Tournament Saggitarius: Raid or Skirmish?

Does the tournament EA Saggitarius need to be rethought?

  • It's fine as it; EA needs the punch!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Too poweful for Skirmish; raise it back to Raid and keep as is.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Keep it at Skirmish but lower the P/S AD to 2, 3 or 4.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Locutus9956

Mongoose
lastbesthope said:
Locutus9956 said:
EDIT: Also EA lose missile varients and a LOT of ship varients (and many of them are rather GOOD varients (some of the Hyperion varients, especially the patrol versions, were rather nasty)

There aren't any Patrol level variants of the Hyperion, a couple of Skirmish level ones though, a couple of Raid, and one Battle

LBH

I meant Skirmish. :) For some reason I always seem to get Skirmish and Patrol mixed up in my mind when I talk about them :p
 

JayRaider

Mongoose
Playtesting is a mammoth task, with huge possible combinations. Its understandable that some things are missed. Then its up the players to fill in the necessary gaps and provide further playtesting under fire.
Initially i was exasperated by the continueing updates and supplements but then i realised this game is still a work in progress.
Another positive is that You can help help this progression, by playing and posting your views about the game. 8)
 

markn

Mongoose
JayRaider said:
Playtesting is a mammoth task, with huge possible combinations. Its understandable that some things are missed. Then its up the players to fill in the necessary gaps and provide further playtesting under fire.
Initially i was exasperated by the continueing updates and supplements but then i realised this game is still a work in progress.
Another positive is that You can help help this progression, by playing and posting your views about the game. 8)

I agree whole heartedly. It is in fact one of the reasons I post on the boards. I just think that more info is needed from most posters to make the proper improvements from the game. Having said that, it doesn't take long to consider the implications of a player using all the same ships in his fleet such as the Sag.

I am so looking forward to Armageddon but fear it won't be quite enough. I am hoping that the 2nd edition will be a little more rock solid.
 

Davesaint

Mongoose
JayRaider said:
Playtesting is a mammoth task, with huge possible combinations. Its understandable that some things are missed. Then its up the players to fill in the necessary gaps and provide further playtesting under fire.
Initially i was exasperated by the continueing updates and supplements but then i realised this game is still a work in progress.
Another positive is that You can help help this progression, by playing and posting your views about the game. 8)

I agree. The other problem is finding the right type of playtester. The perfect playtester is one who will bend the rules until they are in a pretzel shape, and then be honest enought to tell you what they did to get there. It's pretty hard to find that combination. I know plenty of people who will bend the rules to that extent, but who won't tell you the loopholes they used to get you there.

Dave
 

l33tpenguin

Mongoose
Davesaint said:
JayRaider said:
Playtesting is a mammoth task, with huge possible combinations. Its understandable that some things are missed. Then its up the players to fill in the necessary gaps and provide further playtesting under fire.
Initially i was exasperated by the continueing updates and supplements but then i realised this game is still a work in progress.
Another positive is that You can help help this progression, by playing and posting your views about the game. 8)

I agree. The other problem is finding the right type of playtester. The perfect playtester is one who will bend the rules until they are in a pretzel shape, and then be honest enought to tell you what they did to get there. It's pretty hard to find that combination. I know plenty of people who will bend the rules to that extent, but who won't tell you the loopholes they used to get you there.

Dave

I love thinking outside the box :)

"You can't do that!"
"Says who? its not in the rules against it"
"But its just... not right!"
"Point?"
 

lastbesthope

Mongoose
Locutus9956 said:
I meant Skirmish. :) For some reason I always seem to get Skirmish and Patrol mixed up in my mind when I talk about them :p

No biggie, took me a while to remember the correct order of the PLs myself.

LBH
 

CZuschlag

Mongoose
(Long, attempt at humor, you can skip if you want.)

Dave, I agree, but it's even worse.

You need almost an "A-team" of the worst people in the world to game with to playtest. And when done, you have to store of them is only the proper, safe, manner, for the safety of the general populace:

The Rules Lawyer: Everything is legal somehow here. Notices that the scenarios never really say you play on a 4x 6 map, and proposes using missile ships on a 10x14 board. One misplaced prepositional phrase can justify the annexation of Poland to this guy. Matter of fact, you've gotta do it, that's what Rule X.2.12.j.7 says, right? (Proper storage method: clerk for defense at The Hague tribunals).

The Statistician: Grinds numbers upon numbers until he finds the absolute optimal numeric choice, and then beats everyone unconscious with it and only it. Considers Markov Chains in statistics a fundamental human right. Sleeps with a Mathematica or Maple handbook. (Proper storage method: Accountancy.)

The Cheesemeister: Builds fleets that no one else would reasonably build, just to see if they are viable. Occasionally runs across one ship that is individually uninteresting but is absolutely gross if you take nothing else. How about fighting a 10-war battle against 40 or so G'Kariths and their E-mines templating the entire table? Has considered making tiny, tiny miniatures that mount on pins to abuse the base size rule ... and did it, just to see how bad it could get. (Proper storage method: Unemployed, in a small dank apartment. It takes a long time to make all those 1mm x 1mm G'Kariths and paint them well.)

The Theorist: Has played this thing more times than you can count, probably mostly against himself. Because of 45 degree turns, has actually memorized the square root of 2 out to 3 places, just to be sure. Is trying to design a way of recording ACTA moves so he can publish a opening theory guide on the "Recon Run" scenario that reads just like a chess book. May consider the sun a mortal enemy. (Proper storage method: Software tester .... hey, wait, that's me!)

The Odious Opponent: Plays to annoy. Isn't there to actually play the game as designed, but to find some other way to win that takes all fun out of the experience whatsoever. Tries to turn games into something they're not. Craves alternate victory conditions that have nothing to do with the core game system. Doesn't just kill campaigns, but stensils kill marks of them on the side of his beat-up Ford Fiesta. May not have showered in days. (Proper storage method: Polar Weather Station, where the chance of accidental human interaction is nil.)

The Secretary: Can stomach playing these other folks and is willing to actually write up playtest reports of the most recent gaming abuse visited at the table. Actually is willing to remember what happened at 5:30 last night without wanting to kill any other team members. (Proper storage method: priest, monk, Dhali Lama).
 

Triggy

Mongoose
I'm definitely the Statistician with a touch of Theorist (to test the raw numbers...). I certainly work those numbers out before picking fleets and that includes odds of certain criticals and damage points caused by criticals, loss of stealth, AA, etc. when crippled and rounding factors with AA :shock:
 

lastbesthope

Mongoose
I'm a predominantly Rules LAwyer, but in a more 'light side' way than portrayed above. With the capabilities of a Statistician, I'm good at the number crunching.

As for the square root of 2, who doesn't know that it's 1.41421356.......

LBH
 

CZuschlag

Mongoose
I am a theorist ... and I am actually considering notation.

The first step is admitting that you have a problem ... and ... I have a problem.
 

Locutus9956

Mongoose
Id have to be a theorist (with a little Secretary) though I do certainly know people I would class as rules lawyers and statisticians (though in the rules lawyer case not in a horrible way, just as in playing everything to the letter of the rules).

But yeah, Im mosty theorist. And yes I've played lots games against mysself to see how various things work (i actually think if you want to try out a cheesemeister fleet out of curiosity this is a better way of doing it as it will not inspire people to murder you :p)
 

Reaverman

Mongoose
If the Sag get moved to Raid, are the shadow ships gonna be downgraded?

You see if you start changing one thing, then people are gonna to ask for more things to move about and mod. Personally the Sag is ok where it is, its got 4 slow loading weapons, and no other weapon systems (apart from some weak P Beams).

Some one who decides to field 10 Sag, is going to have an amazing first turn and then start to die horribly. Espcially if the opponents are Minbari or shadows (using scouts esp).
 
Reaverman said:
Some one who decides to field 10 Sag, is going to have an amazing first turn and then start to die horribly. Espcially if the opponents are Minbari or shadows (using scouts esp).
I can't wait to see the Sagx10 fleet face off against the 2 Hunter + Scout fleet in the Vassal tournament. I face the Shadow fleet later today with my Vorlons but expect it to be over in short order.
 

Reaverman

Mongoose
prelude_to_war said:
Reaverman said:
Some one who decides to field 10 Sag, is going to have an amazing first turn and then start to die horribly. Espcially if the opponents are Minbari or shadows (using scouts esp).
I can't wait to see the Sagx10 fleet face off against the 2 Hunter + Scout fleet in the Vassal tournament. I face the Shadow fleet later today with my Vorlons but expect it to be over in short order.

Well I am toying with the Idea, we are practising for the Q-Con Tourney. So I am going to give it a go, and see what happens. I am sure Hash and Burger would be up for a laugh :twisted:
 

Locutus9956

Mongoose
The trouble with the Sag at its current level is that its NOT just a slow loading weapon if you use 10. (Here comes the 'theorist' part :p)

Turn 1 60 missile Broadside = 1 or 2 dead enemies most likely (even battle level ships in all likelyhood and if not dead then probably critted out of the game for a while at least)

Turn 2 the trouble is the Sags ARENT out of it, as they can turn and use their forward weapons, sure its only a 20 missile volley then but thats STILL more than 2 Apollos :shock:

Trun 3 the enemy should be all over them but the trouble is that by now there is probably not that much enemy left.

the other problem is that the Sags are actually very hard to kill for a skirmish level ship too (28 hits, hull 5, 2 interceptors makes for a tough little ship to kill for its level). As a raid level ship it actually feels ok (and if you try a fleet of 5 Saggs its actually ok but not unkillable).

Incidentally I DID try out 10 saggs vs the 2 Hunter (at Hull 6) fleet and the Saggs blew them off the table with very little effort. 1 Hunter got in amongst them before dying but couldnt take them out fast enough to save itself.
 
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