Tournament Saggitarius: Raid or Skirmish?

[prelude_to_war]

Spread throughout this forum are references to the tournament Saggitarius and how it is overpowered. Indeed, it's even making an appearance x10 in the online tournament...so let's have it - does the EA Sag as it stands need to be updated?

 

[Gorkamecha]

When you can crack the 2 shadow hunter/1 scout fleet, it probably means you're broken...

 

[Geekybiker]

Should have just labeled the first option "Im an EA player"

 

[Chernobyl]

we'll see how they really fare in the tourney.
funny nobody said this of the olympus after the 10 olympii fleet appeared...

 

[JayRaider]

Maybe the question is can the 10 Sag EA 5PT Raid be defeated?
If there unbeatable, they need a change.
What choice of 5 Raid fleet would u choose to defeat the 10 Sag EA fleet?
I imagine Interceptors would help, or maybe Vorlon Adaptive Armour?
Discuss :shock: :lol:

 

[Locutus9956]

its not necessarily firepower being the issue, but for a ship with that much firepower at that PL it is a bit too tough for my liking. The problem with the 10 sag ea tourney fleet is that by the time you inflict enough damage to seriously deplete its firepower youve probably taken something like 100 odd missile shots at you. Not many fleets can take that kind of punishment (even Vorlons). Ironically the best suited fleet to take ON that sort of force might well be another EA fleet (with the abundance of interceptors).

As a fleet to take on the 10 Sags though, aside from Earth Force, how about a primus and 3 Sullusts? Serious beam firepower with decent defensive capabilities too.

Or how about a good old fashioned Sharlin to the face tactic? The majority of those sags will fail their stealth and 6 Neutron lasers should take one or two out quite quickly...

The problem is that whilst I can come up with ideas on how to fight the 10 sag idea, Its still seems a bit tough. Id say move em back to raid, maybe a TINY boost though. (It seems to me that at the moment youd be nuts to take an apollo over 4 sags and the apollo is supposed to be essentially a better sag basically and whist it IS better, its not better ENOUGH for 2 pls difference)

 

[animus]

<<BEGIN RANT>>

I HATE threads like this because it demonstrates fundamental problems with the game. This one, namely, the tournament lists and the basic lists are different. It's hard to sell this game to gamers who want balance and consistency. The PL level system is cool, but keeps being shown to be flawed: multiple lists & victory point problems among them.

Mini/maxing is problem in many games and I don't want every fleet to be the same, but something needs to be done to smooth out these problems. A 10 Sag fleet just seems like a cheap ploy, but the rules allow it.

Balance and fairness comes through playtesting - lots of playtesting. Playtesting by people who try to break the rules so the game is proofed against those who will try.

<<END RANT>>

 

[Pauly_D]

Balance and fairness comes through playtesting - lots of playtesting. Playtesting by people who try to break the rules so the game is proofed against those who will try.

we did a lot of playtesting on this and on similar issues, firstly although it is a powerful ship most of its weapons are side arc, also it doesnt get the oppertunity to take varient missiles so no double damage missiles. Try Beam weapons especially against them

 

[animus]

Actually side arc weapons are superior to front arc weapons. 10 years of Car Wars has proven this to me.

Stilll, the 10X Sag thing shouldn't be allowed somehow. It's mini/maxing. My main issue is with the the 2 lists - tourney and normal. Seeing that the victory point system can also be easily manipulated by choosing fleets that basically can't lose is another issue. Don't get me wrong, the game rocks, I just want the game to catch on with non B5 fan gamers. That can ony be accomplished by a solid system.

 

[Geekybiker]

Just imagine the destruction if you could roll like in b5w. Sit at the back of the board facing sideways. Fire tubes! Roll. Next turn, fire tubes! Roll, etc etc.

 

[Chernobyl]

side arcs in car wars were larger due to tracing the corners of the counter not the 90 arcs we have here. also shooting penalties for front shots, speed penalties, etc...

I don't like seeing 10 anything fleets...another reason to vary the fleet PL.

Chern

 

[prelude_to_war]

we'll see how they really fare in the tourney.
funny nobody said this of the olympus after the 10 olympii fleet appeared...

Perhaps we should run a 10 Olympii vs. 10 Sag test game...

 

[Gorkamecha]

we'll see how they really fare in the tourney.
funny nobody said this of the olympus after the 10 olympii fleet appeared...

Perhaps we should run a 10 Olympii vs. 10 Sag test game...

The 10 Olypmii fleet loses. The sags are still way out shooting them at range....Frankly there are more then a few fleets that can take out the 10 Os without to much of a problem.

I find it odd that the 10 sag fleet is considered broken, but the 2 shadow hunter fleet/1 scout is not.

 

[IronChefZod]

The Sagittarius needs to be updated if it's going to stay at skirmish. I'd drop 1 AD off of the port and starboard arcs and either lower the hull to 4 or drop some damage and crew.

Alternately if it's going to be moved up to raid I'd add maybe 1 AD to front and rear arcs. Maybe port and starboard arcs as well.

I prefer bumping it back up to a raid ship, but if it does go back up to raid I think it should have a slight increase in power.

Regarding beam weapons vs Sagittarius, they are still hull 5 with a ton of hull and crew for a skirmish ship.

 

[Triggy]

we'll see how they really fare in the tourney.
funny nobody said this of the olympus after the 10 olympii fleet appeared...

Perhaps we should run a 10 Olympii vs. 10 Sag test game...

The 10 Olypmii fleet loses. The sags are still way out shooting them at range....Frankly there are more then a few fleets that can take out the 10 Os without to much of a problem.

I find it odd that the 10 sag fleet is considered broken, but the 2 shadow hunter fleet/1 scout is not.

That's because the Shadow fleet actually crumbles the instant you kill one Hunter. The Sagittarius fleet kills most enemy fleets before they even get into range.

The Shadow fleet is tough and pretty easy to use to a basic level but it has nemesis fleets (most war level ships hit them hard and even the worst fighters can really do a lot of damage - one of the few fleets Raiders do well against).

The Sagittarius fleet allows a minimum of 2AD to be fired every turn (if the player knows what he's doing and manoeuvres sensibly) and the first turn salvo takes out 40% of just about any fleet I can put together. Drazi and maybe Drakh are the only fleets that can stand up to them on an open table. Strangely, if there is terrain then the Sagittarius fleet becomes balanced again...it's a pity there's only terrain 50% of the time!

 

[Geekybiker]

The Sagittarius needs to be updated if it's going to stay at skirmish. I'd drop 1 AD off of the port and starboard arcs and either lower the hull to 4 or drop some damage and crew.

Regarding beam weapons vs Sagittarius, they are still hull 5 with a ton of hull and crew for a skirmish ship.

I really think most long range bombardment ships like that should be hull 4. Its a rear of the fleet ship and shouldnt be expected to stand upto direct fire.

 

[animus]

The Sagittarius needs to be updated if it's going to stay at skirmish. I'd drop 1 AD off of the port and starboard arcs and either lower the hull to 4 or drop some damage and crew.

Regarding beam weapons vs Sagittarius, they are still hull 5 with a ton of hull and crew for a skirmish ship.

I really think most long range bombardment ships like that should be hull 4. Its a rear of the fleet ship and shouldnt be expected to stand upto direct fire.

Good point. I agree.

 

[Cailet]

10 Olympii was really savage because of Heavy Missiles. Take them away and you have far less damage potential. They just didn't have the AD to pull the same trick with standard missiles. Sags do have the raw AD to do it, plus they can zig-zag to keep the pounding going, Olympii can't.

 

[Ranxerox]

10 Sagittarius beat Prelude to War's Vorlon Fleet in the online tourney though it was a tougher battle than expected. In my opinion, 5AD P/S is a step in the right direction for fixing the Sagittarius. Reducing the hull to 4 might not be a bad idea, but it needs playtesting. It might actually be overkill actually. Dropping an interceptor and 10-20% damage and crew might be more fitting.

 

[Karlopopoli]

I find it interesting that the Drakh fleet book states they are balacned for fighting in boht tourney rules and campaign, I'd like to see a drakh fleeet face 5 pts of saggitarius and see how it fares in both rules sets.