Tougher Swords

[Anonymous]

So youv'e laid out all that silver on a new sword and is it really any better than another weapon you could have for one tenth the price? Well if its Akbitanan then it probably is! But for those that can't afford the type of the line stuff here are a few options I thought of that might give swords a little more bang for their buck.

SUNDERING
This truly is the realm of the sword and as the conan rpg emphasises men against men more so than traditional d&d sundering is a way lot more useful. Swords listed in the equipment guide are only a little tougher than their counterparts. I can easily imagine a broadsword sundering a battle axe but the other way round? Well maybe. Anyway how about any weapon other than a sword trying to sunder a sword does so at -2 on the opposed roll. Not a big penalty but it does give the sword the edge. :wink:

How about a couple of sword specific combat maneuvers?

HALF SWORDING
By grabbing half way up the blade of your sword with the off hand you shorten your effective range but can deliver a powerful blow aimed at punching right through your opponents armour.
Prerequiste: Proficieny with the sword being used.
Circumstance: Using a 1 or 2 handed sword capable of thrusting damage. Not using a shield or carrying anything in your off hand
Effect: by taking -1 on your attack roll you may add d4-1 to the AP of the sword. Not usable with finesse. Has to be a piercing attack. Can be used multiple times per round. You can't gain extra attacks due to any feats, cleave, whirlwind attack etc.

GRAPPLING PARRY
Stepping into your opponents attack you trap his arm and weapon with your parrying blade.
Prerequiste: Weapon focus with the sword being used. Base attack +4.
Circumstance Using a 1 or 2 handed sword. Not using a shield or carrying anything in your off hand.
Effect: Your attacker gains a +4 bonus to his attack roll, but if he misses you are treated as having made a touch attack to begin a grapple without having to make the roll. Now proceed to step 3 of "starting a grapple" as outlined on page 180. If you do not win the opposed grapple check your opponent can continue with his turn as per normal, move, continue attacking etc. You don not need to let go of your sword to do this grapple.
If you also have improved grapple you can use this maneuver unarmed or with a dagger.


These were very legitimate fighting techniques when using swords with halfswording being about the only way a sword user could hope to hurt an opponent in full harness. Halfswording doesn't always work so it's a little bit of a gamble. The -1 to hit is to reflect the shorter reach of the weapon.
The grappling parry is based on the cats parry but could be very useful in certain circumstances, maybe against someone with a polearm who would probably need to drop their weapon to fight back.

What do people think?

 

[Yokiboy]

Hi Azza,

When it comes to sundering I will at least leave it as is until I've played the game for a while. I still haven't even tried it yet, but it will happen Saturday!

Half Swording, how does that really work? I'm guessing you cannot do the maneuver if you have a double edged sword, otherwise you'll cut up your own hand. IMC I intend to cover this by the increased Str when making two-handed attacks, no matter how you hold your sword. Remember that your Str mod counts as 1 1/2 when using a two-handed grip. The maneuver seems sort of unecessary, as the mechanic already exist.

Grappling Parry I'm unsure about. I don't really understand if you transition from a sword fight into a grapple completely, but you must if you win that oppossed grapple roll, right? Does the maneuver only cost you one AOO? I always like melee turning into grapples, but is this really that easy to do with a regular sword? Seems a sai or some similar grappling weapon would be necessary... :?

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Johannixx]

Yokiboy: Half-swording actually was a period fighting technique. Most European swords weren't razor-sharp, but rather had a good utility edge. If you were wearing gauntlets, which generally lined the palms in good stout leather gloves, you could half-sword fairly easily. You just have to avoid running your hand up and down the edge. Simply grip it firmly and stab. This was often used to 'shorten' a longer sword for close-in fighting, or to give more leverage for parrying the thrusts of a spear.

 

[Yokiboy]

Yokiboy: Half-swording actually was a period fighting technique. Most European swords weren't razor-sharp, but rather had a good utility edge. If you were wearing gauntlets, which generally lined the palms in good stout leather gloves, you could half-sword fairly easily. You just have to avoid running your hand up and down the edge. Simply grip it firmly and stab. This was often used to 'shorten' a longer sword for close-in fighting, or to give more leverage for parrying the thrusts of a spear.

Okay, thanks for the background info. Do you think that my suggestion that the 2-handed grip rules already cover this nicely, or do you like the maneuver?

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Johannixx]

Personally, I would just keep the standard two-hands-on-your-weapon damage bonus and leave it at that. d20 doesn't take into account the smaller reach differences between a shortsword and a greatsword, so there is no real rules application for this technique. If the greatsword was a reach weapon, then I would allow halbschwert technique to allow you to 'choke up' and use it as an adjacent weapon, with a penalty to damage (drop it down to 2d6, probably) and a no-Slashing limitation.

Then again, if I had my druthers, I'd have separate stats for Piercing and Slashing modes with swords. Slashing would do more damage, but Piercing would have better AP values

 

[Yokiboy]

Personally, I would just keep the standard two-hands-on-your-weapon damage bonus and leave it at that.

I agree, this is how I will treat it, although I might use what I've learned here regarding Half-Swording to describe the action every now and then. So no new maneuver for me.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Orkin]

Nope. I got all ten fingers still, and I've tried this with my own broadsword, sharp enough to cut a sheet of paper. Nothing to it. Just don't slide your hand... :roll:

 

[Yokiboy]

Nope. I got all ten fingers still, and I've tried this with my own broadsword, sharp enough to cut a sheet of paper. Nothing to it. Just don't slide your hand... :roll:

But did you actually hit anything with the sword? I fail to see how you wouldn't accidentally slide your hand even a tad if you rammed a sword into an armor wearing opponent? :shock:

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Orkin]

The left hand is used merely to guide the sword, the right provides the power.

At the worst, it's like, "I got scratch on my hand, you got a scratch on your spleen!

There are also documented techniques for grabbing the other guy's sword - that's when his sword is stopped momentarily, say at crossed swords need I say. :roll:

By the way, I like the way this game community is developing, a lot more interest in doing it realistically.

 

[AZZA]

Does the maneuver only cost you one AOO? I always like melee turning into grapples, but is this really that easy to do with a regular sword? Seems a sai or some similar grappling weapon would be necessary

Real easy. One of the first things they used to teach at fencing schools was how to grapple. You can even do it using a buckler in your off hand. you twist you opponent up a bit neutralising his weapon and cna strike with you off hand, pommel, throw, disarm etc. No attack of opportunity against you. I think the +4 to you opponents chance to hit is enough of a risk. I've done some boadsword/arming sword and longsword training and can testify to its effectiveness.

IMC I intend to cover this by the increased Str when making two-handed attacks, no matter how you hold your sword. Remember that your Str mod counts as 1 1/2 when using a two-handed grip. The maneuver seems sort of unecessary, as the mechanic already exist.

Sure it increase the damage but not the AP which puts The exotic weapon two handed sword behind the martial weapon Bardiche in its battlefield effectiveness, not to mention you can buy 25 Bardiches for the cost of one two handed sword!. There is no rules for the difference in lengths in d20 but in Conan there is for AP and DR, and this is was one of the main benfits of using half swording.

I agree, this is how I will treat it, although I might use what I've learned here regarding Half-Swording to describe the action every now and then. So no new maneuver for me

Fair enough too!!
I was looking for a couple of ways to make swords more versatile without changing their game stats!

Yokiboy..If you like the idea of using half-swording to describe the action to you players I should tell you about another variant of the technique, the murder stoke. You finding it hard to believe you put one hand on the blade how about both on the blade and swinging the cross guard at your opponent war hammer style!! :lol: this is no joke and is an illustrated technique in one of Talhoffer, a german swordsmaster, books.

Aaron

 

[Yokiboy]

IMC I intend to cover this by the increased Str when making two-handed attacks, no matter how you hold your sword. Remember that your Str mod counts as 1 1/2 when using a two-handed grip. The maneuver seems sort of unecessary, as the mechanic already exist.

Sure it increase the damage but not the AP which puts The exotic weapon two handed sword behind the martial weapon Bardiche in its battlefield effectiveness, not to mention you can buy 25 Bardiches for the cost of one two handed sword!. There is no rules for the difference in lengths in d20 but in Conan there is for AP and DR, and this is was one of the main benfits of using half swording.

Hi Aaron,

Actually, it does increase the AP, as you always add your Str mod to AP before comparing it to your opponent's DR. So the way I see it the maneuver is already covered by the RAW.

I am contemplating adding AP +2 to the list of benefits of charges IMC, which goes in line with the +2 bonus to Bull Rush and Overrun Str Checks.

I might even allow another form of Half Swording, such as having the maneuver make it impossible to Parry as you're holding your weapon differently. You would still have your Dodge defense to fall back on though. I would also give it a flat AP bonus, rather than using a roll (tendency to slow down the game).

Half Swording would help dissuade people from disengaging combat to charge in again to get that AP bonus back.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Johannixx]

Actually, you get your Str mod to AP, regardless of how many hands you have on the weapon. If you're using a two-handed weapon, you don't get 1.5x your Str mod to AP, just to damage. At least, that's how I read the rules.

A great pictorial example of half-swording technique can be found in "Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship", which is Christian Henry Tobler's translation and interpretation of Johannes Liechtenauer's medieval techniques as set down by Sigmund Ringeck in the 15th Century. Chapters 37 and 38 deal exclusively with the applications and technique of half-swording, while Chapter 39 deals with "Schlachenden Ort", the 'battering point', also known as the murder stroke. Here is an image from their website preview page:

Half-swording is generally used as way to utilize a longsword (bastard sword or light two-hander in D&D terminology) in close quarters, and to gain more leverage when parrying.

Additionally, half-swording should be restricted, probably to just Nemedian and Aquilonian characters. This style of combat stressed plate armor when available, and was generally taught to those wealthy enough to afford it, i.e. nobility and the miles. It's not something a barbarian or pirate would have picked up in his travels, but rather part of a complete fighting system developed over centuries of armored combat experience. Thus, I'd make it conditional on having fewer than 7 levels of Barbarian, as are Weapon Focus and other feats.

 

[Yokiboy]

Actually, you get your Str mod to AP, regardless of how many hands you have on the weapon. If you're using a two-handed weapon, you don't get 1.5x your Str mod to AP, just to damage. At least, that's how I read the rules.

I know that you always add your Str mod to AP, but why would you not modify this by your grip Johannixx? Why would the way you grip a weapon only modify your Str mod for damage, but not AP? I just think it makes sense.

Off-Hand grip = ½ Str mod
Two-Hand grip = 1 ½ Str mod, unless light weapon

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Johannixx]

It's already kind of built-in to the AP values of the weapons. Otherwise, all swords would have one AP value, as would all axes, hammers, etc.

 

[Yokiboy]

It's already kind of built-in to the AP values of the weapons. Otherwise, all swords would have one AP value, as would all axes, hammers, etc.

And what about all the weapons that allow either a one- or two-handed grip? I am not saying that it's this way in the rules, but IMC it will be.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[AZZA]

I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that it is only straight ST bonus. But whether you add 1&1/2 or just your ST bonus when using the weapon 2 handed weapons the two handed sword still comes out behind the bardiche. That was the main reason for the halfswording. I can see how rolling the die might slow things down a little ut as its only a small attack penalty I liked the idea of the character taking a chance sacraficing the 1 point and maybe getting enough to beat his opponents armour. If you make the penalty any higher their is no point to the move as power attack will probably do the job for you.
Great picture Johannixx!!
I realise that the maneuver as written doesn't completely capture the essense of half swording but thought it could add an option that might be of interest to a sword wielding character!

 

[Johannixx]

One possible option is to allow Finesse attacks with the greatsword when half-swording. I really don't know the best way to translate it into Conan d20 terms, though I did write a basic D&D PrC based on the Liechtenauer style.

 

[Anonymous]

Don't forget, the Greatsword has ONE advantage over the Bardiche. The ever present Pommel. Sure, it isn't much, but every now and then, a trusty rap with a steel spheroid is needed.

Also, and this derails the post-train a little, but does anyone think upping the Cutlass' Pommel damage 1 die is fair? After all, you always see people banging the crap out of each other more often with basket/cup/swept hilts than with standard crossguard, simply because there is more metal!! Doesn't hurt things much, I think.

 

[Johannixx]

Also, and this derails the post-train a little, but does anyone think upping the Cutlass' Pommel damage 1 die is fair? After all, you always see people banging the crap out of each other more often with basket/cup/swept hilts than with standard crossguard, simply because there is more metal!! Doesn't hurt things much, I think.

The basket hilts generally weren't very sturdy or pointy, i.e. they gave a little when hitting someone. Plus, it provides much more surface area to spread the impact, rather than a pommel or point of a quillion.