Tourney, home of cheese

Nightmares about Minbari said:
OK, there's a lot of talk about cheesy fleets appearing in tournements.

But maybe that is the point of a competitive system, to take the rule book and squeeze whatever advantage you can out of it?

If you start to restrict fleets that you consider cheesy, then who decides what is and isn't allowed?

Tournies are not friendly games, not campaigns, they are entirely focused on winning, and players should be free to do whatever they can within the rules to win.

Personally I don't play tourney games, circumstances are such that I don't have the option, but I think that they serve a good purpose as a home for the victory obsessed.

But they ARE beatable with balanced fleets are they not?


It is one thing to powergame, it is another thing to be a good sport and remind your opponent of rules which could potentially sink there chances of winning. If you are going to allow them to mess up, then you are a total dick, but if you are going to powergame, that just means that your idea of fun is winning. If someone wants to use a balanced fleet, and looses because of it, they have no right to whine. By now it should be obvious that many players at tourney's powergame, and that if you don't, your chances of winning decrease.



Very very true.

Not meaning to insult anyone, actually trying to be inclusive. Just trying to make the point that those who see wargames as an interlectual challenge, trying to get the best out of a rule system to achieve victory shouldn't be excluded from ACTA, and that tourney format is perfect for them. Not everyone who plays tourney games is like this, of course, but surely you shouldn't exclude those who wargame for these reasons?

Thats what a real war is about isn't it? Pressing your advantage over your enemy to the most extreme limit. It shoudln't be any different on the tabletop.

I think that the US in gerneral is a bit more competitive like that than the UK players from what Ive seen on the board though.

It's in our genes, part of our culture, and oh yeah, we also got to prove to you brits that we are your equals, not a younger brother who somehow managed to grow up to be bigger then his big bro and also have the build of arnold shwarzenegger compaired to a scrawny 12 year old nerd.

No reason why you can't have fun *And* be competitive. You just need to regularly ban the fleets that prove to be a problem. (And keep those in mind for rules revision when the time comes)

Yeah, a friend of mine(40k player) lives in an area where everyone powergames(and they are very very fashionable as well, as in high fashion, not nerd fashion). If you don't then you ain't cool. And I mean everyone. Like 30 powergamers, all of them, and when they play eachother, they powergame, and they have fun doing it.

Personally, I have to say that a single ship type representing every single ship in a fleet is a bit sad, boring, monotonous, and un-fluffy.
 
chaos0xomega said:
Thats what a real war is about isn't it? Pressing your advantage over your enemy to the most extreme limit. It shoudln't be any different on the tabletop.

But the tabletop is a game. What constitutes the extreme limit? Using loaded dice? Putting laxative in your opponent's drink, and moving his miniatures when he rushes to the loo? Physically injuring your opponent so he can no longer play?
 
Greg Smith said:
chaos0xomega said:
Thats what a real war is about isn't it? Pressing your advantage over your enemy to the most extreme limit. It shoudln't be any different on the tabletop.

But the tabletop is a game. What constitutes the extreme limit? Using loaded dice? Putting laxative in your opponent's drink, and moving his miniatures when he rushes to the loo? Physically injuring your opponent so he can no longer play?
<writes down notes>
 
Greg, I agree! Tactical advantages being pressed home are one thing and I'd actually enjoy the game less if my opponent didn't play to the best of his ability, however, I also always play in a spirit of fairness and enjoyment. This means things like if an opponent simply forgets to do something then I'll offer to let him do it (but won't ask for it myself as I don't want to unduely pressure him into something he doesn't consider standard), etc.

Winning is an objective but by no means the only one even in a tournament situation. One thing I would expect to see too is fleet lists that are (fiercely) competative. This may even mean cheesy and broken to some people but to some degree I wouldn't condemn the player for taking such a list. I would want the list itself changed though if it was obviously unbalanced (too weak as well).
 
crazy thing is an appollo at battle level is worse than 2 of these things and you get 3 saggis for that apollo.
 
OK, I think a distinction can be drawn between cheesy and broken here.

A cheesy fleet is one that takes advantage of the rules, or a particular combination of ship traits to maxamise an advantage.

A broken fleet or ship is one that is obviously out of line with the rest of the fleet in terms of balance.

The confusion comes about because the 10 sag fleet is a cheesy option using a probably broken ship.

10 of the same skirmish ship is likely to be cheesy, minimising the victory points that you give away to the enemy, ensuring that some of his damage is wasted as overkill, making sure that all your ships are identical to make it difficult to track the damaged ones, etc.

The sag appears to be broken, or be very close to it. Every wargame that includes serious tourney rules will have a few ships that require slight rebalancing from time to time, and Mongoose shouldn't be lynched for it. It just happens.

I'm certainly curious to see what changes in Arm' could require the sag to be upgunned rather than downgraded.
 
I dont have much experience of ACTA tornys...Just the one I ran at I.D.Gaming and to be honest, I don`t recall any cheesy fleet lists there. It was a competative day but I felt that the way people played was in a friendly manner. I dont think there was any complaints about any of the players or there lists.

Just my take on it any way. My list is far from cheesy for the torny. Raiders...
Some people may be going to win the torny, I`m just hoping to win a game!! :lol:

Cheers,
Barry
 
Nidalap,
You know you can play a combined league fleet, which includes Raiders... so you can use other league ships for some of your points if you want.
 
I'm certainly curious to see what changes in Arm' could require the sag to be upgunned rather than downgraded.


The excuse being given on the PDF thread is that the Sag is to make the Early Years strong at low priority and weak at high and that the later year stuff is reverse. Mongoose is screwing up badly with this logic. Very badly. You don't balance a game by choosing a group of priority levels(in this case Patrol, Skirmish, and Raid) where the race can completely dominate. This is what lead to the tournament lists in the first place. The Minbari(and White Star) completely dominated high priority games. Only now Earth will be doing it on low to mid priority games.
 
Ok Ive skipped alot of this thread so probably am repeating whats already been said but for me tournaments are NOT about winning at all costs, even when theres prizes up for grabs.

Tournaments, to my mind, are about and should ALWAYS be about, meeting and playing against people who you havent before (or at least don't often). Wargaming/Roleplaying is a social hobby and tournaments are just a way of organising a day of playing games with people from all over the place and not just your regular opponents at your local club/mates house/whatever.

Now if the only tounrnaments you've ever been to are Games Workshop 'nationals' etc then thats going to skew anyones oppinion as THOSE particular tournaments are the TRUE home of the powergamer but every smaller tournament Ive been to or run has been along the lines above and any I run in future will also be aimed down those lines :)

I would go on longer but I have to go to a job interview now so that will have to do for now :p
 
Yes , thanks Burger, You can only use them from 1 NAW fleet though? not mix and match from diffrent races. I have a few options.... none of which would make any diffreence against Minbari last night.

Tank...you missing any dice? just couldn`t make a stealth roll last night, must have some of your Torny dice :lol:

Any advice on what LoNAW to add to my fleet? think I have up to 1 raid point to use?

Dont want a torny winning fleet, just one with a feel for the back ground and one the helps to make fun, enjoyable games as an opponent.

Cheers,
Barry
 
You can now field a "combined league" fleet instead of a "raiders" fleet. Combined league fleets can include any number of ships from the Abbai, Brakiri, Vree, Drazi and Raiders lists.

A couple of Strikehawks, or a Solarhawk, could be pretty nasty! Or 1 Strikehawk and 2 Vaarls.
 
I do have another question?
Not related to raiders

A penticon formation starts with 4 ships. If I break it up into 2 lots of 2 during the game do they both still keep the pentacon ability according to the new rules? Can i even do that?



Also I was thinking about a Raiders fleet list with 1 point of NAW, Battlewagons, delta V`s and double V`s.Was gonna use a Batrado as a sponge. any tips?

Barry
 
If a pentacon is split, it doesn't form 2 pentacons, no. Its not a worm ;)
Any ship that moves out of the pentacon, operates solo from that point on. Pentacons must be declared before deployment.

Batrado's look pretty nice, yeah. Maybe keep them in hyperspace, and jump them right into weapons range. Just remember all those Delta V's will be giving away VP's by the shedload as they get killed!
 
Doh!
Had To try though eh?
:lol:

Cheers mate.

Do you like my avatar? Had to get ready for pirate day
 
Arrrrr, yer avatar have a good black soul. Much better'n the rest o' these scurvy land lubbers.
 
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