Trade Goods - Common Consumables

[Sigtrygg]

I would have looked forward to the merchant rules, but given your views below, I am not sure that is still the case.

Then perhaps I need to find a new game. The appeal of Traveller has always been that Travellers are mechanically the same as everyone else.

They are, and always have been. I ignore mook rules whenever they are introduced for just that reason.

It is a game of skills, not powers. (Even Psionics are just treated as normal skills.) They are not gods with thousands of hit points and using completely different classes for PC and NPCs.

No argument from me, I agree.

If you, as a representative of Mongoose, are going to say that is not the case, then, I need to stop buying Mongoose products immediately as it is not the game I thought it was and will not be supported in a way that I can enjoy.

That's not what he is saying.
He is saying that the existing trade rules apply to characters, and that the rules for trading between worlds for the megacorporations and big players have never been written - despite GT attempt. Put another way don't try to apply the travellers trading minigame to anything other than traveller player characters.

I hate the hypocrisy in RPGs that PC and NPCs use different rules, like D&D. In Traveller you write up NPCs the same way you write up PCs. There is no mechanical difference. What makes Travellers different from other people are their actions.

Correct, and the actions of the travellers are governed by the unavoidable fact that they are make believe extensions of the players. The NPCs are not real either and are governed by dice rolls.

There should be no mechanical difference between a Drifter and a mustered-out Drifter.

There is a big difference. A mustered out drifter is being played by a real person and is now on a life of adventure, they are a traveller. A non-mustered out drifter is still an NPC. Unless you want to run an active duty drifter campaign in which case you will have to write the hierarchies and protocols of drifters.

Although, you seem to be saying that as soon as you muster out of a career, you magically can no longer buy things at the regular people price, you get the Traveller price which is economically non-viable.

No, that is all on your interpretation. PCs and NPCs buy things for the same prices, its just there is no player making the choices for the NPC.

Game rules should be like physics and apply the same to everyone. It is how I run My games, but if this will not be supported by Mongoose products then, I will have to find a game that does or just go back to not gaming, again.

They do up to a point. The point of divergence is that we need rules for what PCs do. If you want to role play an active duty merchant campaign then you will need to use different rules.

Every RPG is a simulator in varying levels of detail and accuracy. It simulates a person assuming the role of a person in another universe. It is by definition a universe simulator. I think what you mean to say is that it is not a "detailed universe simulator".

Its a quation of how much detail you can put in to a game. First you write the stuff that player characters interact with.

Worldbuilding is called worldbuilding for a reason. You are literally building the world. So, of course, it is a simulation, it is just not a simulation of Our universe with Our universe's rules.

We don't know our universes rules, so the Traveller rules approximate a reasonable attempt at describing the worlds that player character visit.

Every computer RPG you play also simulates the world you are adventuring in. All RPGs are in one form or another a "universe simulator". The Referee's entire job description is literally to simulate the universe for the players by using the rules of the system and setting.

The referee's job is to run a fun game, not simulate the universe. A lot of that will be in the imagination of the players as much as the referee.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That's not what he is saying.
He is saying that the existing trade rules apply to characters, and that the rules for trading between worlds for the megacorporations and big players have never been written - despite GT attempt. Put another way don't try to apply the travellers trading minigame to anything other than traveller player characters.

Being a sole proprietor of a small (one ship) merchant line is way different than being a megacorp. A one ship merchant line is very much a thing for Traveller PCs to do. Exploring new markets. Discovering new products. etc... If the rules ignore that the scale is the same between one person with a ship as for one person without a ship or at least much closer of a relationship than between a lone Traveller and a multi-billion employee megacorp, then the rules are the problem. Creating an artificial divide is counter productive.

Correct, and the actions of the travellers are governed by the unavoidable fact that they are make believe extensions of the players. The NPCs are not real either and are governed by dice rolls.

No. Both PCs and NPCs are make believe extension of the people involved in the game. NPCs are just extensions of the Referee and PCs are extensions of the players. Both are governed by dice rolling as well as human interaction.

There is a big difference. A mustered out drifter is being played by a real person and is now on a life of adventure, they are a traveller. A non-mustered out drifter is still an NPC. Unless you want to run an active duty drifter campaign in which case you will have to write the hierarchies and protocols of drifters.

Is the Referee not a "real person"? A hobo travelling the rails is on a life of adventure regardless of if he is played by a player or by a Referee. What hierarchies and protocols are you talking about? If you quit being a hobo to be a hobo, then what is the difference?

No, that is all on your interpretation. PCs and NPCs buy things for the same prices, its just there is no player making the choices for the NPC.

That is not what Matt actually said. He said that the two groups do not buy things at the same price. Basically, if you are a Traveller, you use these rules. If you are not a Traveller, you use rules that haven't been written yet in almost 50 years, instead of just making one set of rules that cover everyone.

They do up to a point. The point of divergence is that we need rules for what PCs do. If you want to role play an active duty merchant campaign then you will need to use different rules.

The rules for PCs and NPCs should be the same.

Its a quation of how much detail you can put in to a game. First you write the stuff that player characters interact with.

PCs aren't buying goods? Selling goods? Running a merchant game along side of their (likely less than legal) activities or as a cover for some other activity? I have never played in a Traveller game that didn't have some aspect of Trade in it. Hell, the whole 3I exists to primarily increase Trade, from the Domain-level down to the Intersystem-level. Kinds seems like those are rules that would be important.

We don't know our universes rules, so the Traveller rules approximate a reasonable attempt at describing the worlds that player character visit.

We don't need to know Our universes rule to make rules that work in an RPG. I have no idea how jump drives work in Our world, but the game world has rules to cover them anyhow and they work, more or less, just fine.

The referee's job is to run a fun game, not simulate the universe. A lot of that will be in the imagination of the players as much as the referee.

Run a fun game by simulating a universe. Page 3 of the CRB, "One of the participants is the referee, who describes the world around the Travellers, presents them with challenges and dangers, and takes on the role of the supporting cast and antagonists. The referee creates the basic outline of the adventures that the Travellers encounter and resolves the results of their actions using the rules in this book as a guideline."

It literally says the Referee's job is to describe the universe to the players and use the rules in the book as a guideline to determine the results of the PC's actions. That is the very definition of simulating a universe with varying degrees of detail. Maybe your universe is just a bar and everything that happens in the adventure happens inside that bar. Maybe your universe is Charted Space which is vastly more complex and requires more rules than just having an adventure that never leaves the bar or deals much with the rest of the universe.

It is like the difference between spending a weekend taking a road trip in a car (drive car there, drive car back, enjoy the sights) versus spending a weekend rebuilding the engine of your car. Both can be fun, but rebuilding an engine requires a much higher level of "rules" and skills to do. Both are individual level actions, but one would require more rules support than doing the other. Being the Chief Engineer on a Free Trader requires way more game rules than being a taxi driver in a one horse town. (Although the ttaxi driver will need rules to say what happens if he accidentally runs over the one horse in town. Then you might need all kinds of legal rules...lol...

 

[Sigtrygg]

Being a sole proprietor of a small (one ship) merchant line is way different than being a megacorp. A one ship merchant line is very much a thing for Traveller PCs to do.

Yes it is. As PCs. Using the rules for PCs.

Exploring new markets. Discovering new products. etc... If the rules ignore that the scale is the same between one person with a ship as for one person without a ship or at least much closer of a relationship than between a lone Traveller and a multi-billion employee megacorp, then the rules are the problem. Creating an artificial divide is counter productive.

There is no artificial divide. A sole trader NPC faces the same issues that player characters using the trade mini game do.

No. Both PCs and NPCs are make believe extension of the people involved in the game. NPCs are just extensions of the Referee and PCs are extensions of the players. Both are governed by dice rolling as well as human interaction.

There are no people, they don't exist. The PCs need detailed rules for what they get up to, pity the referee that has to run the NPC crew of every trader that could by calling at a port.

Is the Referee not a "real person"? A hobo travelling the rails is on a life of adventure regardless of if he is played by a player or by a Referee. What hierarchies and protocols are you talking about? If you quit being a hobo to be a hobo, then what is the difference?

The referee is not a real person in the game. In point of fact you can play Traveller with no referee, CT mentions it.
Where is the referee in game? This isn't the D&D cartoon with the DM popping in. A hobo doesn't go travelling.
Your disconnect appears to be you don't appreciate what mustering out is (not a personal attack I just don't know how else to say it) - it is moving from NPC to PC. An active duty campaign doesn't involve mustering out but you are still bound to the career you are in.

That is not what Matt actually said. He said that the two groups do not buy things at the same price. Basically, if you are a Traveller, you use these rules. If you are not a Traveller, you use rules that haven't been written yet in almost 50 years, instead of just making one set of rules that cover everyone.

I'm not reading it like that.

The rules for PCs and NPCs should be the same.

They are.

PCs aren't buying goods? Selling goods? Running a merchant game along side of their (likely less than legal) activities or as a cover for some other activity? I have never played in a Traveller game that didn't have some aspect of Trade in it. Hell, the whole 3I exists to primarily increase Trade, from the Domain-level down to the Intersystem-level. Kinds seems like those are rules that would be important.

I have, many many times. Trading is very boring to some. The key thing is as you say their trading is in addition to the adventures they get up to.
How many PCs are the CEOs of megacorporations or subsector dukes actually administering their subsector?
The Third Imperium, the megacorporations are background to what the players get up to.

We don't need to know Our universes rule to make rules that work in an RPG. I have no idea how jump drives work in Our world, but the game world has rules to cover them anyhow and they work, more or less, just fine.

Except when someone comes along and says that you need a living being on board...

Run a fun game by simulating a universe. Page 3 of the CRB, "One of the participants is the referee, who describes the world around the Travellers, presents them with challenges and dangers, and takes on the role of the supporting cast and antagonists. The referee creates the basic outline of the adventures that the Travellers encounter and resolves the results of their actions using the rules in this book as a guideline."

"describes the world around the Travellers", almost as if only they matter.

It literally says the Referee's job is to describe the universe to the players and use the rules in the book as a guideline to determine the results of the PC's actions. That is the very definition of simulating a universe with varying degrees of detail. Maybe your universe is just a bar and everything that happens in the adventure happens inside that bar. Maybe your universe is Charted Space which is vastly more complex and requires more rules than just having an adventure that never leaves the bar or deals much with the rest of the universe.

The fact remains that the rules are PC centric.

It is like the difference between spending a weekend taking a road trip in a car (drive car there, drive car back, enjoy the sights) versus spending a weekend rebuilding the engine of your car. Both can be fun, but rebuilding an engine requires a much higher level of "rules" and skills to do. Both are individual level actions, but one would require more rules support than doing the other. Being the Chief Engineer on a Free Trader requires way more game rules than being a taxi driver in a one horse town. (Although the ttaxi driver will need rules to say what happens if he accidentally runs over the one horse in town. Then you might need all kinds of legal rules...lol...

Engineer - 2, Taxi driver - 2. There, covered it

More seriously back in the day I allowed people who chose the Other career path to use the NPC table for inspiration as to what they did pre-rebirth as a traveller.

 

[Arkathan]

Travellers engage in small scale speculative trade in whatever commodities are left over after the main corporate traders have bought what they want and the remote orders of other planets have been turned into packets of freight.
There are economies of scale/infrastructure and long term contracts involved that do not apply to (in comparison) unreliable free traders.

Our sheriff can run the police agencies of smaller towns in a more cost effective manner, while giving the town/village the same or better coverage with at least the same number of police - only better equipped and better trained due to economies of scale. The Sheriff can buy equipment more cheaply and has a deeper pool of talent for use in training each officer (deputy). (It doesn't hurt that the US Army came to our sheriff for training in police style operations for Iraq.)
While not trade it illustrates the same thing. Smaller towns could not afford to field poorly trained and poorly paid officers on their own, but by contracting with the sheriff for equivalent services, they get better equipped and better paid officers with better access to information for LESS than they paid on their own. Note that whenever possible, the existing officers were hired on and trained up as deputies, and continued to serve in their old neighborhoods. So it was not a situation of people being displaced by a bigger fish.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I guess to Me, Travellers aren't different than "normal" people. That safari guide leading expeditions into the unknown, trying to keep the scientists alive? That guy is a Traveller. He might be an Ex-Scout, but he is a current Expedition Guide out adventuring in the unknown. He has already mustered out but he is still working. Other people pay him and he collects a pension (whenever he gets near civilized space), but he works for himself. All "mustering out" is, is cashing in your chips that the character has earned during those years. If you are part of a uniformed service, then you either leave the service or change careers within the service. If you are a doctor, you don't stop being a doctor just because you quit your job at the hospital and signed on to a Free Trader as their medic looking for adventure.

Yes it is. As PCs. Using the rules for PCs.

There is no artificial divide. A sole trader NPC faces the same issues that player characters using the trade mini game do.

They are not mustered out. They are still active in the Merchant Career.

There are no people, they don't exist. The PCs need detailed rules for what they get up to, pity the referee that has to run the NPC crew of every trader that could by calling at a port.

A Referee does need to run the NPC crew of every trader that comes into the port if the PCs decide to interact with them. NPCs need detailed rules for everything that they can do to, otherwise NPCs are superpowered people who can do things that a PC can never hope to do. To avoid that, we use the same rules for PCs and for NPCs. Thankfully for Referees everywhere, you only actually need to describe things that occur in view of the PCs or that they learn of in some manner. Things I don't have to describe, I don't roll for, but if the PCs can perceive it or hear about it, then it has to follow the same rules that PCs use. I also do not roll for NPCs or PCs unless there is a dramatic reason to do so or if it is opposed/required for something, like determining price of goods.

The referee is not a real person in the game.

Sure he is. He is the highest god in the in game universe. His decisions affect it's very existence. Will the PCs ever be aware of this? Doubtful for the same reason that I doubt a single protein is aware of the entire human being. The Referee is the one who controls the entirety of existence outside of the actions of the PCs. They have "Divine Free Will". lolz

In point of fact you can play Traveller with no referee, CT mentions it.
Where is the referee in game?

It is a solo game. The Player is the Referee.

A hobo doesn't go travelling.

Hobos and Tramps are commonly lumped together. Where to you think the phrase "Tramp Trader" came from?

Your disconnect appears to be you don't appreciate what mustering out is (not a personal attack I just don't know how else to say it) - it is moving from NPC to PC. An active duty campaign doesn't involve mustering out but you are still bound to the career you are in.

You muster out of every career before you enter a new one. Page 20 of the CRB. You get your benefit rolls before you join a new career. This does not support your theory that mustering out is changing from NPC to PC. That is not what the rules say. The rules say that it is merely the leaving of a career for a new one or to retire, doesn't matter. The rules work the same and do not support your interpretation.

I have, many many times. Trading is very boring to some. The key thing is as you say their trading is in addition to the adventures they get up to.
How many PCs are the CEOs of megacorporations or subsector dukes actually administering their subsector?
The Third Imperium, the megacorporations are background to what the players get up to.

Why are all of your Travellers CEOs of Megacorps or ruling Dukes? I almost never see players with their character's SOC stat that high. Heck, most of those that I play are middle-upper class nobodies.

"describes the world around the Travellers", almost as if only they matter.

Do you spend a lot of time describing what the PCs don't see? Those things still occur, they just do not get described to the players.

The fact remains that the rules are PC centric.

That was the mistake that Traveller has made since the beginning. If you only write rules for one group of people, PCs in this case, then you exclude all of those that do not fit into that category, worldbuilding Referees in this case.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I can see the rules being different for the fabulously wealthy and powerful megacorporations. They get the prime rib at lower cost than the players get the scraps. And if the rabble start getting close to edging into the business area of a smaller corp, then something happens. Shame about that new freight company. Lost too many ships and now they're bankrupt.

Even so, I'd like to see the rules the big guys play by codified. I like playing games on a wider scale and could use them.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I can see the rules being different for the fabulously wealthy and powerful megacorporations. They get the prime rib at lower cost than the players get the scraps. And if the rabble start getting close to edging into the business area of a smaller corp, then something happens. Shame about that new freight company. Lost too many ships and now they're bankrupt.

Even so, I'd like to see the rules the big guys play by codified. I like playing games on a wider scale and could use them.

I just want a simple set of rules I can play with, a simple set of rules I can world-build with, and to have them both work together.

 

[Condottiere]

Player characters tend to be the same for most role playing games, all things being equal.

Except in Traveller, they tend to be more experienced.

And slower.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I guess to Me, Travellers aren't different than "normal" people. That safari guide leading expeditions into the unknown, trying to keep the scientists alive? That guy is a Traveller.

To me he isn't for the simple reason he is an NPC, travellers are PCs. He is still in his career, he has not mustered out.
But then a PC dies, so the ref says to the player which NPC do you want to play until we can introduce your new character?
The player picks the guide. At the end of the adventure the player has two choices, keep the guide but muster out because he is now joining the party of travellers for their further adventures, or generate a new character and the guide is a footnote in an adventure journal.

He might be an Ex-Scout, but he is a current Expedition Guide out adventuring in the unknown. He has already mustered out but he is still working. Other people pay him and he collects a pension (whenever he gets near civilized space), but he works for himself. All "mustering out" is, is cashing in your chips that the character has earned during those years. If you are part of a uniformed service, then you either leave the service or change careers within the service. If you are a doctor, you don't stop being a doctor just because you quit your job at the hospital and signed on to a Free Trader as their medic looking for adventure.

They are not mustered out. They are still active in the Merchant Career.

And they are not player characters until they muster out. Unless you run an active duty campaign, with the limitations I have previously mentioned/

A Referee does need to run the NPC crew of every trader that comes into the port if the PCs decide to interact with them. NPCs need detailed rules for everything that they can do to, otherwise NPCs are superpowered people who can do things that a PC can never hope to do. To avoid that, we use the same rules for PCs and for NPCs. Thankfully for Referees everywhere, you only actually need to describe things that occur in view of the PCs or that they learn of in some manner. Things I don't have to describe, I don't roll for, but if the PCs can perceive it or hear about it, then it has to follow the same rules that PCs use. I also do not roll for NPCs or PCs unless there is a dramatic reason to do so or if it is opposed/required for something, like determining price of goods.

I don't see how NPCs are different? In one argument you claim the PCs are being made super powered now you are arguing the NPCs have super powers.
In CT only NPCs had the broker skill. To understand the trade makets of your world and surrounding worlds you needed to be full time studying the market forces of those worlds. Stick that broker on a ship and move him a sector and his skills are useless until he can learn the market forces of the new world.

Sure he is. He is the highest god in the in game universe. His decisions affect it's very existence. Will the PCs ever be aware of this? Doubtful for the same reason that I doubt a single protein is aware of the entire human being. The Referee is the one who controls the entirety of existence outside of the actions of the PCs. They have "Divine Free Will". lolz

I don't play in games where the referee/DM has this attitude. The referee describes the situation and adjudicates rulings, they do not intervene divinely for or against the PCs or NPCs.

It is a solo game. The Player is the Referee.

Hobos and Tramps are commonly lumped together. Where to you think the phrase "Tramp Trader" came from?

You muster out of every career before you enter a new one. Page 20 of the CRB. You get your benefit rolls before you join a new career. This does not support your theory that mustering out is changing from NPC to PC. That is not what the rules say. The rules say that it is merely the leaving of a career for a new one or to retire, doesn't matter. The rules work the same and do not support your interpretation.

That is a Mongoosism. There are previous rule sets that allow multiple careers. The fact remains that to join the game as a PC the character has undergone their final mustering out, unless you are running an active duty campaign. Or do PCs in your games continiue to earn mustering out rolls for their time in game?

Why are all of your Travellers CEOs of Megacorps or ruling Dukes? I almost never see players with their character's SOC stat that high. Heck, most of those that I play are middle-upper class nobodies.

I never claimed they are, I said those types of characters are the ones who would need the metagame rules laid out for their use.

Do you spend a lot of time describing what the PCs don't see? Those things still occur, they just do not get described to the players.

And therefore don't need rules, trees falling in woods...

That was the mistake that Traveller has made since the beginning. If you only write rules for one group of people, PCs in this case, then you exclude all of those that do not fit into that category, worldbuilding Referees in this case.

Are you seriously saying there were no world building rules in CT?
System generation, starship construction, ecosystem derived animal encounters, then there were the guidelines on the inspiration for describing your sci fi universe.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Even so, I'd like to see the rules the big guys play by codified. I like playing games on a wider scale and could use them.

Me too, but I am happy to just make that stuff up or find a boardgame or wargame that already does it.

Question, when you say "I like playing games on a wider scale and could use them" are you talking solo, or do you have players contributing?

 

[Sigtrygg]

I just want a simple set of rules I can play with, a simple set of rules I can world-build with, and to have them both work together.

In CT LBB1-3 they did. As they introduced more rule books they introduced inconsistencies and variations. The more you build the setting the harder it becomes to make the pieces work together, especially when you have different authors introducing their own rules and systems that ignore the rules as written.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Player characters tend to be the same for most role playing games, all things being equal.

Except in Traveller, they tend to be more experienced.

And slower.

Who would you rather go into combat with? A one term infantry NCO or a twenty year veteran infantry NCO?

 

[Condottiere]

That tends to be situational.

In that, am I behind him, or in front of him?

 

[Terry Mixon]

Me too, but I am happy to just make that stuff up or find a boardgame or wargame that already does it.

Question, when you say "I like playing games on a wider scale and could use them" are you talking solo, or do you have players contributing?

Right now, I have players in my Ancients campaign that have more money and influence than they know what to do with and are trying to adjust to psionic powers, too. They are running a business that is about to go up against a megacorp and the rules would help me and them.

 

[ColinD]

Right now, I have players in my Ancients campaign that have more money and influence than they know what to do with and are trying to adjust to psionic powers, too. They are running a business that is about to go up against a megacorp and the rules would help me and them.

Have you looked at GURPS Far Trader or the Stars without Number "Suns of Gold"?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Right now, I have players in my Ancients campaign that have more money and influence than they know what to do with and are trying to adjust to psionic powers, too. They are running a business that is about to go up against a megacorp and the rules would help me and them.

That is the sort of thing that the rules would be good for. Have you considered repurposing T4/5 RUs and Pocket Empires, or taken a look at the various boardgame/wargames that handle this sort of thing?

 

[MasterGwydion]

You all do realize that, over the course of their careers (12 terms), by Traveller rules, 97% of the population of Charted Space will have served in the military or been a drifter and be barred from at least one career. You only need to roll a 5 or less one time out of 12 rolls. 23% will be barred from 2 careers. 29% will be barred from 3 careers. 27% will be barred from 4 careers. 18% will be barred from 5 careers. 9% will be barred from 6 careers. These are the RAW. Literally 23% of everyone in Charted Space will have spent minimum 1 term as a drifter in the lives and be banned from 2 careers.

None of this is covered in the fluff text. It seems to be a largely ignored part of the Traveller rules.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Once again this is something that has been discussed for over forty years.
The Traveller character generation rules are for Travellers, they generate the prior careers of player characters. They are not a demographic snapshot of Empire.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Once again this is something that has been discussed for over forty years.
The Traveller character generation rules are for Travellers, they generate the prior careers of player characters. They are not a demographic snapshot of Empire.

Then why are NPCs given careers if they do not use the career rules? Are there no rules anywhere for what are people who aren't Travellers? You know, like pretty much everyone else in Traveller.

By the Traveller rules, I can roll up a whole star system, but by what you are telling Me, there is not one rule for writing up an NPC?

 

[J. L. Brown]

Once again this is something that has been discussed for over forty years.
The Traveller character generation rules are for Travellers, they generate the prior careers of player characters. They are not a demographic snapshot of Empire.

That sort of shoots another hole in your 'Mustering out is the process of turning an NPC into a PC' hot-take.