Time Limit to Traveller License?

[Blix]

That rule seemed to hold true until D&D 4. Of the 40 or so players I know around the world, only 2 stayed with D&D 4. The rest, after years of playing skipped 4 and went with various OGL substitutes...

Whereas all the D&D players I know (myself included) adopted with D&D 4e and dropped 3.5 like a hot brick. Personally I think 4e is vastly superior in every way to 3.5, and I know that I have no desire to ever look at 3.x-based material again; looking back on it I wonder how I even managed to play with such an over-complicated system.

A change in edition is bound to lose some old fans and make some new fans.

 

[DFW]

Whereas all the D&D players I know (myself included) adopted with D&D 4e and dropped 3.5 like a hot brick. Personally I think 4e is vastly superior in every way to 3.5,

The best reason for you to switch

 

[rinku]

The fan base for Traveller seems much different though. New editions aren't really spat upon by the majority, nor old editions entirely abandoned. It helps that it's been licensed out to multiple publishers at the same time, so we get a broad choice of what system to play, and other systems to mine material from.

Probably the main reason is that despite changing specific game mechanics like combat, no edition of Traveller has really changed the original core concepts. You have characteristics, you have skills, you have tasks. There are planets, and you travel by jump drive between them. Ships fight in space, people shoot at each other, you trade stuff.

D&D has always suffered a bit from "this seems cool, let's bolt it on", while Traveller (especially in the core GDW era) was more cautious. Having a stable group of designers who actually worked as a team from 1977 to 1996 helped a great deal, I'm sure; TSR over that period went through much intra-company strife. IMHO also, GDW simply had better game designers; they demonstated this by the quality and volume of their productions.

Or maybe, just maybe, we've always been a bit more mature as a group? I'm not saying Traveller players don't have combat happy beserkers... but they don't get a direct game reward for killing everything in sight, nor become rapidly even better at killing stuff by doing so. The main direct reward for play in Trav is cash; the main form of self-improvement is stuff. D&D has novices who improve through play to be experts; in Traveller this is all done before play starts.

 

[aspqrz]

I wonder if anyone has actually realised this on the publisher's side? Or realised the possible and likely consequences?

Or maybe they planned it that way...

Corporate beancounters? Whom, by all accounts I recall had had to sign off on the idea?

*Lack* of vision, yes.

Seeing the consequences of their actions?

Don't think so, not on available (GFC et al) evidence!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Phil

 

[aspqrz]

In effect, any SRD based game has become immortal.

I wonder if anyone has actually realised this on the publisher's side? Or realised the possible and likely consequences?

We've pretty much seen the entire OGL cycle play itself out over the past 10 years.

New Base Game -> Variant Support Material -> Spin Off Games -> New Base Game

The same thing happened to the Fudge system (who's New Base Game is the Fate system) and the same thing will happen with Pathfinder eventually. The new base Pathfinder game maybe Pathfinder 2E (most likely) or something else should Paizo go under or abandon the current basics of the game (highly unlikely in the near future).

The same can (and probably will) happen to Traveller. I mean JBE is already making variant support material. If we get a (wild example) Space: Above and Beyond license, we'd probably release a book with system and setting in one. By the time the Traveller license has expired (and if Mongoose decides to go a different direction then the Traveller OGL system), we might try our hands at creating our own Traveller variant system.

But we have plenty of years before giving serious consideration to an option like that. Still, it is possible.

Indeed, but the thing is, and what I was trying to say was, that the SRD governing the base game makes it possible and, I believe (for whatever *that* is worth :wink: ) that anyone who cares to can simply replicate the "base game" for their own purposes with little effort.

If you don't like DnD 4e (I don't - b****y video game knockoff ... but, then, I didn't upgrade from 3.0 to 3.5 like a good little mindless consumer, either :wink: ... YMMV!!!) or Pathfinder (which I am actually somewhat partial to because it is incremental and non-video-gamish ) :lol: you can use the SRD plus PoD technology plus DTP software and create, effectively, your own "Group/House Rules" that are actually "in print" (for some definitions of "in print") ...

Of course, in a real sense, that's exactly what Paizo have done with Pathfinder, and its exactly what a number of others have done with various SRD knock offs.

But a marked up and expanded copy of the SRD (including writer-created versions of the bits left out) is now very possible and, given the somewhat (seeming) immortal nature of the Internet, increasingly likely.

I would agree that it is not likely that such efforts will *necessarily* threaten DnD, Pathfinder, or Traveller's publishers (whomever they may be in the future), but they *will* be around ... in effect, the democratisation of the print and game publishing process :shock: :wink:

Phil

 

[aspqrz]

-you're not entirely happy with your current game and the new game fixes those areas you're not happy with

Which is perfect breeding ground for an SRD/PoD/DTP kludge ... and, while most of those will be ... let's be polite ... marginal ... some will, inevitably, in a Darwinian fashion, go on to bigger and better things.

But does this cut into a limited DnD market or expand an overall RPG market.

Evidently DnD's corporate masters of the moment believe the former, hence no OGL for 4e, but I'd guess many publishers believed (and still do!) the latter!

YMMV of course! :wink:

Phil

 

[Blix]

The fan base for Traveller seems much different though. New editions aren't really spat upon by the majority, nor old editions entirely abandoned. It helps that it's been licensed out to multiple publishers at the same time, so we get a broad choice of what system to play, and other systems to mine material from.

MT and TNE were spat on a lot by people who at the time claimed to be the majority. TNE still gets a lot of hate in some quarters.

Probably the main reason is that despite changing specific game mechanics like combat, no edition of Traveller has really changed the original core concepts.

Apart from TNE, which swept most of the Imperium away (for good reasons, in my opinion).

D&D has always suffered a bit from "this seems cool, let's bolt it on", while Traveller (especially in the core GDW era) was more cautious.

I would say that this is why Traveller has stagnated over the years. The only forward motion IMO was Megatraveller and TNE (and 1248). Otherwise, it seems to have been mostly about keeping it the same so the fans don't get annoyed (GURPS Traveller at least added some much needed detail).

Having a stable group of designers who actually worked as a team from 1977 to 1996 helped a great deal, I'm sure; TSR over that period went through much intra-company strife.

And yet between '77 and '96 Traveller had no less than four very different editions that all used different rules (though T4 was released in 1996, so I don't think that counts as being the same stable group of designers). And also, I was under the impression that Marc Miller wasn't really involved as much in the development of Traveller in the MT and especially TNE eras.

Or maybe, just maybe, we've always been a bit more mature as a group? I'm not saying Traveller players don't have combat happy beserkers... but they don't get a direct game reward for killing everything in sight, nor become rapidly even better at killing stuff by doing so. The main direct reward for play in Trav is cash; the main form of self-improvement is stuff. D&D has novices who improve through play to be experts; in Traveller this is all done before play starts.

People like different games for all sorts of reasons, and whether they just want to kick back and smash down doors and kill monsters or try to finagle a deal with someone for some dodgy cargo on a backwater planet has nothing to do with "maturity" at all. I see no evidence to suggest that a gaming group is "more mature" or "less mature" just because they play certain games, and I don't think that suggesting it is good for the hobby.

 

[Treebore]

As for Traveller, it has never grown stale for me, but then again I am never a follower of "official" and have always ran games that were of interest to me, So I have ran TL 9 games, TL 16/17 games, TL 23 games, ran in the Imperium, ran completely outside of the Imperium, a pretty wide range, really. So Traveller has never felt stagnant to me. I think Traveller is only as stagnant as the GM running it.

As got the D&D and OGL discussion, I am very grateful for the OGL, it gave me True 20, Mutants and Masterminds, Pathfinder, the whole freakin OSR movement, and best of all, Castles and Crusades.

I don't play 3E anymore, nor do I play Pathfinder, but I am glad they exist, I did not become a fan of 4E, and I now have my favorite fantasy RPG of my 26+ years of gaming, so I definitely love the OGL and the effects on the RPG industry it has had.

The best thing about it is the diversity we have. Granted it keeps a lot of people from becoming "dominant", but that is only bad from the business side of things. From the consumer side our chances of finding the RPG that best fits what we like is probably the best they have ever been.

I was lucky enough to find the RPG that fits me best, and I can only hope this environment allows others to find the same for themselves.

 

[DFW]

and best of all, Castles and Crusades.

:!:

Yep

 

[captainjack23]

and best of all, Castles and Crusades.

:!:

Yep

Speaking of which, was there/is there an SF version of C&C ?

 

[DFW]

Speaking of which, was there/is there an SF version of C&C ?

SF version? I'm a bit slow today...

 

[Charakan]

There is an SF game by Troll Lord Games (the publishers of C&C) that uses a very similar engine its called Star Siege.

 

[BP]

StarSiege?
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=58817

 

[DFW]

That answers the Q as to whether or not there is an SF version. Thanks.

 

[captainjack23]

Starsiege ! Okay, thanks. I've even seen it in my FLGS.

 

[aspqrz]

Now for the BIG question.

Can you run Traveller using the StarSiege engine?

Enquiring minds want to know!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously. I rather like Castles and Crusades, but have seen no reviews of StarSiege, anyone know what its like, gamewise?

Phil

 

[kristof65]

MT and TNE were spat on a lot by people who at the time claimed to be the majority. TNE still gets a lot of hate in some quarters.

Claimed is the key word there, I think. Or maybe it was a majority of die-hard fans? TNE worked well for me to draw in lots of new players who had looked at CT and MT and yawned.

 

[kristof65]

The best thing about it is the diversity we have. Granted it keeps a lot of people from becoming "dominant", but that is only bad from the business side of things. From the consumer side our chances of finding the RPG that best fits what we like is probably the best they have ever been.

Not just about finding an RPG that best fits, but actually the ability to build one using OGL components, and knowing that people will still consider playing in your game because most of the pieces will be familiar to them.

I've come to the conclusion that the best OGL RPG would actually be a web service where you build your own core rulebook from a selection of OGL components, and then have it printed on demand for yourself and your players.

For D&D, that would mean selecting what classes/races/feats/skills/etc you want, and possibly adding your own flavor text and artwork (or selecting from "stock" art) before sending it off to print.

For Traveller, something similar, only you'd choose your races, careers, skill lists, etc

 

[aspqrz]

MT and TNE were spat on a lot by people who at the time claimed to be the majority. TNE still gets a lot of hate in some quarters.

Claimed is the key word there, I think. Or maybe it was a majority of die-hard fans? TNE worked well for me to draw in lots of new players who had looked at CT and MT and yawned.

MegaTraveller: The changes to the background were OK - to a point (basically where the whole Imperium self destructed because of Virus and took the rest of the Known Universe with it to boot). The changed game system ... IMO ... sucked majorly.

Many people thought the reverse, true, and others thought the sun shone from Digest Group's nether regions ... I have no idea whatsoever who was a majority, and don't even know if the taking away of the license and release of TNE was because of any of the above. There are conflicting stories ... but the best information claims not ...

TNE: The game system was much better. MUCH better. Pretty damn good, in fact.

What destroyed the whole thing as far as I was concerned was Virus. Stupid. Unbelievable on even the most basic level ... I was stunned to read somewhere in the official stuff that the reason it was so successful was because the entire Imperium, so it claimed, had accepted a mutual suicide pact and agreed that defending against Viruses was NOT a necessity.

And then to have us believe that the rest of the known universe agreed and had the same policies! And that, magically, dead pieces of silicon on TL7-12 computers could somehow be magically turned into living silicon organisms ,,, by radio transmissions ...

Well, anyone who could believe that is welcome to purchase my shares in the Sydney Harbour Bridge, cheap. Cash, small bills only, and in nonconsecutive serial numbers in plain brown paper bags, please.

Yes. I know. Some people thought Virus shone out of someone's backside. Maybe even a majority. I have heard differing stories about the reason for GDW's demise, but personally believe that the idiocy of TNE's background changes had *something* to do with it ...

Which seems to be supported by the fact that T4, MongTrav and T5 (and GURPSTrav) all ignore it and are set in the Classic Imperium or before.

There's no way of knowing, for sure, but it's obvious that there were two camps - Hates Virus/Loves Virus - and the existing versions all chose to ignore it

YMMV of course :wink:

Phil

 

[rinku]

Chalk me up for one who hated MegaTraveller and liked TNE.

MegaT annoyed me for two reasons:

1) Probably the worst run of typos ever done by GDW (vehicle design sequences were literally unusable without the official errata for example). Almost every page involving tables has some error.

2) The new game mechanics were ill-thought out, overly fussy and in the end usually needed the Referee to just make up a target number anyway. Combat didn't actually work - vacc suits immune to small arms fire?

The rebellion business didn't engage me either.

TNE was a good rules set; it would have been interesting if GDW had lasted to see it used for other universes.