Traveller Release Schedule 2024

[paltrysum]

So how do you maintain a thing long-term if the entire basis for your civilization is follow whoever is most popular? Projects would be started and stopped midway due to changing priorities.

Well, you've set up a bit of a straw man there; maybe pigeon-holed the Vargr into too small a container. What you've said is true, but maybe they are more than that as well. Maybe all those pots of populism that boil over contribute to a successful testing ground of sorts, where successful packs take all the failures, pick them back up, and then evolve them into finished, more successful, technologically advanced states.

No idea how this would work, but stranger things have prevailed in animal evolution on Terra. Adding the complexity of Ancients manipulation of their genetics and relocation to a world hundreds of parsecs away from their world of origin, with purpose (the Ancients had them in store for something), and it has somehow worked.

I've always thought the evolution of raiding culture was their "immune system" at work. Raiders eat away at the stuff that isn't working, at stuff that is too weak to persist. If raiders can destroy it, it wasn't meant to be.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Well, you've set up a bit of a straw man there; maybe pigeon-holed the Vargr into too small a container. What you've said is true, but maybe they are more than that as well. Maybe all those pots of populism that boil over contribute to a successful testing ground of sorts, where successful packs take all the failures, pick them back up, and then evolve them into finished, more successful, technologically advanced states.

No idea how this would work, but stranger things have prevailed in animal evolution on Terra. Adding the complexity of Ancients manipulation of their genetics and relocation to a world hundreds of parsecs away from their world of origin, with purpose (the Ancients had them in store for something), and it has somehow worked.

I've always thought the evolution of raiding culture was their "immune system" at work. Raiders eat away at the stuff that isn't working, at stuff that is too weak to persist. If raiders can destroy it, it wasn't meant to be.

I agree completely. I have no idea how they work so as a Ref it is very hard for Me to run adventures in Vargr Space. Treating all of Vargr Space as tinpot dictatorships feels like I am short-changing the Vargr. I think they should be way cooler than My current understanding of them allows them to be.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Is every human country/culture on Earth today the same? Do people have the same universal values based on their instincts?

No.

So it is pretty lazy to tar all Vargr with the same brush, especially when the whole concept of alpha/beta pack mentality has been disproven in wolves by the original proponent of the idea no less.

 

[Micky]

I agree completely. I have no idea how they work so as a Ref it is very hard for Me to run adventures in Vargr Space. Treating all of Vargr Space as tinpot dictatorships feels like I am short-changing the Vargr. I think they should be way cooler than My current understanding of them allows them to be.

in absence of real detail about the Vargr States you sort of are left with the default... for some of the border rump states bordering the Imperium. That is the huge hole in the setting and thus a HUGE opportunity for Mongoose to really tread upon new ground. The vast interior of the Vargr Extents. One the K'Khree sure don't want to go to war with. To say they are all corsairs or chaotic entities just a ham sandwich away from falling apart is short-changing them. Easily could be seen, asthe setting history plays upon it, that it is huge varied area that is high tech and highly capable.

It's like the point I've raised a few times. Did one planet.. Terra.. beat the many thousands of worlds of the First Imperium. Come on... really? Did it? Of course it did, but alone? Nope.

The Terran Confederation only had tp defeat a fraction of what the thousands of ships and tens of trillions of the First Imperium could have thrown at it.. for the majority of Vilani navy and it's resources were off coreward fighting a losing battle and getting overrun by the Vargr. Not piddly corsairs but heavy line, comparable high tech, Vargr ships The history books have been very silent about that. You get the event buried deep in old canon books, but zero detail about how they overran multiple Vilani sectors, only that they did do so. The Vargr states really have been short changed in canon and the lack of Mongoose treatment. To this point at least. The Vargr really aren't perhaps the most interesting race .. their areas of Charted Space might be the biggest untapped gold mine for creative detailing.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Is every human country/culture on Earth today the same? Do people have the same universal values based on their instincts?

No.

So it is pretty lazy to tar all Vargr with the same brush, especially when the whole concept of alpha/beta pack mentality has been disproven in wolves by the original proponent of the idea no less.

They all use CHA. I didn't tar them with that brush, the writers did. The very mechanics say that they are all bound by CHA. Same way the Aslan are bound by TER and Humans are bound by SOC. Those "universal values" are written into the very mechanics of the game.

So, call the writers lazy all you want. I didn't come up with it.

Also, since when did reality have any impact on Traveller? The computer model they use is 40+ years out of date, not to mention the other legacy stuff that has been disproven since then. That doesn't change the game. We just acknowledge that in-game reality and out of game reality are different. Usually, annoying different. lol

Edit: Oh wait! Is this the part where someone tries to explain to Me that Charisma doesn't mean charisma, the same way Population doesn't mean Population or TL doesn't mean TL? If you look up the different races, you will see that this is true. LL and Government Codes are different for each race. None of them mean the same thing they mean for human worlds.

 

[PeterFdH]

Pleased to get my hard copy of Wrath today. Mysteries of the Ancients is really good in terms of story and my players are digging it but the book is full of typos, missing information and errors (which I have posted on another thread). Disappointing then to see a typo on the first full page of text.

I cannot comment on the rest of the book yet so this might be it. It looks great and this isn't a dealbreaker - I believe in what Mongoose are doing - but it would be good if such things could be looked at. If it means a slight delay to get a perfect end product then I for one would be fine with that.

 

[Enaknomolos]

I agree completely. I have no idea how they work so as a Ref it is very hard for Me to run adventures in Vargr Space. Treating all of Vargr Space as tinpot dictatorships feels like I am short-changing the Vargr. I think they should be way cooler than My current understanding of them allows them to be.

I'm a long way from an expert - but my understanding of Vagr society is that it's pretty different to human populism. The books (certainly from the classic module to 1st ed Mongoose, I'd have to look again at Aliens of Chartered Space) stress that leaders only keep charisma if their actions are actually successful. Human populists seem to mostly retain charisma by doing what is emotionally appealing to their audience. In other words, Vargr judge their leaders against much more objective measures than humans do.

In addition, their preference for smaller groupings means that leaders will be measured on their material success against actually existing alternatives rather judged according to the the sort of ideological just-so stories us humans tend to go for. That dynamic could plausibly drive technological development and attention to infrastructure.

 

[Condottiere]

Vested (self) interest.

Short term capitalism.

It's not so much that the Vargr can't reach for the stars, it's more that the wind under their wings dies down.

 

[Vormaerin]

Why do we think that a research team isn't going to thrive under the Vargr model? Or a business? Sure, the CEO is going to have to maintain personal contact with his subordinates, who will do the same with their subordinates.

People think that Vargr charisma is just charm. It's competence and ability to get things done. Vargr aren't going to stay in dead end jobs working for incompetent bosses. Zombie businesses aren't going to last.

But if your science group keeps putting out cool stuff, everyone's going to be super motivated. And if Atuerzes is a better project leader than Gvargeul, he's gonna end up running the show and keeping the place productive.

 

[Condottiere]

Vargrs will have lots of startups.

But, how many psychopaths do they have with the sustained patience to guide a multistellar corporation?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Why do we think that a research team isn't going to thrive under the Vargr model? Or a business? Sure, the CEO is going to have to maintain personal contact with his subordinates, who will do the same with their subordinates.

People think that Vargr charisma is just charm. It's competence and ability to get things done. Vargr aren't going to stay in dead end jobs working for incompetent bosses. Zombie businesses aren't going to last.

But if your science group keeps putting out cool stuff, everyone's going to be super motivated. And if Atuerzes is a better project leader than Gvargeul, he's gonna end up running the show and keeping the place productive.

Looking at the Vargr history, they keep fracturing a splintering every time a leader dies or a person with higher Charisma comes along. I can't even figure out how they manage to run ships larger than ACS. Your chief engineer raises his CHA and now it is higher than the captain. The Captain is deposed and the Chief Engineer becomes captain with an entirely different set of priorities.

Have any of you ever been part of projects in school or at work where the person in charge changes halfway through the project? The new person has their own ideas, their own priorities, and their own methodology. In general this derails the original project and the final result looks nothing like what was originally envisioned. How do you maintain a chain of command aboard a military vessel? I suppose you could use pirate ships from Earth as an example of this. Democratic, but also very chaotic. Not conducive to long-term planning. How you run a society without long-term planning, I don't know. This is kind of how the US is currently, a total lack of planning for anything lasting longer than 4 or 8 years. A Society built of Charisma is not a society built on intelligence. In US elections, the best candidate doesn't win, the most popular one does, even if he (or she eventually) is a moron. The only reason that the US hasn't failed already is because We are a bunch of money-grubbing fanatics, so Our businesses are strong (more or less anyhow) and Our political leadership is "weak" at best. I have no evidence to back this up, but I am fairly sure that the US is the most fanatically capitalist country on the planet. Which brings Me back to the Vargr, they do not seem to be as money-grubbing, so I am kind of at a loss to explain how they can even build a 100kton ship, no less crew one.

If I ever want to run adventures including Vargr or in Vargr Space, I need to figure this crap out.

Although, I avoid Solomani Space at all costs in My games. So, it is not just Vargr Space that I avoid running in currently.

If it is success, as you mentioned above, then okay, but every successful person that I have ever met, was only successful a few times, and failed a ton while constantly striving to be better. How does that fit in with the Vargr? If they judge success, but you have failed more than you have succeeded? What would that mean?

 

[Anstett]

If it is success, as you mentioned above, then okay, but every successful person that I have ever met, was only successful a few times, and failed a ton while constantly striving to be better. How does that fit in with the Vargr? If they judge success, but you have failed more than you have succeeded? What would that mean?

Doing cool things will attract attention too.

Personal charisma can build a base, use that base to build a company that builds rockets. Sure the first few blow up but look at how cool and fun that experiment was. Once you get a success the rest of the group will all rise in charisma/standing and attract more people with more skills and the feedback loop continues.

 

[Enaknomolos]

If it is success, as you mentioned above, then okay, but every successful person that I have ever met, was only successful a few times, and failed a ton while constantly striving to be better. How does that fit in with the Vargr? If they judge success, but you have failed more than you have succeeded? What would that mean?

In 1e Mongoose, Vargr are totally onboard with that. It explicitly says that losing charisma is just seen as a spur to do better next time. 2e seems to have dropped that bit in the compressed format, unless I've just missed it on a scan

1e: 'If a Vargr loses Charisma he will not necessarily lose face amongst his brethren. Adversity is often seen as an opportunity to raise ones Charisma rather than a burden to be suffered. Vargr will often take risks in the hope of improving their Charisma but this does not always make them reckless, such situations will be considered with care before being undertaken.'

 

[Condottiere]

It also depends with whose capital he's playing with.

Young Vargr are quite willing to take risks.

Those with family probably won't.

 

[MasterGwydion]

In 1e Mongoose, Vargr are totally onboard with that. It explicitly says that losing charisma is just seen as a spur to do better next time. 2e seems to have dropped that bit in the compressed format, unless I've just missed it on a scan

1e: 'If a Vargr loses Charisma he will not necessarily lose face amongst his brethren. Adversity is often seen as an opportunity to raise ones Charisma rather than a burden to be suffered. Vargr will often take risks in the hope of improving their Charisma but this does not always make them reckless, such situations will be considered with care before being undertaken.'

Ahhh... That makes more sense. Thank you!

Now I just wonder, when does a Vargr's "face" or reputation match his CHA? Does that mean that his SOC won't change right away, but may in a month if the Vargr does nothing to rectify it?

 

[Galadrion]

Now I just wonder, when does a Vargr's "face" or reputation match his CHA? Does that mean that his SOC won't change right away, but may in a month if the Vargr does nothing to rectify it?

My take on this question is that it will vary by the observer: some will be influenced right away ("Well, he f'ed up; guess he's no good and I'll need to find a new boss") and some will be more cautious (Hm, that didn't work... but he's had setbacks before, learned from them, and come back bigger and better than ever. Let's see what he comes up with this time"). A failure in a venture will mean that a Vargr will shed some "fair-weather" followers, but he'll only lose the die-hards if he gives up or continues to fail... and a smart leader will remember those who stuck by him in the bad times and will reward them.

 

[Seffix]

My problem with the Vargr is that they are basically all Populists. I have yet to see a successful, long-term Populist government. If TL is more than just tech advances, as people on here have said, than there is no way the Vargr could maintain a high TL infrastructure. Heck, look at the US which is only mildly Populist. We haven't maintained or updated Our infrastructure for over 80 years.

My players haven't made it off Emerald yet, but if Gvurrdon gets more love, they may head that way. I mean, my plans have them heading towards the Sword Worlds and Darrian Confederation, but I'm just the GM; where they go is up to them.

My take is that Vargr have internalized/ingrained systems that allow their societies to mitigate damage to their infrastructural/technological cohesiveness amidst total political chaos. The Junk Dealer and Scrounger careers are institutionalized (inasmuch as that word can be applied to the Vargr (I'm sure there is a better word for this...)) in ways that allow for a counterintuitively swift realignment of whatever was needed into whatever is needed now.

In my version, the change will be dramatic, the change will be monumental, but the Vargr will adapt to and start working to make the new system work for them.

 

[Condottiere]

They could rule by committee.

Nine seems a good number.

The most charismatic canine becomes chairmutt, and will try to sway decisions through animal magnetism.

 

[MasterGwydion]

My players haven't made it off Emerald yet, but if Gvurrdon gets more love, they may head that way. I mean, my plans have them heading towards the Sword Worlds and Darrian Confederation, but I'm just the GM; where they go is up to them.

My take is that Vargr have internalized/ingrained systems that allow their societies to mitigate damage to their infrastructural/technological cohesiveness amidst total political chaos. The Junk Dealer and Scrounger careers are institutionalized (inasmuch as that word can be applied to the Vargr (I'm sure there is a better word for this...)) in ways that allow for a counterintuitively swift realignment of whatever was needed into whatever is needed now.

In my version, the change will be dramatic, the change will be monumental, but the Vargr will adapt to and start working to make the new system work for them.

This is a good train of thought. I like it. I do hope Gvurrdon and the Vargr get more attention. I would love to learn more about them! I love the Trojan Reach, mainly due to PoD. If something similar were done for Gvurrdon, that would be excellent. Some massive sandbox campaign with all its ancillary adventures like PoD.

 

[Talon Greyfeather]

I though the Alien Module 2 for MgT 1e on the Vargr was pretty good. There was quite a bit of information on society and culture and how charisma played into it. It's been a good resource. Speaking of corsairs - from page 40:

Although the life of a corsair is appealing to the Vargr mentality,
these space pirates only constitute less than 10% of Vargr
society. Unfortunately all Vargr have been tarred with the same
brush even though the corsairs are hated and feared by many
Vargr that have chosen a more honest way of life.

They are an interesting race, imho