Traveller Manufacturing Rules

[J. L. Brown]

Doesn't it already do that to a degree? The refinery does break everything down, but the smelter has waste when it's converting the ore to raw materials.

The Smelter is the only thing which explicitly does it; everything else seems to be assumed to be 100% efficient.

 

[Condottiere]

I tend to think that would be the capability to extract low percentage ore, economically feasibly.

Recycling seems to be somewhat of a scam, but presumably if a conscious effort is made between materials utilized for manufacture and packaging, and recovery, from the start of the product cycle, then you'd see something tangible.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Doesn't it already do that to a degree? The refinery does break everything down, but the smelter has waste when it's converting the ore to raw materials.

Also, both laser rifles and high-tech washing machines are made with the same type of Manufacturing Plant. Advanced.

As far as an idea for "waste" goes... Use your TL Mod for currency and apply it to the Inputs and Outputs of the Mining and Manufacturing Plants. Post-Scarcity is TL-17, so use that as your base and work the numbers backwards.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Also, both laser rifles and high-tech washing machines are made with the same type of Manufacturing Plant. Advanced.

As far as an idea for "waste" goes... Use your TL Mod for currency and apply it to the Inputs and Outputs of the Mining and Manufacturing Plants. Post-Scarcity is TL-17, so use that as your base and work the numbers backwards.

Yeah; but I would sort of like to see:
TL 12 Alloys & TL 12 Electronics -> (Advanced Manufacturing Plant -- TL 12 Laser Components) -> Laser Weapon Components (TL12) -> (Advanced Manufacturing Plant -- TL 12 Laser Weapons) -> TL 12 Laser Weapon

as distinct from:
TL 12 Alloys & TL 12 Electronics -> (Advanced Manufacturing Plant -- TL 12 Consumer Appliances) -> Consumer Appliance Components (TL12) -> (Advanced Manufacturing Plant -- TL 12 Consumer Appliances) -> TL 12 Washing Machine

It is okay for stuff up to the 'Commodity' level be (to a degree) generic at a particular TL; these are basic stuff that go into everything. But specific 'Finished Goods' should require specific components; it creates dramatic situations (well, as dramatic as economics can be) where stuff can run short. And it makes building a 'complete TL 15 civilization in a box' harder to do, which is a good thing; there are just too many pieces to conveniently carry around in a back pocket.

As to TL 17 being post-scarcity: Maybe sooner in real life; but Traveller does not really seem to have a 'post-scarcity' level. I am okay with waste being reduced at every TL, but even at Traveller maximum (35?) I think there is still some (very little, perhaps) waste and loss. My initial idea was something like (1+(35 - TL)) / (2x(35 + TL)). I dunno; that gives about 50% waste at TL 0 and only 0.7% waste at TL 35 -- but maybe that is too much waste at TL 35, or just not extreme enough in general

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yeah; but I would sort of like to see:
TL 12 Alloys & TL 12 Electronics -> (Advanced Manufacturing Plant -- TL 12 Laser Components) -> Laser Weapon Components (TL12) -> (Advanced Manufacturing Plant -- TL 12 Laser Weapons) -> TL 12 Laser Weapon

as distinct from:
TL 12 Alloys & TL 12 Electronics -> (Advanced Manufacturing Plant -- TL 12 Consumer Appliances) -> Consumer Appliance Components (TL12) -> (Advanced Manufacturing Plant -- TL 12 Consumer Appliances) -> TL 12 Washing Machine

It is okay for stuff up to the 'Commodity' level be (to a degree) generic at a particular TL; these are basic stuff that go into everything. But specific 'Finished Goods' should require specific components; it creates dramatic situations (well, as dramatic as economics can be) where stuff can run short. And it makes building a 'complete TL 15 civilization in a box' harder to do, which is a good thing; there are just too many pieces to conveniently carry around in a back pocket.

I usually just do this at the Referee-level. When I design a group of Manufacturing Plants to scale up over time, I add 1 ton of production of each of the things that Manufacturing Plant can produce.

As to TL 17 being post-scarcity: Maybe sooner in real life; but Traveller does not really seem to have a 'post-scarcity' level. I am okay with waste being reduced at every TL, but even at Traveller maximum (35?) I think there is still some (very little, perhaps) waste and loss. My initial idea was something like (1+(35 - TL)) / (2x(35 + TL)). I dunno; that gives about 50% waste at TL 0 and only 0.7% waste at TL 35 -- but maybe that is too much waste at TL 35, or just not extreme enough in general

CSC pg. 7,

"As a general rule, the listed fabrication chambers can
fully manufacture any non-animate item available two
Tech Levels or more prior to their own Tech Level. For
instance, a basic fabricator could fully manufacture TL6
items, including auto pistols and even vacuum tube
radios, while an improved fabrication chamber could
manufacture a transistor radio, portable computer or
other TL8 electronics. This progression holds until the
debut of the TL17 advanced fabrication chamber, a
device capable of turning a society into a post-scarcity
civilisation, with nearly any item available on demand,
assuming access to the proper raw materials."

 

[J. L. Brown]

I usually just do this at the Referee-level. When I design a group of Manufacturing Plants to scale up over time, I add 1 ton of production of each of the things that Manufacturing Plant can produce.

That seems to imply that (10 for Basic, + 25 for Advanced, + 50 for Specialist, + 20 for Agricultural =) 105 dTons is a complete TL of all production of 22+ types of goods. To me, that appears to be a very low bar; I would require (at least) six different 'Basic' plants (one for each Basic Commodity), five different 'Advanced' plants (one for each different Advanced Good), five different 'Specialist' plants (one for each different Specialist Good), and six different 'Agricultural' plants (one for each different Agricultural Good), for more than 605 dTons -- and that is still getting off very easy. Each type of Basic, Agricultural, & Advanced plant should require specific parts made by a particular type of Basic plant; and every type of Specialist plant should require specific parts made by a particular type of Advanced plant. Creating a production web for every product at a TL, sufficient to raise an entire planets TL by one should require hundreds of new Manufacturing Plants -- it should not be easily or casually done.

CSC pg. 7,

"As a general rule, the listed fabrication chambers can fully manufacture any non-animate item available two Tech Levels or more prior to their own Tech Level. For instance, a basic fabricator could fully manufacture TL6 items, including auto pistols and even vacuum tube radios, while an improved fabrication chamber could manufacture a transistor radio, portable computer or other TL8 electronics. This progression holds until the debut of the TL17 advanced fabrication chamber, a device capable of turning a society into a post-scarcity civilisation, with nearly any item available on demand, assuming access to the proper raw materials."

And that may be the only place where post-scarcity is mentioned in all of Traveller. Note that TL 17 'Advanced' Fabricators can make any item up to their own TL -- but they still require time, power, and materials, and (unclear) might produce waste; ie they are not 'whatever you want, for free' machines.

Post-scarcity societies are difficult to imagine; and extremely difficult to game in -- so I believe Traveller hand-waves an assumption that 'There are still things scarce enough to be valuable' at all TLs. If there is a possibility of true post-scarcity, it should be more remote than just one or two TLs away from where the PCs start.

 

[Condottiere]

The United Federation of Planets believes it is.

Every interstellar polity around it is just jealous of it's free freedom fries.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That seems to imply that (10 for Basic, + 25 for Advanced, + 50 for Specialist, + 20 for Agricultural =) 105 dTons is a complete TL of all production of 22+ types of goods. To me, that appears to be a very low bar; I would require (at least) six different 'Basic' plants (one for each Basic Commodity), five different 'Advanced' plants (one for each different Advanced Good), five different 'Specialist' plants (one for each different Specialist Good), and six different 'Agricultural' plants (one for each different Agricultural Good), for more than 605 dTons -- and that is still getting off very easy. Each type of Basic, Agricultural, & Advanced plant should require specific parts made by a particular type of Basic plant; and every type of Specialist plant should require specific parts made by a particular type of Advanced plant. Creating a production web for every product at a TL, sufficient to raise an entire planets TL by one should require hundreds of new Manufacturing Plants -- it should not be easily or casually done.

I use the second method you describe. The one that has 605dtons. Any more in depth that that and it will become too complicated for most people to use.

And that may be the only place where post-scarcity is mentioned in all of Traveller. Note that TL 17 'Advanced' Fabricators can make any item up to their own TL -- but they still require time, power, and materials, and (unclear) might produce waste; ie they are not 'whatever you want, for free' machines.

Post-scarcity societies are difficult to imagine; and extremely difficult to game in -- so I believe Traveller hand-waves an assumption that 'There are still things scarce enough to be valuable' at all TLs. If there is a possibility of true post-scarcity, it should be more remote than just one or two TLs away from where the PCs start.

Traveller is already post-scarcity energy-wise with Fusion Power Plants. They only need water. By TL-17 nanobots can break down anything and turn it into just about anything. They can change materials at the molecular level. That means 0% waste. By TL-19, they can change matter on the quantum level. If that isn't post-scarcity, then I don't know what is. You can literally change anything into anything else, including building fully conscious sophonts with implanted memories and skills. That TL-19 bit on Fabricators is out of the Robot Handbook.

I have no problem with the post-scarcity stuff being only 2 or 4 TLs away. At best prototypes can be built but they are hugely expensive and can have some good disadvantages which can offset their usefulness until the technology matures. Other than, that, My players will never see any of that stuff anyhow.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I use the second method you describe. The one that has 605dtons. Any more in depth that that and it will become too complicated for most people to use.

Traveller is already post-scarcity energy-wise with Fusion Power Plants. They only need water. By TL-17 nanobots can break down anything and turn it into just about anything. They can change materials at the molecular level. That means 0% waste. By TL-19, they can change matter on the quantum level. If that isn't post-scarcity, then I don't know what is. You can literally change anything into anything else, including building fully conscious sophonts with implanted memories and skills. That TL-19 bit on Fabricators is out of the Robot Handbook.

I have no problem with the post-scarcity stuff being only 2 or 4 TLs away. At best prototypes can be built but they are hugely expensive and can have some good disadvantages which can offset their usefulness until the technology matures. Other than, that, My players will never see any of that stuff anyhow.

My players are living in the middle of that right now.

 

[J. L. Brown]

By TL-17 nanobots can break down anything and turn it into just about anything. They can change materials at the molecular level. That means 0% waste. By TL-19, they can change matter on the quantum level. If that isn't post-scarcity, then I don't know what is. You can literally change anything into anything else, including building fully conscious sophonts with implanted memories and skills. That TL-19 bit on Fabricators is out of the Robot Handbook.

I have no problem with the post-scarcity stuff being only 2 or 4 TLs away. At best prototypes can be built but they are hugely expensive and can have some good disadvantages which can offset their usefulness until the technology matures. Other than, that, My players will never see any of that stuff anyhow.

Considering that there are published campaigns that feature TL 25 civilizations and TL 25++ Yaskoydray himself, what technologies do you reserve beyond the perfectly 100% efficient at TL 19? Once you hit 'perfect' at the end of the scale, how do you fill up the Tech-tree for the remaining 16 Technology Levels? It is sort of like an explorer having a ancient map of Terra with thousands of miles of empty ocean marked with 'here be dragons' and 'Terra incognito' -- and then on day two of the grand expedition discovering "Welp, this is the edge of the world, time to go home".

I'm making a philosophical objection here; if we are going to write revised rules for manufacturing, then there are certain things about the rules as they currently stand which are inadequate & must be discarded -- so let us make the new stuff (as much as possible) make sense all the way from minimum TL to maximum TL so that they do not need to be discarded & rewritten later because of short-term design choices.

 

[Nelphine]

i wouldn't think that post scarcity is 'perfect'. Sure, it is from a manufacturing point of view, and that impacts a lot of other things. But, it's completely reasonable to have tech beyond 'we can make anything [we can imagine] in a manufacturing plant'. The tech beyond is just new imagination

 

[Sigtrygg]

If the Third Imperium wanted to enrich the lives of its citizens it could build a TL12+ paradise for everyone. The rulers - nobility and corporate - need to evolve beyond greed before that can happen.

 

[J. L. Brown]

But, it's completely reasonable to have tech beyond 'we can make anything [we can imagine] in a manufacturing plant'. The tech beyond is just new imagination

It seems an impossible task to model 'beyond imagination' in the rules for manufacturing; how would this work? And that just covers TL 20; are TL 21 and beyond just blank? If we know the minimum and maximum TLs from the start, why insert a bunch of unexciting blank space at the top end of the scale? I realize that at some point we are going to hit 'indistinguishable from magic', and that is fine (inevitable, even) -- I just think it ought to be at the very top of the scale.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Considering that there are published campaigns that feature TL 25 civilizations and TL 25++ Yaskoydray himself, what technologies do you reserve beyond the perfectly 100% efficient at TL 19? Once you hit 'perfect' at the end of the scale, how do you fill up the Tech-tree for the remaining 16 Technology Levels? It is sort of like an explorer having a ancient map of Terra with thousands of miles of empty ocean marked with 'here be dragons' and 'Terra incognito' -- and then on day two of the grand expedition discovering "Welp, this is the edge of the world, time to go home".

I'm making a philosophical objection here; if we are going to write revised rules for manufacturing, then there are certain things about the rules as they currently stand which are inadequate & must be discarded -- so let us make the new stuff (as much as possible) make sense all the way from minimum TL to maximum TL so that they do not need to be discarded & rewritten later because of short-term design choices.

I normally agree with your logic, but in this case I find your analogy flawed and narrow-minded. Just because there are no more oceans to explore doesn't mean that you have explored everything. There is an entire universe out there of technologies and sciences to explore and discover. Teleportation for one. Technological Psionics for another. H-Drives. S-Drives. etc... I am sure that there are millions more things that I am not thinking of.

You may have all of the technology to build an internal combustion engine, but if you don't know how internal combustion engines work, all of the post-scarcity in the universe won't help you build the thing.

 

[MasterGwydion]

i wouldn't think that post scarcity is 'perfect'. Sure, it is from a manufacturing point of view, and that impacts a lot of other things. But, it's completely reasonable to have tech beyond 'we can make anything [we can imagine] in a manufacturing plant'. The tech beyond is just new imagination

I agree. While manufacturing and power maybe post-scarcity, you still have to come up with new ideas for things to build, although robotic sophonts can do it for you if you really wish. Post-scarcity doesn't make you a God. It just means that you are never starving and never in need of material goods. It also means that capitalist societies will collapse into something else.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I normally agree with your logic, but in this case I find your analogy flawed and narrow-minded. Just because there are no more oceans to explore doesn't mean that you have explored everything. There is an entire universe out there of technologies and sciences to explore and discover. Teleportation for one. Technological Psionics for another. H-Drives. S-Drives. etc... I am sure that there are millions more things that I am not thinking of.

Teleportation, H-drives, and S-drives all all 'transportation' technologies, not 'manufacturing' technologies. What innovations and advancements in manufacturing are made after TL 19? The 'blank map' that disappears when the edge of the world is found does not indicate that all things have been explored; it indicates there is no more map to explore -- that particular type of exploration is closed off, finished. Once you declare that TL 19 manufacturing is 'indistinguishable from magic', then all the blank map above TL 19 manufacturing becomes meaningless. And if you are the one drawing the globe for the explorers to venture forth into, it is a little odd to choose to put the edge nearby where it invalidates everything else that might have gone in that space.

In Traveller, none of the major races are post-scarcity for power -- fusion requires fuel, and while it may be cheap it is not free. It takes time, effort, and money to make more fuel. There are at least two major breakthroughs in power-production that are known above TL 19 Fusion -- antimatter and 'Cosmic' power.

You may have all of the technology to build an internal combustion engine, but if you don't know how internal combustion engines work, all of the post-scarcity in the universe won't help you build the thing.

The ancient Egyptians could have built the space shuttle... if they had just known 'how'. The rules of reality have not changed between then and now; the only advantage we have over extinct Terran human civilizations from the dawn of history is knowledge and how we use that knowledge. The difference between TL-13 and TL-14 'Material' technology is not 'found a mine which produces Bonded Superdense'; it is 'discovered the knowledge to economically make practical amounts of Bonded Superdense'.

 

[Geir]

It also means that capitalist societies will collapse into something else.

Maybe, maybe not. I would have thought that in my materialist youth. But that's based on an industrial model that was more true 50-200 years ago. Most economic activity is now in services, which I suppose robots can do much of, but a 'human touch' (no, that's not what I meant, git your mind outta the gutter) will demand a premium. And as Mark Twain said back in that era: Land: they aren't making more of it (well, tell that to the Dutch, but never mind) - a parcel on Maui is always going to be more valuable than a parcel in Nebraska (if you live in Nebraska, my apologies and condolences).

 

[Condottiere]

Energy drives civilization.

And technology.

So, once you have fusion reactors, you're on the gravy train.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Maybe, maybe not. I would have thought that in my materialist youth. But that's based on an industrial model that was more true 50-200 years ago. Most economic activity is now in services, which I suppose robots can do much of, but a 'human touch' (no, that's not what I meant, git your mind outta the gutter) will demand a premium. And as Mark Twain said back in that era: Land: they aren't making more of it (well, tell that to the Dutch, but never mind) - a parcel on Maui is always going to be more valuable than a parcel in Nebraska (if you live in Nebraska, my apologies and condolences).

So how do people get food and material items that they need to survive if they do not need to work? 90% of jobs can be done by sufficiently advanced robots in the Traveller setting. TL-15 and below. Once they become sentient, they are no longer tools, they are people. How does a Capitalist society deal with 90% unemployment and no income to buy things? If everything is free, then it is not a Capitalist Society. The only services that will still be done by sophonts are the creative ones. Art and design as well as the sciences.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The ancient Egyptians could have built the space shuttle... if they had just known 'how'. The rules of reality have not changed between then and now; the only advantage we have over extinct Terran human civilizations from the dawn of history is knowledge and how we use that knowledge. The difference between TL-13 and TL-14 'Material' technology is not 'found a mine which produces Bonded Superdense'; it is 'discovered the knowledge to economically make practical amounts of Bonded Superdense'.

I am pretty sure that this is exactly what I said.

As far as manufacturing technologies post TL-17?

Robot Handbook, pg 104-105 Grey Goo and such things including morphic sophonts.