Traffic patterns for Space Travel

phavoc

Emperor Mongoose
This is something I was thinking about in the 1,000 ton trader thread, but it's complex enough to put in it's own thread.

Does anyone model the traffic patterns in their gaming universe. At it's most simple ships leave port A and arrive in port B. But in reality traffic and capacity planning are extremely complex and convoluted. And it's not just ships, it's all forms of transport where you are moving people and/or goods.

As I see it, there are two separate worlds - the one where ships travel between systems, and the one where ships remain within a system. For interstellar travel you'd probably see mostly point-to-point travel for ships. They arrive in system, drop off their cargo, refuel, pick up a new cargo and depart, either back to where they came from or the next part of their circuit. A lot would depend upon their circuit and just how much cargo and traffic was able to be generated to determine the optimum route. An alternative that seems to make sense on lesser routes would be to jump to a system, hit your first port, then travel in-system to one or two or however many were on your route, then jump out. That, too, really depends on the type of route and what places you are visiting. Jump ships are expensive, but if you can stay in a system making money it can be just as lucrative (and probably cheaper) to hit a new port or station every couple of days, and then jump out when you've made your rounds.

The other method is going to be in-system only. I would expect the bigger jump ships to drop off cargo, perhaps entire pods of cargo, and jump right back out. These ships would be higher jump, low-G maneuver because they don't visit main worlds, just cargo terminals on the 100D limit. They are expensive so there is a need to keep them going constantly. With a high-jump they can do the J-3/J-4 routes that some routes would require. But the insystem freighters are going to do all the local deliveries and collections of cargo to be transported elsewhere. A far-flung network of stations and colonies would require regular runs of mid-G ships to get to the destinations in a reasonable amount of time. Without the burden of jump fuel or jump drives you can make a high-G space ship much more economically than you can a star ship.

And that brings us back to route planning. Do you think there would be more point-to-point routes, more circular routes, or somehow a mix? Railroads use unit trains to quickly move cargo from point A to point Z, stopping only to refuel. But everything else gets put on a manifest freight and sorted every time it comes to a new railyard. UPS does much the same thing with it's package services. And aircraft use a mix of point-to-point and hub and spoke, depending upon traffic patterns as well as rivals.

So, does anyone else think about shit like this?
 
Route planning would be done by the ship line concerned (for large shipping companies of course) and would follow basic econ as dictated by the macro econ considerations. I VERY loosely consider this as PC's aren't really involved with it in my universe. Out on the low pop frontier it would be dominated by dedicated Free traders (not the ship class) who develop agents on various worlds.

I don't see jump ships having a real chance for intra-system trade, unless the trip between ports was otherwise over a week. If you had a Venus-Earth-Mars set up it would be taken care by M-drive only ships because of real time comm available, jump ships being not always available or not in communication and short travel times.
 
Sixty ton fast packet pinnaces.

Fresh frozen pineapples from Pluto.

If they're drone piloted, you could easily maintain over eight gees constant.

With humans, probably won't be permitted above seven gees constant.
 
At its most basic (in Traveller), trade is between resource worlds and consumer worlds. That can be raw resource and refiner, refiner and manufacturer, or manufacturer and "retail" consumer. Or all at once. All but the last relationship are likely to be as local as the trade partners can manage, because only at the end of the manufacturing chain is the margin of sale and the distinctiveness of product likely to be high enough to justify lengthy transshipment. There is no point in shipping ore two subsectors away when the world two parsecs away will do, but the distinctive jewelry made with that ore several steps later can be shipped far and wide and still make money.

The patterns are simple economics. What is a recurring discussion within Traveller is the depth of the ruts in those roads. Not where that ore goes, but how often the ore ship makes the trip, and how many other ore ships are on the same route.
 
A problem with the model is that in-system trade is left out of the model. And that presents a problem because it's far cheaper to produce something that's a weeks flight in N-space away than it is a jump away (with costs increasing as jump levels increase).
 
phavoc said:
A problem with the model is that in-system trade is left out of the model. And that presents a problem because it's far cheaper to produce something that's a weeks flight in N-space away than it is a jump away (with costs increasing as jump levels increase).

That omission is even more glaring when one considers the uninhabitable rock balls that are main worlds with large pop's. In that, one would fill up local, uninhabitable rock balls before using expensive jump to populate far away rock balls...
 
phavoc said:
So, does anyone else think about **** like this?

Yes, and having lived in a big port for 20 years (Oakland, CA), I use that example for lanes.

Someone over on the fb group posited the question of "what would Marc do?" and Don answered that Marc's answer would be: "Can't you come up with an answer in the context of the game?" Which shows his basic philosophy of the game being a loose framework, or as I've heard: "Rulings, not rules." Which isn't going to satisfy a lot of people, but that is where the game comes from, POV-wise.
 
dragoner said:
"Rulings, not rules." Which isn't going to satisfy a lot of people, but that is where the game comes from, POV-wise.

Which is VERY incorrect. The game IS about hidebound rules that are the opposite. Example, cargo & passenger rates being the same no matter the circumstances.
 
Remember when Marc sent Loren and John over to your house and they tore up all your Traveller stuff because you weren't playing the game right? That was hilarious.
 
You need Easyjump and RimTrail Spacelines to get competitive passenger rates.

As for cargo rates, that would depend on how much it takes to keep your freighter working plus a decent profit, fractured by competition and multiplied by demand.
 
IIRC, the actual rates were designed with the idea of keeping the ship on the edge of bankruptcy so that the players would have to go out and take other jobs to make ends meet.
 
In four hundred tonne rust buckets.

Remember the Onedin Line? All I recall is the time he had his brother seduce the secretary, he bought an ex-slaver to refurbish her as a fast freighter, and may have won the clipper race.

Anyway, once you get past the rust bucket stage, you could treat it like getting a leasehold in D&D, and building up your corporate principality, it's in another league of play.

As regards to immigration, I'd say that worlds with more or less standard gravity and non-polluted atmospheres would be more attractive, whether young pioneer families or retirees.
 
IMTU, shirt sleeve worlds are the high pops, but I've also done some other deals, like a small dyson around a dwarf star that has billions of Droyne on it, they didn't make it though; or a Zhodani colony that became the center of refugee influx, ad has a massive accreted habitation ring called "The Gyre":

file.php


http://dragonersdomain.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=205
 
dragoner said:
Remember when Marc sent Loren and John over to your house and they tore up all your Traveller stuff because you weren't playing the game right? That was hilarious.

No I don't. BUT, I DO remember watching on TV when you where carted off to the spin bin.
 
dragoner said:
IMTU, shirt sleeve worlds are the high pops, but I've also done some other deals, like a small dyson around a dwarf star that has billions of Droyne on it, they didn't make it though; or a Zhodani colony that became the center of refugee influx, ad has a massive accreted habitation ring called "The Gyre":

that's an interesting construct. And large enough to adventure on for quite sometime. Did you run your PC's through that in your game?

F33D said:
dragoner said:
Remember when Marc sent Loren and John over to your house and they tore up all your Traveller stuff because you weren't playing the game right? That was hilarious.

No I don't. BUT, I DO remember watching on TV when you where carted off to the spin bin.

Guys, knock it off, ok? Sarcasm and snarkyness is one thing, but there's no need to be jerks to each other just because you disagree. It doesn't do anyone any good to compare your Johnson's in public, yanno?
 
phavoc said:
Guys, knock it off, ok? Sarcasm and snarkyness is one thing, but there's no need to be jerks to each other just because you disagree. It doesn't do anyone any good to compare your Johnson's in public, yanno?

We're just joshing (can never remember the spelling of that colloquialism).
 
phavoc said:
Guys, knock it off, ok? Sarcasm and snarkyness is one thing, but there's no need to be jerks to each other just because you disagree. It doesn't do anyone any good to compare your Johnson's in public, yanno?

Yeah, sorry, he grates on my nerves.

that's an interesting construct. And large enough to adventure on for quite sometime. Did you run your PC's through that in your game?

Did you write this? I haven't run them through it yet, but they are on their way there. Interestingly enough, it came up in random gen and I had to figure out some way to explain all the population there. The refugee pop works too, so it might have been Zhodani to begin with, but now there is a huge mix of everybody, so I can use multiple aliens books.
 
phavoc said:
This is something I was thinking about in the 1,000 ton trader thread, but it's complex enough to put in it's own thread.

Does anyone model the traffic patterns in their gaming universe. At it's most simple ships leave port A and arrive in port B. But in reality traffic and capacity planning are extremely complex and convoluted. And it's not just ships, it's all forms of transport where you are moving people and/or goods.

As I see it, there are two separate worlds - the one where ships travel between systems, and the one where ships remain within a system. For interstellar travel you'd probably see mostly point-to-point travel for ships. They arrive in system, drop off their cargo, refuel, pick up a new cargo and depart, either back to where they came from or the next part of their circuit. A lot would depend upon their circuit and just how much cargo and traffic was able to be generated to determine the optimum route. An alternative that seems to make sense on lesser routes would be to jump to a system, hit your first port, then travel in-system to one or two or however many were on your route, then jump out. That, too, really depends on the type of route and what places you are visiting. Jump ships are expensive, but if you can stay in a system making money it can be just as lucrative (and probably cheaper) to hit a new port or station every couple of days, and then jump out when you've made your rounds.

The other method is going to be in-system only. I would expect the bigger jump ships to drop off cargo, perhaps entire pods of cargo, and jump right back out. These ships would be higher jump, low-G maneuver because they don't visit main worlds, just cargo terminals on the 100D limit. They are expensive so there is a need to keep them going constantly. With a high-jump they can do the J-3/J-4 routes that some routes would require. But the insystem freighters are going to do all the local deliveries and collections of cargo to be transported elsewhere. A far-flung network of stations and colonies would require regular runs of mid-G ships to get to the destinations in a reasonable amount of time. Without the burden of jump fuel or jump drives you can make a high-G space ship much more economically than you can a star ship.

And that brings us back to route planning. Do you think there would be more point-to-point routes, more circular routes, or somehow a mix? Railroads use unit trains to quickly move cargo from point A to point Z, stopping only to refuel. But everything else gets put on a manifest freight and sorted every time it comes to a new railyard. UPS does much the same thing with it's package services. And aircraft use a mix of point-to-point and hub and spoke, depending upon traffic patterns as well as rivals.

So, does anyone else think about **** like this?

For me, I think about the tech level of a port so I can describe the scene to the players. I try to get players to think in terms of tech level, if there is more than one available in plain sight. Players may be used to a tech level of 12 and now they find themselves at a tech level 14 port.
 
ShawnDriscoll said:
[For me, I think about the tech level of a port so I can describe the scene to the players. I try to get players to think in terms of tech level, if there is more than one available in plain sight. Players may be used to a tech level of 12 and now they find themselves at a tech level 14 port.

This brings up an interesting point. Generally speaking, in the Imperium the only difference the local TL makes is availability of parts. But the ports themselves are, at least in inference, all equivalent (i.e. a class A starport on a TL-12 world is the same as a class A starport on a TL-15 world). The book explanations are based upon local tech levels. The 'average' for the Imperium is TL-12/13. Since all the listed ports are Imperial one would assume that every local port is at least Imperial norm (TL-12/13). Higher I guess if the planet's overall TL is higher than that.
 
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