Trade Code Agriculture

[MasterGwydion]

Why is the Agricultural Trade Code capped at Hydrology 8? Is Aquacultural not a thing? Do fish not count as food?

 

[Terry Mixon]

Why is the Agricultural Trade Code capped at Hydrology 8? Is Aquacultural not a thing? Do fish not count as food?

I'm pretty sure they limited Ag to being plant based, so no fish. That's likely also why Ag is capped at 8 hydro. No land to grow plants. Of course, there is hydroponics.

 

[Condottiere]

I was thinking sea weed or kelp.

 

[Geir]

There's also Kelp farms...
(I seem to be simu-typing a lot. Means I'm spending too much time in the forum)

And if you're a filter feeder, you just skim the ocean for nutrients (okay mostly tiny things that are more likely to be animals or protists, but who's counting, and this is all very earth-specific)

I also don't like that 'Garden' is capped at Hydro 7, when even 9 on Earth would give you 50 millions square kilometers of land... and that 'Poor' is a physical, not wealth thing (Hellworld from T5 is more useful at describe places not to go for a stroll) and that 'Industrial' is only a thing that happens on tainted or otherwise inhospitable world... and that a world can be 'Rich' but have no water.

But it was written in the 70s. Some of the above (including agricultural limits) could use some updating, but for it to be simple and deterministic, it needs to be fixed values (not 'and then roll 1D and on a 6') so Industrial is the hard nut there - although it could be that past a certain TL, all you need is High Pop (but that still makes it an OR statement - maybe toss in a starport modifier instead? Starport B+ + Pop 9+ = In ?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Last time I looked there were plenty of plants that grow in or even underwater. There are even seaweed and kelp farms feeding people today.

 

[Condottiere]

Algae.

And underwater volcanic vents.

 

[MasterGwydion]

There's also Kelp farms...
(I seem to be simu-typing a lot. Means I'm spending too much time in the forum)

And if you're a filter feeder, you just skim the ocean for nutrients (okay mostly tiny things that are more likely to be animals or protists, but who's counting, and this is all very earth-specific)

I also don't like that 'Garden' is capped at Hydro 7, when even 9 on Earth would give you 50 millions square kilometers of land... and that 'Poor' is a physical, not wealth thing (Hellworld from T5 is more useful at describe places not to go for a stroll) and that 'Industrial' is only a thing that happens on tainted or otherwise inhospitable world... and that a world can be 'Rich' but have no water.

But it was written in the 70s. Some of the above (including agricultural limits) could use some updating, but for it to be simple and deterministic, it needs to be fixed values (not 'and then roll 1D and on a 6') so Industrial is the hard nut there - although it could be that past a certain TL, all you need is High Pop (but that still makes it an OR statement - maybe toss in a starport modifier instead? Starport B+ + Pop 9+ = In ?

Shouldn't Industrial be based on GWP divided by Pop? Then you have 3 ranges Ni, Normal, and In. This will work for all worlds with the same ranges.

 

[Geir]

Shouldn't Industrial be based on GWP divided by Pop? Then you have 3 ranges Ni, Normal, and In. This will work for all worlds with the same ranges.

No. Two reasons:
1 - You can have tons of raw materials, or be a financial center and be wealthy without heavy industry: think half the Persian Gulf or all of Singapore.
2- Chicken, Egg (A: Dinosaur, but that is neither here nor there) The trade codes should come from the primary UWP stats, so that's Starport, TL, and the 6 numbers in between. That makes them compatible with just about any version of Traveller (well, not GURPS). GWP is something that eventually falls out the other end of trade codes... like an egg.

 

[MasterGwydion]

No. Two reasons:
1 - You can have tons of raw materials, or be a financial center and be wealthy without heavy industry: think half the Persian Gulf or all of Singapore.
2- Chicken, Egg (A: Dinosaur, but that is neither here nor there) The trade codes should come from the primary UWP stats, so that's Starport, TL, and the 6 numbers in between. That makes them compatible with just about any version of Traveller (well, not GURPS). GWP is something that eventually falls out the other end of trade codes... like an egg.

None of those things are useful in determining Industrial Capacity or Industrial Exports. In My view Ag and In shouldn't be tied to UWP at all. All they should signify is if the world produces more than it uses. That is not something that can be randomly rolled though.

 

[Condottiere]

Could depend on actual size and scale.

Might just be a case in self sufficiency for a really large population.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Could depend on actual size and scale.

Might just be a case in self sufficiency for a really large population.

Exactly. How much they actually produce is not relevant. All that is important is if they produce more or less than they need for themselves. Nothing in the UWP can tell you that.

 

[Condottiere]

Import statistics, which the game can't really give.

Something the dungeon master has to make up.

Though the text might give some throwaway hints.

 

[agentwigggles]

Because Traveller is inspired by 1940s and 1950s western pulp sci fi. And the concept of farming, was midwestern farmer on land, growing cerial crops. Fishermen arent farmers. So for that sci fi, that too is what farming is, and because of that, that is what farming is for Traveller.
I dont think the actual question is why ag is limted to 80% water, but why ag is a tag at all.
Vertical farming exists. Articial enviroments are more or less perfected sometime past TL10.
So all places should be groing their own food, without relying on conventual industrial farming.
But its there to emulate the 1940s sci fi. So thats what argroculture is. Its farmers, in overalls, over vast fields of wheat or corn ect.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Because Traveller is inspired by 1940s and 1950s western pulp sci fi. And the concept of farming, was midwestern farmer on land, growing cerial crops. Fishermen arent farmers. So for that sci fi, that too is what farming is, and because of that, that is what farming is for Traveller.
I dont think the actual question is why ag is limted to 80% water, but why ag is a tag at all.
Vertical farming exists. Articial enviroments are more or less perfected sometime past TL10.
So all places should be groing their own food, without relying on conventual industrial farming.
But its there to emulate the 1940s sci fi. So thats what argroculture is. Its farmers, in overalls, over vast fields of wheat or corn ect.

Sadly though, the rules of the game do not support that. They do support the vertical farming model though.

 

[Condottiere]

Fish rustling
by Stuart Brabbs | Jan 26, 2011 | General

Sadly I have to report that a large quantity of 5 -7″ brown trout destined for the River Ayr have been stolen from rearing ponds at some time in the run up to Christmas. Unconfirmed reports put the number taken at several thousand fish. This was a new venture funded totally by the few enthusiasts who had establish and looked after the fish from the moment they started feeding. I believe that the fish were as healthy as any ever reared within the catchment and were all the product of River Ayr stock.

Anyone who has been offered fingerling brown trout at knock down prices or of suspicious origin should either contact the police or the Ayr Board baillifs at Borland Fishery, Cumnock.

The crime of theft isn’t the only issue here. Stocking these fish outside of the Ayr catchment would itself be an offense due to new restrictions that came into force in 2009. This is a biosecurity issue that may have implications for native trout in the receiving waters.

 

[Limpin Legin]

I was lead to believe that the CRB default reasoning was Imperial human and all equipment and world codes were chosen according to whether they are fit for human. A note to this point would be to consider that humans do not naturally live or breathe underwater, so would require some dry land mass to process their lives, outside of fishing. Maybe 20% of the world's surface is a good value?

If you wanted Aliens who could survive under different environmental conditions, or in underwater cities, then that sort of material should perhaps be included in the A of CS sourcebooks, or in the TC, or the WBH.

If you include the notion of underwater cities, then doesn't than count as "dry" land? So, a populated world covered with surface liquid would never be 100% liquid, because the underwater cities constitute a percentage of dry land.

That's how RAW makes sense to me.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I was lead to believe that the CRB default reasoning was Imperial human and all equipment and world codes were chosen according to whether they are fit for human. A note to this point would be to consider that humans do not naturally live or breathe underwater, so would require some dry land mass to process their lives, outside of fishing. Maybe 20% of the world's surface is a good value?

If you wanted Aliens who could survive under different environmental conditions, or in underwater cities, then that sort of material should perhaps be included in the A of CS sourcebooks, or in the TC, or the WBH.

If you include the notion of underwater cities, then doesn't than count as "dry" land? So, a populated world covered with surface liquid would never be 100% liquid, because the underwater cities constitute a percentage of dry land.

That's how RAW makes sense to me.

Has no one seen the movie Waterworld? Dry land was mythical. lol They lived their whole lives with most of them never even having seen Dirt.

 

[Condottiere]