Too Powerful or Too Weak?

[Taran]

I was just thinking about an ACTA based design for some ships and was curious about your thoughts...


Heavy Bomber
Raid PL

Speed: 12 Dam: 5 Craft: 1 Flight Stryke Class Heavy Fighters
Turn: 2/45 Crew: 5 Traits: Stealth 3+, Dodge 5+, AF2, Int 1, Jump Engine, Shields 2/1, Agile, Flight Computer, Atmospheric
Hull: 5 Troop:1

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Mass Cannon 10 F 4 SAP, QD, OS, P
Disruptors 15 F 6 Accurate, TL


Stryke Class Heavy Fighter
Wing of 2 Flights

Speed: 14 Dogfight +1
Hull: 6 Special: Shields1/1, AF1, Dodge 3+, Atmospheric

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Quad Blasters 2 T 1 Accurate, Weak, TL
Ion Cannon 4 T 1 On hit does no damage, instead on 6+ disables 1 random trait
Heavy Laser Cannon 2 T 1 DD, AP


The idea is that the entire fleet is heavy on defense, but if you break through those defenses... BOOM.
On the attack, It's about the Ion Cannons carried by several ships, but mostly by the fighters, and the Mass Cannons, which are basically Mass Drivers made for ship to ship use.

 

[Digger]

First thoughts - Too powerful - Everyone would use them and they would then fall into disrepute as they are banned from tourney's!

Cut back on the guns and give them a serious weakness otherwise they will end up like the Gaim!

Like the concept though!

 

[McKickaha]

Agree with Digger's comments'

Like the idea of the mass cannon a lot. Could see it as being a good low tech weapon for race like the Hurr, Grome or even a Raider weapon, .... nasty suprise for a attacking cap ship.

Do see it as slow loading, maybe even 1 shot.

Does your "P" mean precise if so don't agree with that I see it as more a shotgun type "scatter" weapon.

 

[AdrianH]

The heavy bomber is well armed but fragile - damage 5! It has poorer shields and stealth than a Shadow Scout and that has damage 25. It might be interesting to play this and see whether it really is overpowered or just good for a really short, brutal game - lots of ships getting destroyed after one or two salvoes.

A cannon that size in a ship that small is going to cause recoil. When it fires, immediately move ths ship 6" backwards. If that sends it into an asteroid field, it takes the usual 6AD SAP TD with no CQ check to avoid it. For additional amusement, if the move puts the ship into contact with another ship, friend or foe, then apply an immediate ramming attack.

The "Precise" trait is reasonable even if the word is not. The effect is that it can't be stopped by a bulkhead hit and is more likely to hit something critical. A usual Precise weapon does that by superior aiming; the mass cannon does it by hitting a large area. Think of a normal precise beam as looking for something interesting and poking it with a needle. Then think of the mass cannon as hitting the ship with a very big hammer.

In appearance the ship should look like a self-propelled cannon. Basically a big gun with some engines and a small control section tacked on. If you've ever seen the old game Star Control 2, think Druuge. If not, look at this.

The fighter is seriously scary. Hull 6 and shields and dogfight +1 - in other words, tougher than a Shadow fighter with most of the weaknesses removed. On top of all that, it has antifighter as well! That's what's going to get this fleet thrown out of games, not the capital ship. Drop the Hull to 6 and lose either the shields or antifighter. Or make it a big fighter, drop the speed to at most 10, drop the Dogfight to -1 and change the Dodge to 5+.

 

[McKickaha]

See your point on precise trait AdrianH, however range is a factor. Consider a sawn off shotgun, at short range delivers a devastating sledgehammer, longer range as effective as a hailstorm.

 

[Foxmeister]

Ok, the heavy bomber has very low damage/crew scores, but on the other hand it has practically every active defence going.

First of all, you've got to break Stealth - ok, Stealth 3 is low, but given its speed, it can be at effective Stealth 4 at 22" and then move in to Mass Cannon range.

Even if you break Stealth, you've got to contend with Dodge, Anti-fighter, Interceptors, and finally Shields before you can start whittling down the damage/crew tracks. That's an awful lot of defences to get past, and it's almost certainly going to be on CBD permanently!

As a concept, I kinda like it, but I think at the very least the range of the Mass Cannon should be reduced to no more than 6", and it should probably be boresight too.

All that being said, its worst enemy is going to be the Dag'Kar, which is pretty much guaranteed to get a kill every time it fires on one!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Digger]

I agree with the comments about precise, not a problem!

As already mentioned its the speed, range plus everything else in the way of defensive capability that screws it up.

Also, the damage capability is way to high.

In SFB, the Gorn use to have a ship of similar design, ship built round a BFG - But it was a very slow loading and then had to run away once it had shot its bolt - this craft does not, it can hang in there and fight.

Yes, IF you manage to get through the defenses, it will pop easily, but its getting through the damn defenses that will be the hard part! :x

The fighter is just sick and would be banned from any of our games as a house rule!

 

[AdrianH]

Other races have defences too. Interceptors will stop most of that mass cannon, as will Abbai or Shadow shields. Minbari will laugh at a mere stealth 3+, especially if they have a Leshath around, and they'll also laugh at interceptors.

Also, since this is probably a fleet battle with more than one point Raid, the interceptors and shields are probably exhausted after the first attack, and the second ship to break the bomber's shields will probably kill it.

I'd be interested in fighting against the bomber, but only if the fighter is seriously toned down or removed.

 

[Foxmeister]

Interceptors will stop most of that mass cannon, as will Abbai or Shadow shields.

Who's going to be firing their one shot mass cannon at a target where the shields are still up, or the interceptors haven't been depleted?

Regards,

Dave

 

[Taran]

The Mass Cannon is 1 shot (OS). P is Precise. Because it's a HUGE shotgun SLUG, not scattershot. Basically firing a ship-size round into the target. Buckshot would be much shorter range, More dice, and not Quad Damage and certainly not Precise.
The idea is that, yes, it's going to blow a giant hole right into your ship and do criticals just from massive trauma. A battle-axe instead of a rapier.


CBD would be good for it...
Until it fired its Mass Cannon. Then CBD makes it completely unarmed (only 1 weapon system).

I see the point about the Number of defenses, but that's actually the point. It's a small ship. A Very small ship. With damage comparable to most Patrol ships. Well, not even then. The Tethys is a twofer and has more damage...
This ship's entire purpose is to get the fighters to the battle and fire its main gun. 6 AD of Accurate, TL isn't really dangerous to much, even at Raid.


I understand the comments on the fighters...
But...
Comparing it to the Shadow fighters? It's supposed to be mean, not pathetic. I was going more for comparable to the Vorlon fighter. Sure, it's tougher than the Vorlon, lots tougher, but it's also not packing a Precise Beam at 3 inch range.
I could certainly see dropping it to hull 5 and dropping the Dogfight to 0 but much more than that and I'd be upping its flights per win to keep it comparable with most fleets.

 

[Da Boss]

the fighter is just too good - it has no weaknesses I am afraid

it has three weapons which is alot, one of which can remove traits - which can be death to some races.
Not only is it a reasonabel dogfighter but it has antifighter and shields.

A flight of 3 or 4 without most of the defences, reduced speed (10), (keep AF1) and the Ion cannon as its only weapon could be a interesting fighter. But allow it to disable trait for a turn.

Have a escort fighter variant with the accurate guns and hull 5 and speed 12

 

[Taran]

Actually, the disabling trait thing was initially meant to be for just a turn. Then I thought that I remembered that those could be repaired. I was wrong, wasn't I? Oh and it still needs 2 rolls to disable anything. 1 to hit and 1 to disable. Has no AP or SAP.

Drop it to Hull 5, drop it's speed to 12 (to match its carrier), drop the Accurate, Weak gun (because it's real purpose is the AF role), and drop the dogfight. I think I would up the Laser Cannon's dice, though. Better?

Stryke Class Heavy Fighter
Wing of 2 Flights

Speed: 12 Dogfight +0
Hull: 5 Special: Shields1/1, AF1, Dodge 3+, Atmospheric

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Ion Cannon 4 T 1 On hit does no damage, instead on 6+ disables 1 random trait
Heavy Laser Cannon 2 T 2 DD, AP

 

[Greg Smith]

CBD would be good for it...
Until it fired its Mass Cannon. Then CBD makes it completely unarmed (only 1 weapon system).

Nope. A one-shot weapon is still a weapon, just one that can't fire. It can still be affected by criticals, and still counts for CBD.

So after it had fired its Mass cannon, it could be on CBD every single turn, for no ill effect at all.

 

[Taran]

Wow. When did they make that ruling?
We were playing it differently at Mavencon last year (yeah, I've been out of it for awhile)...

 

[Greg Smith]

Did it need to be ruled?

The rules say:

One-Shot: Ammunition or payload is limited for this weapon and so once used in an attack, it may not be used again for the rest of the game.

It does not say it ceases to become a weapon.

 

[katadder]

i would actually be against that and say that you cant be on CBD with a one shot weapon once its fired. its one shot so if it has no ammunition is no longer viable, plus you get the brokenness of as you say having one weapon and being on permanent CBD.

 

[Democratus]

Agreed. In fact, we go so far as to say that Slow Loading weapons don't help on the turns they are unable to fire.

Otherwise you could also argue that weapons taken out by a "Weapons Offline" critical still count because they may no longer be able to fire, but they are still weapons.

The "still weapons" thing doesn't really hold water.

 

[Foxmeister]

The "still weapons" thing doesn't really hold water.

According to the rules as written, I'm afraid it does in my opinion. It's well known that SL weapons do count for these purposes, because this is one of the major criticisms levelled at the Demos. By extension of that reasoning, a weapon that can't fire because it has been taken out by a critical will still count, because potentially it can be repaired.

That being said, I fully agree that it shouldn't, I just don't see anything in the rules to support that.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Democratus]

The "still weapons" thing doesn't really hold water.

According to the rules as written, I'm afraid it does in my opinion. It's well known that SL weapons do count for these purposes, because this is one of the major criticisms levelled at the Demos.

What criticism do you mean? Around here, at least, the Demos can't fire its Ion Cannon on CBD while the Torpedoes are offline. Likewise, it can't use the torpedoes to contribute to the Hunting Pack if they are unable to fire.

By extension of that reasoning, a weapon that can't fire because it has been taken out by a critical will still count, because potentially it can be repaired.

But this doesn't logically extend, because the Demos doesn't behave like that when the rules are interpreted thusly.

That being said, I fully agree that it shouldn't, I just don't see anything in the rules to support that.

All rules are interpreted the moment you read them from the book. Like law, rules are subject to the "reasonable person" filter on how to utilize them. It's not violating the rules to interpret them in a reasonable fashion. In fact slavish obedience to grammar is a path to madness, since it means the game is in effect unplayable.

 

[Foxmeister]

What criticism do you mean? Around here, at least, the Demos can't fire its Ion Cannon on CBD while the Torpedoes are offline. Likewise, it can't use the torpedoes to contribute to the Hunting Pack if they are unable to fire.

"Around here" clearly equates to house rule. I'm talking about the rules as written - house rules are a completely different kettle of fish.

But this doesn't logically extend, because the Demos doesn't behave like that when the rules are interpreted thusly.

See first point.

All rules are interpreted the moment you read them from the book. Like law, rules are subject to the "reasonable person" filter on how to utilize them. It's not violating the rules to interpret them in a reasonable fashion. In fact slavish obedience to grammar is a path to madness, since it means the game is in effect unplayable.

Playing devils advocate here, because as I said before in general I agree in principle with your house rule, but who is to say that your interpretation is any more or less valid than any other? The point is, when there is a disagreement, you must go back to the original source material to seek clarity and at no point does the rule book ever say that a O/S weapon system ceases to be a weapon system. It just says that "it may not be used for the rest of the game" - which is also a clear implication that it still has a valid existence.

Any other approach makes the game unplayable between two disparate gaming groups, because what constitutes "reasonable" for one, may not be reasonable for another!

However, that being said, we are discussing an unofficial ship - I can't think of a single official ship in ACTA that has two weapon systems, one of which is one shot, so the discussion is probably moot! (unless such a ship does exist of course!)

As an aside, CBD is a very poor rule in the first place!

Regards,

Dave