwave, and it justifies a human presence on any ship.

Without a scientific rule, It comes down to the 'why put a pilot in the plane?' argument. Most accidents are due to some sort of human error - so remove the human and remove the error.

Exactly. With computer tech that is many orders of magnitude better than today's, I had to have a "logical", technical reason to not have unmanned FTL ships. Difficult to come up with. :|

 

[Lemnoc]

Exactly. With computer tech that is many orders of magnitude better than today's, I had to have a "logical", technical reason to not have unmanned FTL ships. Difficult to come up with. :|

Well, you could rule that jumpspace itself has a dampening effect on higher end electronics, essentially dumbing down any advanced computer. That leads to all kinds of interesting side issues, like the crew having to actually cook while in jumpspace as replicators and whatnot cannot function. Astrogation by slide rule, etc.

It keeps the Man in Manned Space Flight.

 

[F33D]

Exactly. With computer tech that is many orders of magnitude better than today's, I had to have a "logical", technical reason to not have unmanned FTL ships. Difficult to come up with. :|

Well, you could rule that jumpspace itself has a dampening effect on higher end electronics, essentially dumbing down any advanced computer. That leads to all kinds of interesting side issues, like the crew having to actually cook while in jumpspace as replicators and whatnot cannot function. Astrogation by slide rule, etc.

It keeps the Man in Manned Space Flight.

It also leads to reactor failure, life support failure, jump nav computer failure, etc., etc. Nonstarter.