Thoughts on the Dark Imperium

[Sigtrygg]

If you believe that there is no fundamental good and evil, we cannot have a discussion.

Why not? Because you refuse to engage with people who don't share your opinions? We are discussing just fine.
By the way not have discourse with someone who's views don't match yours is evil...

It is impossible to discuss morality with people who have none.

Not true, you are discussing it now and you don't have a clue what my morality is, other than I believe good and evil to be taught and subjective rather than innate, people from different cultures have different ideas about what is good and what is evil.

If you believe that enslaving other people is not evil, then We cannot have a discussion.

Again you are the one who want to halt all discourse, you want to deny another point of view, that is evil.
Enslaving others was likely a more humane way of dealing with a tribe you had just conquered, I mean you could kill all the men and boys and take the women and girls for enlarging your tribe, but keeping them alive to do the jobs you don't want to do makes a lot more sense.

If you believe that a "society" that has no care for those who live within it is a civil society, then we cannot have a discussion.

If you don't want to discuss then how can you oppose? Kill? Socialist, marxist, communist, fascist, religious based cultures, have all ignored the individual for the good of the society (or rather the rulers of said society). How do you reconcile murdering unborn children, or sending people to clinics to be euthanised with a "good" society?

If you believe that morality is subjective, than we cannot have a conversation.

I have stated many times that I fully believe morality is subjective, and yet we discuss it. What authority grants human rights? Who enforces them?

If you cannot understand the difference between light and dark, then how can you define a "Dark Imperium".

I understand the difference, having a different philosophical rational to morality doesn't mean we don't understand each other.

If you think that China's One Child policy is not evil, then we cannot have a conversation.

China doesn't have a one child policy. They did have, but they realised their social engineering policy had an unfortunate knock on effect. Do you consider killing unborn children morally wrong? How about the state euthanising the disabled, the mentally ill, the destitute, the elderly?

If you think Hilter gassing millions of people wasn't evil, then We cannot have a conversation.

Point of fact - there is no evidence Hitler personally gassed anyonone. He ordered the act and there were thousands of ordinary Germans willing to comply with the order, there were thousands of German French, Dutch, Belgian etc police and civil servants willing to arrest Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and others to put on the trains to the death camps.
And once again we are having a conversation.
Just for clarity I consider any deliberate genocidal act to be evil, the nuking of Japan is a debate I am willing to have another time and place.

IF you think the US nuking Japan, not once but twice, wasn't evil, then We cannot have a conversation.

I know it is a turn of phrase but it is not a very helpful one. people have been debating the justification for the use of nukes, was it evil? No, it was no more evil than blanket bombing of cities. Alternatively you can say it was done to avoid a bigger loss of life, which is a good thing.

Evil is pretty black and white.

No it isn't, it is only so in your opinion. The fact that I can disagree with you proves that,

Morality is objective, not subjective.

Again no. Do I have to use the Aztec argument again? How about the African kings who gained great wealth and status for their tribes by raiding weaker tribes and using the captives as slaves and human sacrifice? Or the native americans who took slaves from rival tribes.

Just because people used to consider stoning other people to death for wearing different kinds of fabric together, does not make it non-evil.

In your opinion. In their opinion it is a lawful and just act. If good an evil, if morality, was objective then attitudes could not change they would be immutable.

Those people were evil and just wanted an excuse to do evil, because it is easier to be evil than to be good.

No, they did it - and many still have similar cultures - because their laws, their culture, their religion, their morality said that their society required those rules to be obeyed.

I want to be a good person, but I cannot make that claim. I have taken the lives of others in war.

There is a big difference between killing enemy combatants and murdering helpless civilians. Killing someone who is going to kill you or those you are sworn to protect is very different to slaughtering the innocent. And I empathise with the moral dilemma you feel.

The reason doesn't matter. Killing people is not a good act, it is merely an expedient act.

Killing others to protect yourself, your family, your tribe, your country, your culture is more than expedient.

Sometimes it is necessary, but having done so, I have forever given up the ability to call Myself a good person.

Of course you are a good person, you wouldn't be able to type that if you were evil because you wouldn't have any doubt over what you were called upon to do.

I give to those who have less than myself, usually not money since I do not have much of that, but I raise animals for food and any extra I have, I give to those who do not. I could sell it, but if they had money to buy meat, they would have already done so. So, I give it to people who need it for free. This is one of the reasons why I do not have a lot of cash.

Living by example is one of those things I would call good. You are a good person in my book.

No matter how many good acts that I do, I will never be a good person.

By your actions towards others you prove you are a good person, you respect others and wish to do well by them. What you were called upon to do in the past, and possibly again in the future (I sincerely hope not) was required by society was it not?

If We ever actually do have a good and moral society, I will not be able to live there. My past evil acts preclude that from occuring.

You are being far too harsh on yourself. At the risk of dipping back into christianity and or other religions, forgiveness is granted to those who repent. Oddly it is often the hardest thing to forgive ourselves.

Also, because I would commit the same evil again if I had to fight another war.

I hope and pray war will one day be a thing of the past, Until then I want to be on the winning side rather than the losing. I do not want to see harm come to my family or friends so if there is an enemy intent on causing that harm then killing is justified.

So, I can not claim to be a good person. I just do the best I can while acknowledging the simple truth, "I have strayed from the moral path and if needed would stray again." That is not the mark of a good person.

In my book it is the mark of a good person - you want to do the best for others even if that involves taking up arms to defend them.

 

[Condottiere]

Humans are pretty selfish creatures.

If it doesn't affect us adversely, we tend to be able to tolerate most environments, political or otherwise.

If the Imperium as a whole tends to ignore you, it might be considered the beneficial outcome.

However, there is some expectation of reciprocity, in that it agreed to keep really bad things far away from your current abode, if your planet is part of it.

 

[Bense]

Q: Was the Third Imperium, as presented in Classic Traveller, intended by the game's designers to be the good guys, or the bad guys?

A: Broadly speaking, they were intended to be the "good guys".

Expansion: When first published Traveller had no set background. The ruleset was intended as a generic sci-fi RPG, though it had the baked-in assumptions that there was no interstellar communication faster than a starship and those starships were relatively slow (1-6 parsecs per week).

The first vague mention of an Imperium was in Book 5: High Guard (1979), two years after the publication of the main rulebooks.
1979 was also the year the first published adventures were created by GDW. These early adventures usually cast the players (the Travellers) as law-breakers, so the Imperium was presented as the opposition and was not depicted in a very good light.

The first real presentation of the Third Imperium as a game setting was in Different Worlds 9 (Aug/Sep 1980), Chaosium's RPG magazine. "The Imperium, A Traveller Campaign" by Marc Miller and Frank Chadwick. This article included the familiar map of Charted Space that is the basis of what is on Travellermap.com now. There are a few obvious differences from what came later - the K'kree are called merely "the centaurs" and they are described as "most notable for their slow pace of life and philosophical orientation". The Hivers are described merely as "the Hive, a communal life form derived from omnivore/eater stock." Most of the other elements of the Charted Space setting are there, however: Humaniti, the Vilani, Solomani, and Zhodani. The Aslan, Vargr, and Droyne are mostly recognizable. The First Imperium, Interstellar Wars, Second Imperium, Long Night, and then the Sylean Federation developing into the Third Imperium under Cleon I are all present. The X-boat network and the Feudal structure of the Imperium are given as practical solutions to long communications times.
"Individual worlds, and even entire systems, are free to govern themselves as they desire, provided always that of course, ultimate power is accorded the Imperium. Interstellar government begins at the subsector level - on one world designated the subsector capitol. This subsector duke has a free hand in government, and is subject only to broad guidelines from higher levels of government, ultimately to the Emperor himself. The feudal approach depends greatly on a sense of honor, one cultivated by the hereditary aristocracy. This sense of honor is very strong within the Imperium; it has proven essential to the survival of such a far-flung community."
The distinction between Major and Minor races is mentioned, along with the Ancients and the concept of the Six Races. This leads in to Haut-Devroe's Solomani Hypothesis, the First Frontier war and the Imperial Civil War, and the beginnings of the Solomani Movement. "In general terms, the adherents of the movement believed that the pure Terran racial stock was best suited for ruling the Imperium. They based this primarily on the historical argument that the original Terran invasion, though vastly outnumbered, had succeeded in bringing down the rotten and corrupt structure of the First Imperium." The Solomani Autonomous Region is described, and then the results: "In the mid 900's, Empress Margaret II turned her attention to the Solomani in response to appeals from any client worlds within the sphere. The reports indicated that the Solomani were perhaps too overbearing in their belief in their own superiority. Authority was concentrated in a few highly placed, genetically true Terrans, with a general disregard for the basic equality of races." The Solomani Rim War is described in brief, along with the invasion of Terra.
The final section of the article includes a brief timeline and a section on Psionics and the Psionics suppressions and the note that "And, of course, there is much, much more."

Some important notes on this first presentation of the Third Imperium as a campaign setting:

• This is not written as an in-universe propaganda piece. It's presented as a factual account.
• The Third Imperium is presented as a positive development after the Long Night and its feudal structure is depicted as a practical solution to long communication times, not based on any ideology.
• Worlds in the Imperium are given a great deal of independence. Since the world generation rules allowed for a wide array of possible government structures this was consistent.
• The Imperium is presented as more cosmopolitan than the surrounding regions, with lots of non-human sophonts ("over 100") within its borders.
• The Third Imperium are very-clearly presented as the good guys in the Solomani-Imperial conflict, with the leaders of the Solomani Movement being depicted as racist and mistreating non-Terran humans and other races. The Invasion Earth boardgame wasn't released until 1981, by the way.
• At the same time the Third Imperium is not presented as faultless paragons of virtue. The establishment of the Solomani Autonomous Region is presented as a mistake, with the Imperium basically turning its back on a troublesome area of space and then having to fight a bloody war a couple of centuries later to rectify the mistake, with only a partial victory.

From this point on the Third Imperium was depicted as a generally positive force in Charted Space, though certainly not without its faults. This depiction continued throughout Classic Traveller and pretty much every version of the game after.

Summary: The earliest vague references to the Third Imperium in 1979 depicted it as the opposition to the players and portrayed it in a negative light. This was in keeping with the general style of published RPG adventures of the time, where players were adventurers in frontier areas essentially after wealth.

When GDW decided to present a detailed setting in 1980, however, they chose to depict the Third Imperium as an essentially positive force, though not without faults. They are clearly "the good guys" in the Solomani Rim War and the Fifth Frontier War. GDW was consistent in this approach up until they depicted the fall of the Third Imperium in MegaTraveller, seven years later.

You can certainly make the Third Imperium much darker in your own Traveller universe, of course.

 

[actionman]

He's certainly not spending any time thinking about improving the lot of the residents of all the hellworlds and tyrannical planetary governments in the Imperium.

It's vastly simpler, cheaper, and easier to let planetary populations sort out their own problems and remain free of responsibility for the outcome. Only actions that cause widespread destruction, like unlimited invasions of one Imperial world by another, the use of nuclear weapons in planetary conflicts, and slavery (slavery causes economic destruction and slave raids cause physical and economic destruction), are banned by Imperial decree. And anything that impedes interstellar commerce, because the feudal pyramid depends on it, as well as the lives of billions.

I felt a bit sick, definitely disgusted by the first chapter and had to put the book down.

For me, it was a simply a very bad eyeroller. Ok, Bland is a Hard Man Making Hard Decisions While Hard. Shooting the naval officer bit seemed like an amateurish attempt at shock, to prove to the reader what a Hard Man Bland was. I couldn't take it seriously. That book needed serious editorial help, like Intensive Care Unit editorial help. I'll have to force myself to read it, so I can critique it.

 

[WHULorigan]

Perhaps a topic for a secondary thread, but considering T5 and AotI and UltraTech (TL27) "Reality Manipulation", it might be an interesting thought experiment to figure out what sends the Imperium down each tine of a notional fork in conceptual timelines/worldlines: "Dark Imperium" (early original conceptual version) vs. simply "Grey" Imperium (published later GDW timeline). The Zhodani "misfits" have been busily "dancing" after all . . . ( - See AotI reference).

Things to consider:

• Cleon I Zhunastu and his vision: What did he and Zuan Kerr really intend for "Cleon's" Imperium?
• Zhodani and Imperials First Contact: Year 50
• Cleon II assumes Throne: Year 53
• Cleon II abdicates; Artemsus Lentuli assumes Throne: Year 54
• Zuan Kerr vs. Aretmsus Lentuli: What if Kerr had prevailed?
• Even in a Lentuli Imperium, how many of Kerr's followers still had influence?
• Failure of Lentuli line and another "Mad" Zhunastu
  • ==> Leads to Right of Assassination and non-Dynastic Emperors
  • ==> Leads to 1st Frontier War-Civil War-2nd Frontier War and Alkahlikoi Dynasty
• The Rise of Imperial Psionics under Paulo I after the Tunnel Collapse incident of his older sister, Margaret I
• Just why was Styryx forced to abdicate? Was it just his mishandling of the 3rd Frontier War, or something deeper? The Solomani Rim War immediately followed.

And how much did Psychohistory play in all of this - In variant worldline branches?

The "Dark" Imperium fits the historical Lentuli Imperium well:

"Kerr was a vocal opponent of Emperor Artemsus's militaristic "pacification growth" concept, first espoused by Artemsus in 60. Kerr had much sympathy in the Moot. However, Kerr died in 67, and over the next ten years, Artemsus was able to sway the Moot, now that the great champion of the "Kerrian" political period was dead. The Pacification Campaigns started in 76, and lasted for some 60 years. Historians consider the pacification period under Artemsus to be one of the darker periods of Imperial history. "​

Also, Cleon certainly set up the Imperium as a profitable enterprise for the Corporate Nobility, and (according to T4) set up the (much more Secret) "High Moot":

" . . . [Cleon] appointed the great families who had been signatories of the Charter of Arlea to form the High Moot. Though not widely publicized (and in fact many citizens of the Imperium, and even members of the Moot, had never heard of it), the highest level of decision-making within the Moot was the Arlea Committee, which in the year 0 comprised the heads of the original nine great houses which had signed the Charter of Arlea (including the head of the Zhunastu house, Emperor Cleon I)."​

where all of the "Real" decisions were made and "suggested" to the "Imperial Moot" (Senate ?) to be passed (AND ALWAYS WERE/ARE). The members were all awarded Knighthoods by Cleon in the Order of the Cross of Arlea.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Q: Was the Third Imperium, as presented in Classic Traveller, intended by the game's designers to be the good guys, or the bad guys?

A: Bad guys.

A: Broadly speaking, they were intended to be the "good guys".

Disagree due to the evidence of the early adventures and TAS News articles.

Expansion: When first published Traveller had no set background. The ruleset was intended as a generic sci-fi RPG, though it had the baked-in assumptions that there was no interstellar communication faster than a starship and those starships were relatively slow (1-6 parsecs per week).

Agreed.

The first vague mention of an Imperium was in Book 5: High Guard (1979), two years after the publication of the main rulebooks.
1979 was also the year the first published adventures were created by GDW. These early adventures usually cast the players (the Travellers) as law-breakers, so the Imperium was presented as the opposition and was not depicted in a very good light.

Incorrect. It was first mentioned in LBB:4 Mercenary.

The first real presentation of the Third Imperium as a game setting was in Different Worlds 9 (Aug/Sep 1980), Chaosium's RPG magazine. "The Imperium, A Traveller Campaign" by Marc Miller and Frank Chadwick. This article included the familiar map of Charted Space that is the basis of what is on Travellermap.com now. There are a few obvious differences from what came later - the K'kree are called merely "the centaurs" and they are described as "most notable for their slow pace of life and philosophical orientation". The Hivers are described merely as "the Hive, a communal life form derived from omnivore/eater stock." Most of the other elements of the Charted Space setting are there, however: Humaniti, the Vilani, Solomani, and Zhodani. The Aslan, Vargr, and Droyne are mostly recognizable. The First Imperium, Interstellar Wars, Second Imperium, Long Night, and then the Sylean Federation developing into the Third Imperium under Cleon I are all present. The X-boat network and the Feudal structure of the Imperium are given as practical solutions to long communications times.

All of which are to be found in the library data of the early adventures and in JTAS articles that pre-date the DW article.

Summary:
When GDW decided to present a detailed setting in 1980, however, they chose to depict the Third Imperium as an essentially positive force, though not without faults. They are clearly "the good guys" in the Solomani Rim War and the Fifth Frontier War. GDW was consistent in this approach up until they depicted the fall of the Third Imperium in MegaTraveller, seven years later.

You can certainly make the Third Imperium much darker in your own Traveller universe, of course.

I disagree with your summary.

 

[Bense]

A few thoughts on Agent of the Imperium:
Is Bland intended to be heroic? Yes, it seems clear he is.

Yes, he kills billions during the course of the novel, but he feels badly about it when he does, and he always does it in attempts to save even more lives.

He ruins the careers of several officers during the course of the novel, but he does this to make examples of them, and it pays off in that at later activations his authority is recognized without such opposition. He does make mistakes, such as not giving the naval personnel who participated in his first scrubbing sufficient ways to process what they were doing. He learns from these mistakes over the course of the novel, however.

The only case where he is vindictive is with the funeral manager who promised him a monument and then failed to deliver.

He is definitely a positive force in the lives of "Sticky" (who he sets up as a noble for basically being good at his job), Enna Plant (who he effectively gives a second life of adventure to), the clone family he frees from slavery, and the Vargr family on Capital that he gives the job of tending his gravesite. He gives many other hosts good pay or promotions along the way. And at the climax of the novel he saves the Geonee from extinction against the express wishes of the Empress.

Yeah, he's a somewhat ruthless good guy in a ruthless universe.

Also note that the novel depicts the Vilani afterlife/pre-existence of Dakhaseri, The Audience of Stars as real, at least for Jonathan Bland/Chonadon Bilanidin. Bland receives information there between activations that later proves accurate.

 

[Bense]

I disagree with your summary.

Obviously.
Note that I'm arguing what GDW's intent was. You may believe they did a poor job of depicting the Imperium as the good guys, or much prefer the Imperium as the bad guys in your campaigns without disagreeing with what GDW's intent was.

 

[Bense]

Incorrect. It was first mentioned in LBB:4 Mercenary.

You are correct, my mistake.

To quote Shannon Appelcline in Free Trader Beowulf:
"Even when GDW began publishing supplements, they still mostly avoided an explicit setting. Yet there were hints. Book 5: High Guard (1979), one of a trio of books sent to the printer in November of 1979, cagily noted that Traveller assumed ‘a remote centralised government (referred to in this volume as the Imperium)’. The most interesting part of that statement is not the mention of the Imperium but the fact that it was still seen as a placeholder – a term used in the rulebooks that players might then ignore when they created their own universes."

 

[Sigtrygg]

Perhaps a topic for a secondary thread, but considering T5 and AotI and UltraTech (TL27) "Reality Manipulation", it might be an interesting thought experiment to figure out what sends the Imperium down each tine of a notional fork in conceptual timelines/worldlines: "Dark Imperium" (early original conceptual version) vs. simply "Grey" Imperium (published later GDW timeline). The Zhodani "misfits" have been busily "dancing" after all . . . ( - See AotI reference).

Spoiler

Things to consider:

• Cleon I Zhunastu and his vision: What did he and Zuan Kerr really intend for "Cleon's" Imperium?
• Zhodani and Imperials First Contact: Year 50
• Cleon II assumes Throne: Year 53
• Cleon II abdicates; Artemsus Lentuli assumes Throne: Year 54
• Zuan Kerr vs. Aretmsus Lentuli: What if Kerr had prevailed?
• Even in a Lentuli Imperium, how many of Kerr's followers still had influence?
• Failure of Lentuli line and another "Mad" Zhunastu
  • ==> Leads to Right of Assassination and non-Dynastic Emperors
  • ==> Leads to 1st Frontier War-Civil War-2nd Frontier War and Alkahlikoi Dynasty
• The Rise of Imperial Psionics under Paulo I after the Tunnel Collapse incident of his older sister, Margaret I
• Just why was Styryx forced to abdicate? Was it just his mishandling of the 3rd Frontier War, or something deeper? The Solomani Rim War immediately followed.

And how much did Psychohistory play in all of this - In variant worldline branches?

The "Dark" Imperium fits the historical Lentuli Imperium well:

"Kerr was a vocal opponent of Emperor Artemsus's militaristic "pacification growth" concept, first espoused by Artemsus in 60. Kerr had much sympathy in the Moot. However, Kerr died in 67, and over the next ten years, Artemsus was able to sway the Moot, now that the great champion of the "Kerrian" political period was dead. The Pacification Campaigns started in 76, and lasted for some 60 years. Historians consider the pacification period under Artemsus to be one of the darker periods of Imperial history. "​

Also, Cleon certainly set up the Imperium as a profitable enterprise for the Corporate Nobility, and (according to T4) set up the (much more Secret) "High Moot":

" . . . [Cleon] appointed the great families who had been signatories of the Charter of Arlea to form the High Moot. Though not widely publicized (and in fact many citizens of the Imperium, and even members of the Moot, had never heard of it), the highest level of decision-making within the Moot was the Arlea Committee, which in the year 0 comprised the heads of the original nine great houses which had signed the Charter of Arlea (including the head of the Zhunastu house, Emperor Cleon I)."​

where all of the "Real" decisions were made and "suggested" to the "Imperial Moot" (Senate ?) to be passed (AND ALWAYS WERE/ARE). The members were all awarded Knighthoods by Cleon in the Order of the Cross of Arlea.

Reality manipulation technology is how I make sense of the mess that is the OYU with all of its inconsistencies and technology changes.

1. races that predate grandfather had achieved reality manipulation, they seeded our bit of the galaxy with psionics to see what would happen

2. grandfather discovers jump drive (I still explain it as he actually built a device that propogated a wave that generate a jump dimension interface manifold/membrane that allows machine to access psionic dimensions in a limited manner)

3. grandfather achieves reality manipulation technology and discovers the nature of the experiment

4. Ancients war - grandfather wipes out his children and grandchildren, he kept careful count, and goes into hiding from the experimenters.

5. grandfather's jump wave spreads at light speed so eventually reaches all of our galaxy and then beyond

6. CT OTU

7. Rebellion and the first reality war - the primordials, a race that had used psionic teleportation for space travel returned to charted space to investigate grandfather's wave, the experimenters took them out by changing reality using a reality manipulation

8. The manipulation had the effect of altering technological progression within the historical OTU, hence the disappearance of gravitic drives

9. grandfather manipulated reality to save his offspring, he may need help having seen what happened to the primordials.

10. the empress wave and its changing nature is due to the reality manipulation technology, for some reason grandfather considers humanity and vargr critical to surviving the reality wars vs the experimenters.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You are correct, my mistake.

To quote Shannon Appelcline in Free Trader Beowulf:
"Even when GDW began publishing supplements, they still mostly avoided an explicit setting. Yet there were hints. Book 5: High Guard (1979), one of a trio of books sent to the printer in November of 1979, cagily noted that Traveller assumed ‘a remote centralised government (referred to in this volume as the Imperium)’. The most interesting part of that statement is not the mention of the Imperium but the fact that it was still seen as a
placeholder – a term used in the rulebooks that players might then ignore when they created their own universes."

I told Shannon that LBB:4 was first, the text that made it to print was the best way to edit what had previously been written in error. It should have been changed to LBB:4 was the first to mention it, but hey ho.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Obviously.
Note that I'm arguing what GDW's intent was. You may believe they did a poor job of depicting the Imperium as the good guys, or much prefer the Imperium as the bad guys in your campaigns without disagreeing with what GDW's intent was.

They flat out depicted the Imperium as the bad guys in the early adventures, there is no gray area here. The intent was Imperial = baddies. Over time the intent was modified.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Also note that the novel depicts the Vilani afterlife/pre-existence of Dakhaseri, The Audience of Stars as real, at least for Jonathan Bland/Chonadon Bilanidin. Bland receives information there between activations that later proves accurate.

There are other explanations for this...

 

[Bense]

They flat out depicted the Imperium as the bad guys in the early adventures, there is no gray area here. The intent was Imperial = baddies. Over time the intent was modified.

Which was before they came up with the basic background of the Third Imperium. "The Imperium" in those early materials was a placeholder, intended to be easily replaced with whatever opposition group the Referee used in his own Traveller game.

Once the Third Imperium setting was codified in 1980 they were intended as the good guys.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Regardless whether they were intended to be good or bad, I find myself liking the proposals here and will be rolling them into my game. Thanks for all the discourse on it.

 

[WHULorigan]

Q: Was the Third Imperium, as presented in Classic Traveller, intended by the game's designers to be the good guys, or the bad guys?

A: Broadly speaking, they were intended to be the "good guys".

They flat out depicted the Imperium as the bad guys in the early adventures, there is no gray area here. The intent was Imperial = baddies. Over time the intent was modified.

I think that the other possible way to look at it was that Star Wars came out just as Traveller was going to print, so that when it hit the shelves, there was a "Star Wars mood" among the early players which shaped the way GDW initially envisioned their "sandbox" fluff for the "Imperium" background in 1979. The Imperium was analogous to the "Empire" (without the outright "Dark Side" and "Force" and "supernatural" malevolence, just the natural human vice of power corrupting over centuries-worth of entrenchment) and the players could act without overtly moral or ethical qualms about "breaking the law" against a "bad Imperium" in their adventuring activities.

I believe Loren Wiseman once mentioned that the Ine Givar were originally envisioned as something akin to the Rebel Alliance, something that the players might be members of or would seek out to join, work for, or ally with. That changed of course, as the nature of the Imperium began to change.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Which was before they came up with the basic background of the Third Imperium. "The Imperium" in those early materials was a placeholder, intended to be easily replaced with whatever opposition group the Referee used in his own Traveller game.

Once the Third Imperium setting was codified in 1980 they were intended as the good guys.

The library data says otherwise, the Regina subsector says otherwise. There is a fleshed out Imperium in Kinunir. The Spinward Marches supplement was '79 with its declining Imperium.

 

[Sigtrygg]

"Interstellar directions within the Galaxy are expressed with respect to its shape and rotation. Toward the central core, the term is coreward; toward the rim, and intergalactic space, rimward. In the direction from which the galaxy is rotating, trailing; and in the direction of galactic spin, spinward. These direction conventions provide the name for a frontier of the Imperium, the Spinward Marches.
At the spinward edge, 120 parsecs from the original center of the Imperium, the Marches represent one of the furthest extents of exploration and domination by Imperial forces. Lying adjacent to territory of the Zhodani Consulate and the Vargr Extents, this region is a site which has seen conflict and intrigue.

Dates: All dates herein conform to the Imperial calendar. The assumed date of this supplement is 1105; the 1105th year of the Imperium.

Capital. The world indicated is the seat of government at the subsector (or other interstellar) level. In many cases, this government is independent of the local planetary government. Examples include Subsector Capital, Confederation Capital, and Frontier District Capital.
Exile Camp. A location committed to the containment of individuals guilty (or presumed guilty) of political crimes of discontent. Governmental controls are usually restricted to the retention of inmates, and a general oppression of the population.
lmperial Prison. A penitentiary or rehabilitation center for those guilty of lmperial crimes.
lmperial Research Station. An installation devoted to one or more research projects of lmperial interest.
lmperial Reservation. A location, usually very large, under lmperial jurisdiction and restricted to use only by members of the lmperial family, or those authorized by a member of the lmperial family.
lmperial Way Station. A base established for the repair, maintenance, and overhaul of lmperial equipment. It may include provisions for Army troop barracks, naval and scout ship overhauls, and intelligence operations.

Imperium: The lrnperium is a strong interstellar government encompassing 281 subsectors and approximately 11,000 worlds. Approximately 1100 years old, it is the third human empire to control this area, the oldest, and the strongest. Nevertheless, it is under strong pressure from i t s neighboring interstellar governments, and does not have the strength nor the power which it once had."

Supplement 3: The Spinward Marches 1979, looks like a well developed Imperium to me.

 

[Bense]

I think that the other possible way to look at it was that Star Wars came out just as Traveller was going to print, so that when it hit the shelves, there was a "Star Wars mood" among the early players which shaped the way GDW initially envisioned their "sandbox" fluff for the "Imperium" background in 1979. The Imperium was analogous to the "Empire" (without the outright "Dark Side" and "Force" and "supernatural" malevolence, just the natural human vice of power corrupting over centuries-worth of entrenchment) and the players could act without overtly moral or ethical qualms about "breaking the law" against a "bad Imperium" in their adventuring activities.

I believe Loren Wiseman once mentioned that the Ine Givar were originally envisioned as something akin to the Rebel Alliance, something that the players might be members of or would seek out to join, work for, or ally with. That changed of course, as the nature of the Imperium began to change.

Yep.
The Fifth Frontier War completed the reversal of that initial depiction, showing the Ine Givar were terrorists fully willing to inflict civilian casualties and ultimately under Zhodani control.

 

[Bense]

Supplement 3: The Spinward Marches 1979, looks like a well developed Imperium to me.

We disagree. Supplement 3 is at best a vague sketch.
It's also very different in tone from products produced only a year later.