MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Maybe they simply just count the NPC as using a default roll of 7 and then add his bonus on top of it. Not sure.
Brokers
- Thread starter MasterGwydion
- Start date
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
If you count the INT DM. Which it doesn't say to do. And with an opposed check, it certainly would count, so the mechanics would need a bit of fine-tuning to avoid ridiculous results and a year-long path to billionaire status.
As for whether someone with an IQ 130 (which by definition is two standard deviations from the middle) is really INT 12, or whether that only counts for Travellers, it's hard to say. That logic, applied to the whole population and for SOC and 1:12 would be a Knight or more, which seems excessive. So while the dice might roll that way, a real population sample could be closer to (4D6)/2 which makes those 12s closer to (okay exactly equal to) 1: 1296, and even then, does a small city/town/suburb of 50,000 really have 38 1/2 Barons?
The whole trade dynamic probably needs a very careful look, but it's very easy to turn the Trade game into a money-making machine, if all you do is trade. But the game isn't called Trader. Other events intervene - and I'm not suggesting the Referee randomly cause havoc to balance the, um balance sheet, but adventures take place, bad things do happen, and markets will adapt to very unequal conditions.
<tangent>
The way the Trade system is set up is based on short distance trade, and applying it even to the trade routes in PoD is a bit problematic. The longer you keep cargo in your hold, the more opportunity cost for short-term gains you give up and the higher your expenses get. For a ten-jump trade route to be profitable, there had better be a lot more than a few percent gain. If you look at early trading trips by the Portuguese to India, for instance, the return on a single voyage was more than enough to pay for the ship and crew, and that was an era where you might loose half your ships and half of the crew on the surviving ships in just one round trip.
I suspect if you built and ran a computerized trade module based on the current Trade system what you would would see as profitable would be local routes within a subsector-wide region. Goods would stop moving after a couple of jumps because if you're making money on trade, by the time you get to the second port, the amount the broker paid for your goods would mean that he couldn't sell it to the next guy. But that's just a thought experiment with no math, so I could be wrong.
But that also means that the Aslan at Tlaiowaha would pay a really lot for dust spice from Romar, 12 jumps at jump-3 away.
</tangent>
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I thought the rules for Traveller skill checks were always Skill + Stat. Am I wrong? You can have ability checks with no Skill, but I did not know that you could have Skill Checks with no ability. That seems extremely counter-intuitive.
Remember. High SOC is not just nobility. Check out the Dilettante Book. MGP3834. It has the rules for what a high SOC could mean, other than nobility. Like the Kardashians or Elon Musk or Steven Tyler, Elvis, The Beatles, Tom Brady, Messi, Michael Jordan, etc.
We tend to have Our adventures in the week spent in port. Sometimes they run over, but no big deal. Broker handles the trades of what the PCs brought with them and handles the trades to buy what they want before they leave.
Yeah. None of the rules currently in Traveller explain how long-distance trade can even exist, but by the setting, it does. So, some rules simple, easy to understand rules for that would be handy.
I agree with this. The math seems to work.
Silly Aslan and their drug habits! (spice habits) lol
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
But it's not a skill check, it's a roll. Yes, pedantic, but it's not even a 2D roll, but a 3D roll and there is no 'success' number or Effect so it's not
38 1/2 big shots still seems like too many at 50,000. At 100,000 you might have a half dozen or so 'families' with really high status, but you would have to apply the SOC to the whole multi-generational family. And of the examples you give (even if they're not all Americans so the pool is more like half a billion) that's not a lot of celebrities among 300+ million people (and not sure Steven Tyler qualifies at the same level as the rest - unless they're Dukes and he's just a Marquis, but I don't want to wander off on a tangent of a tangent - as in what does that make Liv?). Maybe that wasn't the best example, but my point was that the distribution for Travellers may be a wider bell curve than that of the population as a whole. Yes, I know it goes against the 'average smuck' paradigm, but anyway.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Well that's just dumb. Wouldn't a higher INT be a benefit to setting the price of an item? Or SOC depending on how you do it? Just make it a skill check that happens to be 3D6+ instead of 2D6+.
Yeah, but if Travellers are not average schmucks then why are they not built different than NPCs in D&D? PCs do not get different skills or stats than NPCs. Even the local shopkeeper has a "PC Class", Citizen. In Traveller their class or their stats are not what makes them exceptional. There actions make them exceptional. That and an under-developed sense of self-preservation. lol That is one of the things I love about Traveller. We are just a bunch of regular people. The skills vary. The money and equipment vary. (including cybernetics and genetic mods). They are all still people and just as fragile.
"This is My FAVORITE character, EVER!"
*Splat* Dead PC
"What happened?"
"So you know how in Olympic Diving they do all sorts of acrobatics before they hit the water?"
"Yeah. Why?"
Imagine that, but trying it during a boarding action between two open airlocks!"
"Oh cool! What happened?"
"Missed the ship. Floated off into space. Damn crewmates were so focused nobody even noticed until they went to distribute the loot! lol"
-The Story of The Amazing Diving Debbie
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
And one last thing before I go off and do what I'm supposed to be doing tonight:
The way it is now has a couple of advantages over an opposed check scenario:
1. It's a single roll on a chart that has a lot of rows, whereas an opposed skill check only deals with brokers, and then the net Effect would be applied to the 3D table with the DMs for the trade codes. That's three rolls.
2. It prevents very wide swings from things like a Smart Broker 4 with a computer rolling a 12 + 4 +2 +1 = 19, while the average smuck rolls a 2 + 2 +0 = 4 and pushes a net DM +15 onto the 3D table.
Not saying it's prefect as is, but messing with the system too much might not produce useful results.
The way it is now has a couple of advantages over an opposed check scenario:
1. It's a single roll on a chart that has a lot of rows, whereas an opposed skill check only deals with brokers, and then the net Effect would be applied to the 3D table with the DMs for the trade codes. That's three rolls.
2. It prevents very wide swings from things like a Smart Broker 4 with a computer rolling a 12 + 4 +2 +1 = 19, while the average smuck rolls a 2 + 2 +0 = 4 and pushes a net DM +15 onto the 3D table.
Not saying it's prefect as is, but messing with the system too much might not produce useful results.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I figure 8 is the average number of a no-name Broker/0 with no skill and no stat. I say 8, because average on a 3D is 10.5. I round down to 10, then minus the skill of the opposing broker, which the book says is 2 (usually) So average score of 8. That is 100% on the Purchase Price column. Personally, I think an 8 should be closer to 110 or 115% on the Purchase Price and an 85 or 90% on the Sale Price side. (I moved to 100% Sale Price to 8, so the percentage is always the same for the number rolled. If you roll a total 8, buying or selling, it is 100%
Not an opposed check, just minus the broker's skill + stat + 1 for being local + anything miscellaneous he may have. This makes it much harder to just make bank and call it done. In Starports you are dealing with brokers, not schmucks. They are skilled. Give them at least Broker/2 + stat + 1 for being local. That will usually come out to a -4 modifier for the PCs Broker roll. This means that if Travellers with no Broker skill try and go and sell things or buy things, they are going to be robbed blind at every deal, unless they get very lucky. This is how Spec Trade should work, while still being simple enough to use without having to think about it first.
Needs play-tested for balance, but it seems to work.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
This can become rapidly complex, depending on any number of dynamics, social or market.
Or financial.
Or financial.
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Where is that in MgT2?
Note that "even if the seller decides not to sell his goods" section. If the +4 from the Broker still only gets you to say 70% because of a bad roll (and you roll after hiring the Broker) you either sell at 70% and make a 50% loss (30% loss + the Brokers 20%) or just pay the 20% and keep the goods.
Personally, I'd like to see a skill chain so your effect in finding the market adjusted the price finally negotiated. Under earlier iterations of the rules you could also use the taking your time rule to improve your chances. Spend a couple of days wearing down your trade partner and you might get a better price.
I am also slighty concerned that the trade opportunities on a hell world might be no worse than on any other world. Judice in District 268 has a canon population in the single digits, a corrosive atmosphere and a rudimentary landing facility. Yet according to the rules has the full suite of common goods and all the Ni goods available. As a Pop 3- world it takes a -3 to the quantity roll, but for a 2d6 roll this often still means 40+ tons of goods for each supplier found (and the Class E port provides no negative modifier vs. a Class D for finding suppliers so there are often several). Where are all these exports coming from? It is not like the port has extensive warehousing where a local broker has stockpiled goods from passing vessels (and with the gas giant so far out and no refuelling there are not many passing vessels).
I am handwaving a lot of it away as automated facilities and robot extraction to help fund the facility and ensure there is a reason for ships to come to the starport thus permitting the cost effective rotation of staff at the facility (plus occasional conferences etc.).
This is not a crit of MGT2 since it has been baked in from LBBs but it is an indicator that trade will always need a lot of referee input for any of it to make any sort of sense.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Every other CT edition.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I am confused. I thought we were discussing Mongoose Traveller.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
You were, but it is often useful to see how it was meant to be applied.
Broker was never intended to be a PC skill. Too have indepth knowledge of the trade requirements of a world means you spend all your time on that world.
If a PC is to have it then it should be tied to a world:
Broker 1 (Regina)
The nature of intersteller communication is such that any market knowledg you have about an adjcaent world is a week out of date, any goos you ship outbound are a forntight out of date.
When I wrote up my Factor career (a factor being a trade agent for a megacorpration, world government, or noble house) I granted access to the Broker skill, but with the limitation that it was reduced by 1 for each jump away from world of origin. Brokers know local trade.
Broker was never intended to be a PC skill. Too have indepth knowledge of the trade requirements of a world means you spend all your time on that world.
If a PC is to have it then it should be tied to a world:
Broker 1 (Regina)
The nature of intersteller communication is such that any market knowledg you have about an adjcaent world is a week out of date, any goos you ship outbound are a forntight out of date.
When I wrote up my Factor career (a factor being a trade agent for a megacorpration, world government, or noble house) I granted access to the Broker skill, but with the limitation that it was reduced by 1 for each jump away from world of origin. Brokers know local trade.
Anstett
Emperor Mongoose
I like this idea in concept.
When you say reduced by 1 for each jump. The added variable of J1 or J6 information flow seems to make it too complicated to 'balance' the skill levels of a +2 on X local system with a +2 on Y system that has a Scout base to bring in the firehose of information.
I have always thought about Broker being knowing how to navigate the myriad different trading structures across Known Space. Not in knowing the actual purchaser or seller at the location but knowing how to find them and interact with them.
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
The big issue with the Trade system is that it is actually functioning a expected: as a adjunct to a campaign or a footnote in a planet's overall economy. It doesn't even model the Imperium well, because if you look at your returns and costs, I'm not sure there is very much on the list worth transporting more than a subsector, let alone further, like a route to Florian Space.
If you look at historical trade empires: A Portuguese Armada fleet, on its 2-3 round trip would make enough money to toss away the ships. A single treasure galleon lost at sea would screw up the Spanish economy for a year. That's the sort of trade that builds long routes, and there isn't a mechanism for it.
As for whether its an 'infinite money machine' - that's what compound interest is in theory. Not always real life, but you can become a millionaire by patiently running a 7-11 for a few decades - unless you get shot in a robbery, but that's... hey, we need a Trade Events table.
The 'expert' that made Far Trader had some good concepts, but the worst in there was an... income tax. Now how the heck go you game that without a Profession (accountant) roll? What's deductible? Whose 4000+ page tax code are you using? That's why all I threw into WBH was a tariff rate, because we know how to model those in game terms.*
I guess my point is: don't overthink it. It's a tool in the sandbox (Wait, is that where I put my tools? And what is that cat doing in there?). A little harder in a solo campaign without it being more rigorous, but that's actually a place where random events like the punks robbing the store make sense to add. And the Corrupt Trade Officials table, the OMG The Warehouse Flooded! table. And the Hey, I Just Cornered the Market on Beanbag Chairs table.
*Not to be considered an endorsement or commentary on any present political-economic controversy, just pointing out that it's easy to take a percentage off the gross selling price and call it good from a game perspective.
If you look at historical trade empires: A Portuguese Armada fleet, on its 2-3 round trip would make enough money to toss away the ships. A single treasure galleon lost at sea would screw up the Spanish economy for a year. That's the sort of trade that builds long routes, and there isn't a mechanism for it.
As for whether its an 'infinite money machine' - that's what compound interest is in theory. Not always real life, but you can become a millionaire by patiently running a 7-11 for a few decades - unless you get shot in a robbery, but that's... hey, we need a Trade Events table.
The 'expert' that made Far Trader had some good concepts, but the worst in there was an... income tax. Now how the heck go you game that without a Profession (accountant) roll? What's deductible? Whose 4000+ page tax code are you using? That's why all I threw into WBH was a tariff rate, because we know how to model those in game terms.*
I guess my point is: don't overthink it. It's a tool in the sandbox (Wait, is that where I put my tools? And what is that cat doing in there?). A little harder in a solo campaign without it being more rigorous, but that's actually a place where random events like the punks robbing the store make sense to add. And the Corrupt Trade Officials table, the OMG The Warehouse Flooded! table. And the Hey, I Just Cornered the Market on Beanbag Chairs table.
*Not to be considered an endorsement or commentary on any present political-economic controversy, just pointing out that it's easy to take a percentage off the gross selling price and call it good from a game perspective.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
When they do the bigger merchants supplement that has to be somewhere in the future, they need to cover Imperial trade at the megacorp level as well, even if only giving some information that we can use for high level games. Cover all this and more.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Apparently, recreational drugs, pornography, and weapons, will always have a market.
Unfortunately if economics was an exact science the world would be a better place. Someone once said that if all the economists in the world were laid end to end, they wouldn't reach a conclusion.
I don't think I have ever played a game that had a functional economic system. I thought Far Trader was close (and it certainly packed with useful information) but the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.
I found it much easier to take the flawed economic model and try to make up reasons why it wasn't flawed at all. That is after all what politicians do
Broker skill might simply be the ability to convince people that your deal is the best one. That may have nothing to do with the sepcific goods in question and have nothing to do with the specific planet you are on. I am pretty sure speculation is just gambling with a system. Broker says how good that system is.
I don't think I have ever played a game that had a functional economic system. I thought Far Trader was close (and it certainly packed with useful information) but the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.
I found it much easier to take the flawed economic model and try to make up reasons why it wasn't flawed at all. That is after all what politicians do
Broker skill might simply be the ability to convince people that your deal is the best one. That may have nothing to do with the sepcific goods in question and have nothing to do with the specific planet you are on. I am pretty sure speculation is just gambling with a system. Broker says how good that system is.
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Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Psychohistory tries to remove the irrational elements out of the algorithm.
And those, tend to be us.
And black swans.
And those, tend to be us.
And black swans.
