tourney scoring

[katadder]

dont you just hate that the enemy can fly one fighter away to deny you a 20-0 victory? surely if hes been this badly beaten then it should be 20-0 even if you force the enemy to retreat.

my idea on this is if your enemy has no ships or fighters left on the board at the end of the game it should be 20-0 due to you having total superiority over the battlefield and either destroying or driving off the enemy. this having one ship or fighter fly away to deny your opponent points is unsportsmanlike for one and unrealistic for another, in campaigns tactical withdrawels have merits, in tourneys they should be a detriment cos its not about surviving ships, its about defeating the enemy.

 

[Reaverman]

dont you just hate that the enemy can fly one fighter away to deny you a 20-0 victory? surely if hes been this badly beaten then it should be 20-0 even if you force the enemy to retreat.

my idea on this is if your enemy has no ships or fighters left on the board at the end of the game it should be 20-0 due to you having total superiority over the battlefield and either destroying or driving off the enemy. this having one ship or fighter fly away to deny your opponent points is unsportsmanlike for one and unrealistic for another, in campaigns tactical withdrawels have merits, in tourneys they should be a detriment cos its not about surviving ships, its about defeating the enemy.

But in a battle people dont always fight to the death, some people run away. Thats why you get limited VP's, as you have driven them off but not destroyed them.

In the big picture, a model fleeing the table, is going back to report lost ships. Or, even deliver valuable technical data, on the enemy fleet that just whacked his fleet.

 

[Burger]

As Matt said when he made the ruling, if you are planning for defeat in this way, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage right from the start. You are playing like a loser.

Oh and in the Annihilation scenario, you do get 20-0 even if fighters suvive or ships withdraw, because the victory conditions do not use VP's.

 

[katadder]

which is fine for campaign play but not tourney play. yes you may save VPs but in a tourney you have just totally conceded the battlefield to the enemy. which to me is a total loss as its not campaign play. runnign away should mean you lose all points.

 

[Burger]

which is fine for campaign play but not tourney play. yes you may save VPs but in a tourney you have just totally conceded the battlefield to the enemy. which to me is a total loss as its not campaign play. runnign away should mean you lose all points.

Sorry thats just BS. You're saying its better to be totally wiped out than for half your fleet to survive? "We die for the one, we die for the one"?

 

[Alexb83]

You've conceded the field, but you've saved the lives of your crews and the assets which are your ships.

The enemy should be penalised for letting you escape, not you for making a sensible tactical withdrawal.

 

[katadder]

its fair enough if they escape by hyperspace but if you just flee off your table edge it isnt, i mean losing one kotha isnt much, but it guarantees you wont lose 20-0 but in theory that kotha could be chased down as its slow and needs a jump gate.
like i said running is fine for campaign play as you are looking after your ships/crews but tourney play its about who controls the space at the end of the game and if no enemy is alive or on the table at the end then you control that space totally. fleeing a fighter to say we got our asses handed to us is not saving ships or crew anyway except one crewman who may or may not make it to a jumpgate depending on lifesupport, fuel reserves and if theres even a jumpgate within range of his fighter.
the only people i can see standing up for this fleeing thing are the ones worried about losing the game. or those who are completely cheesey are will do anything to deny their opponents points. you arnt doing it to save your ships, you are doing it cos you cant get points any other way. this is not fluff or real ships people, its a game, so justify it anyway you want but fleeing a ship just to save points is totally off IMO.
btw no annihilation scenario in next tourney so fleeing a fighter works to save you points.

 

[Burger]

its fair enough if they escape by hyperspace but if you just flee off your table edge it isnt, i mean losing one kotha isnt much, but it guarantees you wont lose 20-0 but in theory that kotha could be chased down as its slow and needs a jump gate.

Well if your fleet is busy holding the space, they wouldn't chase a lone fighter, would they?

Thats why annihilation does give you 20-0... there is no space to hold, so it is assumed that you do chase any escapees.

 

[Reaverman]

So what you are saying; "Hey I cant kill you ships quick enough, and thats not fair" ? :twisted:

 

[katadder]

if its a lone fighter they could chase it down quite easy. also if you really want to save the lives of your crew and your ships dont turn up that way no one dies.
also think on it this way, you flee you last ship to get help but leave a ship that maybe you could have crippled behind to murder all the civilians on the planet behind you.
not saying cant kill them quick enuf, cos people can, but you cant kill all the enemy if they hold a fighter back or a ship just APTEs off the board - maybe run it as a chase scenario then, you have to flee out the range of the enemy guns. but if they have jump engines and you dont they will probably see you at the jump gate so you lose the ship anyway and dont get to report back. also correct me if i'm wrong but dont these ships have long range communications? they can tell the high command they lost without sending a ship back to do it.
fleeing ships has value in campaigns, not tourneys and shouldnt have a place in tourneys unless you want to give your opponents the points for a whitewash which effectively they have done if you feel the need to flee anyway cos at that point you are admitting you have had your ass handed to you and are trying to save face by doing a "tactical withdrawel to save the lives of your crew and report back" when in fact you just lost and dont like to admit it

 

[Burger]

Well an official ruling has already been made, and the vast majority of people agreed that it makes sense the last few times you brought it up. It's not going to change, so lets just leave it shall we.

 

[Alexb83]

Long range tachyon communications are limited to large vessels. So, a large vessel can talk to the fighter patrol it's just sent 2 jumps away (like B5 does) but I don't think small fighters can do the same (for instance, to call earth you need to use the Gold channels and dedicated babcom etc.)

I always got the impression that jump points had to be held open for point to point transmissions, especially encrypted ones like Sheridan sends into hyperspace in S2 premiere (and you would want to encrypt any messages home in the battle, not transmit them in the clear).

 

[katadder]

nope, you said to not discuss it in rulesmasters so discussing it here, only seems to be a couple of you commenting on it, perhaps the rest dont wanna be jumped on by the buger/reaverman tag team
anyway ending like that prob means you worried i getting good points across
i am suggesting it as an alternative cos the current way leaves cowards a way out to get points perhaps i should flee a fighter every game 1st turn just to make a point tomorrow.

 

[Alexb83]

Cowards? I would say that someone who knows when to withdraw his forces vs. a superior opponent and save from total annihilation is a wise commander.

However, someone who walks a ship off the board in turn 1 to guarantee themselves no total loss, they should lose sportsmanship points.

 

[Burger]

perhaps i should flee a fighter every game 1st turn just to make a point tomorrow.

Go for it. As Matt said... play like a loser, you'll lose. Its all about your mindset. And as Alex says yes thats what sportsmanship points are for; a last surviving fighter fleeing is fine, but running one off at the start of the battle is unsporting.

 

[katadder]

not playing like a loser, just making a point. also on the not sporting idea, its just as sporting as blowing up my ships supposedly its an official ruling, plus i am saving the life of that crewman so its gotta be just as sporting as any other tactic otherwise people wouldnt use it.
as for withdrawing versus a superior opponent, thats a viable tactic if you use jump points rather than just running off your table edge but shuold still get your opponent 20pts for the win for being superior
plus alex what i withdraw him turn 2 or even 3? is taht any less sporting, or just keep him near the board edge in case thigns go bad? thats what i have seen with patrol ships or scouts as they can effect the battle within 24" but flee on a moments notice and now people know they can do this with fighters instead.

 

[Alexb83]

Just because a rule can be abused, doesn't mean it should be (or indeed that it will be). And anyone who does abuse it - just don't play them, or bring it to the attention of the tourney organiser and let them adjust the points for sportsmanship.

 

[Burger]

Fine you win, whatever. Its an unfair ruling, blah blah. But its a ruling, so lets just live with it.

 

[H]

Just because a rule can be abused, doesn't mean it should be (or indeed that it will be). And anyone who does abuse it - just don't play them, or bring it to the attention of the tourney organiser and let them adjust the points for sportsmanship.

I may be feeling stpid here, but, um, isn't the point of a tourney to win? so anyway to deny your opponent getting points should be acceptable. just as in any real military situatiuon.

Cap'n, the germans have surrounded us on 3 sides, we are outnumbered, outgunned, and we just used our last teabag. Should we plan a withdrawal?
Certainly not corporal, that would be most unsporting of us, we should needlessly throw our lives away.
um, would it not be wise to perhaps get intel back to HQ then sir?
definately not, the Germans might go and complain direct to Churchill that we aren't doing our job fairly, no, with no tea, we have nothing left to live for anyway, prepare to continue a hopeless fight, you know it's the right thing to do corporal.

( I think I am playing company of heroes to much.. it seems to be influincing my thought process, but damnit, I just ran out of teabags!)

 

[Burger]

Just because a rule can be abused, doesn't mean it should be (or indeed that it will be). And anyone who does abuse it - just don't play them, or bring it to the attention of the tourney organiser and let them adjust the points for sportsmanship.

I may be feeling stpid here, but, um, isn't the point of a tourney to win? so anyway to deny your opponent getting points should be acceptable. just as in any real military situatiuon.

Cap'n, the germans have surrounded us on 3 sides, we are outnumbered, outgunned, and we just used our last teabag. Should we plan a withdrawal?
Certainly not corporal, that would be most unsporting of us, we should needlessly throw our lives away.
um, would it not be wise to perhaps get intel back to HQ then sir?
definately not, the Germans might go and complain direct to Churchill that we aren't doing our job fairly, no, with no tea, we have nothing left to live for anyway, prepare to continue a hopeless fight, you know it's the right thing to do corporal.

( I think I am playing company of heroes to much.. it seems to be influincing my thought process, but damnit, I just ran out of teabags!)

Of course it's not unsporting to run away if the battle is lost. Whats under question of being unsporting goes more like this...

"Cap'n, there are some Germans on the horizon, a fleet roughly equal to ours"
"Spiffing old chap. Send our smallest lifeboat home, so they don't get 20 TPs"