Time Limit to Traveller License?
- Thread starter BenTOGS
- Start date
aspqrz said:
The hate that TNE generated was immense. It was also extremely overblown, unnecessarily emotional, and full of ridiculous hyperbole and melodramat, and one would have thought that GDW had done the equivalent of going to Rome and ripping up a picture of the pope on live TV.
To this day I don't know why the TNE haters did not do what other gamers usually do in such a situation and just ignore what they didn't like and do their own thing instead, or just carry on playing the old versions that they liked. That would have been a much more mature response, in my opinion.
I would not point at the major post-TNE editions and claim that they are not set in that era because the setting of TNE was inherently flawed. It always amuses me that people can accept other "ridiculous" ideas like FTL and artificial gravity and god-like aliens spreading humans across nearby space, but for some reason an intelligent silicon lifeform rewriting computer hardware gets stuck in the craw. Personally I don't think it's more of a leap than anything else in the setting - perhaps their mistake was in attempting to explain how it worked. Dave Nilsen explained all the reasons why they made their decisions about TNE's direction here.
But after all the temper tantrums and drama, I suspect that the reason that no publisher wanted to attempt to make any significant changes to the OTU after that was to avoid generating such a reaction again, and as a result we have been stuck with revamps of the 3I setting since then, with people being sold books that contain pretty much the same material over and over again. This is why I think that the OTU has almost completely stagnated.
Avenger were the only company who had the balls to move things forward with their excellent 1248 setting, and they don't get anywhere near as much credit as they should for doing that. I think it is sad that one of the "little guys" could get away with doing that (or maybe they just weren't noticed, or maybe the "damage" had already been done by TNE so people did not care as much anymore) while the big publishers could not.
Blix, handwavium is the waving of something that is postulated but we lack the FUTURE knowledge to explain.
Saying that radio waves (of today) cause silicone chips (of today) to come to life isn't in that category.
Another possible example for FTL travel: Shining a TL 7 flashlight on the heating elements of a TL 7 toaster causes a rift in the fabric of space enabling your ship to jump X parsecs.
See?
Saying that radio waves (of today) cause silicone chips (of today) to come to life isn't in that category.
Another possible example for FTL travel: Shining a TL 7 flashlight on the heating elements of a TL 7 toaster causes a rift in the fabric of space enabling your ship to jump X parsecs.
See?
DFW said:
As Nilsen said, Virus was a tool to sweep away the setting that had already been largely destroyed by the Rebellion - as such, I don't really care about the mechanisms of it worked myself. As I said, maybe their mistake was to try to explain how Virus worked in the first place - just forget about all that, call it "technology so advanced that we don't understand it at all", and leave it at that.
I don't think that how Virus worked was really the problem though - I think it was more that people couldn't stand seeing "their" (already destroyed) Imperium being swept away.
DFW said:
Hmm, need to try that with MY toaster... though I'd better have my TL8 vacc suit ready first.
DFW hit the nail on the head though - gravitics and jumpspace technology are "future magic" that rely on maths and physics we don't have yet, so players could believe that things might work that way, and thus don't "feel" like fantasy, even if they are.
In computer games we call that verisimilitude - as long as it feels plausible or correct, then it's correct enough for the general audience. Internal consistency is hugely important too. You're not likely to please a PhD in your subject with a game anyway since all games are forced to make compromises against reality for playability. (True of both electronic and pen&paper games, though of course for different reasons.)
(Though as a counterpoint, it drives me nuts when game makers throw a trivial connection to reality out the window because "hey, who will know?" That may be my "gear head" reflex kicking in, but I do prefer that games only depart from the realistic when there is a reason, even if the reason is "style". It's all down to internal consistency, and the universe is relatively internally consistent, Goedel's theorem notwithstanding.)
hdan said:
I would point out that we also don't have ubiquitous lobotomised silicon-based lifeforms that are directly integrated into our computers' circuitry yet, and we have no understanding of how they'd work either
. Either way, whether it's just "magic" or "future magic", it's still magic. Where one draws the line at acceptable or not is very much a matter of opinion. I think all we really need to know about Virus is that it can infect any computer, and take it over and cause it to do dangerous (or different) things, and can evolve over time. I do not think that the exact mechanism of how it does that is really that important, any more than knowing the exact mechanism of how jump works (which again, is "magic").
Again, in a game where FTL takes a week to get anywhere regardless of distance travelled, godlike aliens kidnap humans and transplant them to alien worlds where they are somehow able to survive with no technology, where billions of people live on acidic hellholes but not on garden worlds, and where psychic shockwaves blast from the galactic core, I don't think a sentient computer virus is a hard thing to swallow.
Blix said:I would point out that we also don't have ubiquitous lobotomised silicon-based lifeforms that are directly integrated into our computers' circuitry yet, and we have no understanding of how they'd work either
Correct. And neither did the star ship computers in Traveller. Hence, fantasy as opposed to sci-fi.
For those that actually understand computers & software, it is vital.
DFW said:
Why not just accept that it's "fantasy" then, like everything else? We don't have jump drive today, but I doubt that every gamer who knows physics thinks it's "vital" to understand how FTL works in a fictional setting in order to enjoy the game. If the "fantasy" is too much, then the solution is to just not play the game (or change that part to something else that is more acceptable in one's own games).
"Fantasy" and "scifi" are just labels; what matters is what is in the game. If people find the game enjoyable, they should play it and enjoy it. If they don't (and are not willing or able to change the game into something that they can enjoy), they should play something else that they enjoy instead.
Blix said:
But, we do have computers and radio transmissions of the type Traveller has that are used in the example of the virus. See, toaster analogy above for difference between Fantasy & sci-fi genres. They aren't "simply labels" without distinction" They actually have different meanings. That answers all your questions. If you have different Qs that haven't already been answered I'll respond...
DFW said:
The question is "can people get over how some armwavy magical thing in the future works"? Some people can get past that, others get hung up on details and cannot. That's fine, it isn't going to appeal to everybody.
We have nothing like Virus today, and as described it probably is physically unrealistic - but I don't think that matters. What matters IMO is its purpose within the setting, which is to (a) sweep aside the remnants of the imperium, (b) cause a technological collapse that sends many worlds into pre-technological societies, and (c) introduce a new AI enemy (or potential ally, if the Virus has evolved to be smart enough) to the game, and it does all that admirably.
Historically speaking, it's a "Doomsday Weapon" that got out of control.
Personally, I couldn't really care less about the hows and whys and details of how Virus works, and I have seen much in the OTU that makes less sense than Virus. As far as I am concerned, it fulfils the purpose for which it was written (by the game authors) and gives us a new start.
You clearly can't accept how Virus works and that is fair enough, but there's no "right or wrong" about this, it's just about where people draw the line of believability and that is different for everybody.
DFW said:
I guess you missed all the flamewars that happened at the time that TNE was released.
From what I recall, most of the angry voices on the various mailing lists were from people complaining that "their" Imperium was gone, and that somehow their own games had been "invalidated" by GDW (which is patently nonsense).
Sure, there were also complaints about how Virus was unrealistic, and I'm sure that some people could accept the loss of the Imperium but not how virus worked, but that seemed more like a secondary issue and just provided more ammunition for the people who didn't like the idea of getting rid of the Imperium to start with.
Blix said:
I know my groups did. We were all too busy playing TNE and other games to participate in the flame wars. Heck, I didn't even know TNE was "universally" despised until years after it and GDW were gone. Ok, I partly jest.
While the internet and web certainly existed back then, it's important to keep in mind that it was a pretty small subset of the population that was actively participating online when TNE was first released. I've always been one of the most active of my friends/family in participating online, and frankly, with the slower internet connections, and less time to just browse online (and having to pay for the time spent online), participating in discussions about how bad/good a game rule set wasn't a top priority - I was much more likley to just be searching for resources to play my games with and make them better. I was peripherally aware that some people were upset about TNE, but at the time I pretty much ignored them, because my groups and I liked it. It wasn't until years later I discovered the heated depth of those flamewars.
Which leads me to beleive it was a very vocal minority in the grand scheme of things.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Blix said:kristof65 said:
I doubt that things have changed that much since then really
Well, okay. So, to sum up your point: a long time ago, on a fairly exclusive communications sytem, a few people got in a flamewar about TNE. Almost noone noticed or cared. Can I quote you on that ? 8)
Glad we all admit it's likely of trivial relevence to discussion now. :wink:
Me, I'm looking for a star siege review.
You could try this one Captain Jack if you haven't seen it already.
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13973.phtml
Anyway on the whole Rebellion/TNE thing, I kinda liked MT, but then again I never tried to build a vehicle with it and as other posters have said the level of errata and editing were shocking, have you seen how many pages Don Mckinney's consolidated MT errata runs to?
I didn't like the Rebellion at first but it kind of grew on me, at first I was annoyed at the whole Virus thing, but we ran with it converting the characters from my MT campaign into TNE characters and having them having to make a very long journey from a misjump frozen and them being awoken in the TNE era.
We played it pretty straight 3I in the Regency so it didn't differ to much from standard Traveller.
Personally I think MJD did a pretty good job of wrapping up the whole Rebellion/Virus era in his 1248 stuff. I wouldn't mind running a game set in that period if I could get the books in print rather than PDF. I hope Mongoose produce a 1248 book.
As for how the Virus works it doesn't really bother me, my games are pretty much action/adventure stories, I treat it like Jump Drive, Gravitics and Psionics, its part of the window dressing.
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13973.phtml
Anyway on the whole Rebellion/TNE thing, I kinda liked MT, but then again I never tried to build a vehicle with it and as other posters have said the level of errata and editing were shocking, have you seen how many pages Don Mckinney's consolidated MT errata runs to?
I didn't like the Rebellion at first but it kind of grew on me, at first I was annoyed at the whole Virus thing, but we ran with it converting the characters from my MT campaign into TNE characters and having them having to make a very long journey from a misjump frozen and them being awoken in the TNE era.
We played it pretty straight 3I in the Regency so it didn't differ to much from standard Traveller.
Personally I think MJD did a pretty good job of wrapping up the whole Rebellion/Virus era in his 1248 stuff. I wouldn't mind running a game set in that period if I could get the books in print rather than PDF. I hope Mongoose produce a 1248 book.
As for how the Virus works it doesn't really bother me, my games are pretty much action/adventure stories, I treat it like Jump Drive, Gravitics and Psionics, its part of the window dressing.
Similar threads
