Things that are broken from CT book 3 worldgen

[EDG]

The point to atmosphere 1 versus 0 is wind, EDG. Wind makes a huge difference in rock formation.

As you pointed out*, Mars runs in the Trace range (Martian surface ranges 6-10 mBar, and 1013mBar=1Atm), and the wind is profound in the environment.

Actually, by the MT definitions, the breakpoint for very thin is 0.1Atm, about 10x that of mars' 0.01Atm. (MT Ref's page 22.)

*years ago

Yeah, I'd rather replace the "Trace" label with "Tenuous". that goes from 0-0.1 atms (0 to 100 mbar) continuously rather than in discrete steps of 0.01 atm. Mars and Triton in our solar system are actually below the lowest listed "Trace" pressure in WBH - Mars is about 6-10 mbar as you said, (0.006-0.010 atm) and Triton is in the microbar range (below 0.01 atm). But they're still not vacuum.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

POPULATION:

We all agree (I think) that POP needs to be tied to ATM somehow. I would love to be able to tie it to the habitable zone as well, but for the basic rules we have to assume that all mainworlds are in the habitable zone (ATM 2-9 certainly are).

So, ATM 0, 1, A, B, C, E and F are not breathable (using EDG's revised ATM codes for D+)

ATM 2, 3, D, E all require some kind of assistance to breath (although parts of the D and E will be breathable without assistance, I put them here for convenience and the fact that a high Gravity should have some effect).

ATM 4, 7, 9 only require a filter to breath and per the trade codes are often treated as if that doesn't matter (Agricultural for example).

ATM 5, 6, 8 are breathable without assistance.

So, that gives us 4 groups of atmospheres, with the last two being pretty close to each other.

For the Industrial Trade Code we HAVE to have tainted atmospheres with POP 9+, so whatever we come up with has to give that result.

I still like the idea of a 1D roll for population with DMs, and a Random 2D-2 if you roll a 6. It gives you the wacky populations some times, but not often enough that you run out of ideas for figuring out why.

So, each category has a population range of 5.

I suggest the following DMs:

ATM 1-, A-C, F: DM: -2 (values below 0 are treated as 0)
ATM 2, 3, D, E: DM: -1
ATM 4, 7, 9: DM: +4
ATM 5, 6, 8: DM +5

That gives normal ranges as follows:

ATM 1-, A-C, F: POP: 0-3, Average: 1.5
ATM 2, 3, D, E: POP: 0-4, Average 3
ATM 4, 7, 9: POP: 5-9, Average 7
ATM 5, 6, 8: POP: 6-A, Average 8

Each having a 16% chance of a random 2D-2 population instead of above.

That definitely keeps the populations to the breathable atmospheres, but maybe too much? Also, does it make the Hi Pop worlds (POP 9+) too common (16% for tainted and 33% for breathable)?

If we try to use 2D for the base roll, then it is too easy to get populations over A or distorts the ratio of POP 9 worlds from POP A worlds. Personally, there should be more POP 9 worlds than POP A worlds.

Also, if we go much more than this, we start loosing the "QUICK AND SIMPLE" idea of rolling up the UWPs and we deviate even farther from CT, both of which are BAD things and MWM may not approve.

WHADAYATHINK?

 

[EDG]

Also, if we go much more than this, we start loosing the "QUICK AND SIMPLE" idea of rolling up the UWPs and we deviate even farther from CT, both of which are BAD things and MWM may not approve.

I should point out that even MWM has apparently decided that star generation should take place before worlds are rolled up, even in his "simple" system.

As for the trade codes, I think some of them could do with being changed. The "In" one is particularly silly - why would you need billions of people to be "Industrial"?

 

[SableWyvern]

As for the trade codes, I think some of them could do with being changed. The "In" one is particularly silly - why would you need billions of people to be "Industrial"?

Well, it's possibly somewhat faulty in that it fails to allow for massive automation, but you need to consider that the lack of an In code doesn't indicate a lack of significant industrial capacity (that's covered by Ni). In means massively industrialised, sufficient to be exporting over an entire sector. At least that's my inference, given the wide gap between the Ni and In codes.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Agreed, the Rich trade code certainly assumes some level of industrialization (so they can make all those luxury goods).

I don't have a problem with POP 9+ for Industrialized, but I do have a problem with needing a Tainted Atmosphere. This means that you can only be industrialized if you have ruined your planetary atmosphere, which seems contrary to high tech manufacturing, Nano Manufacturing and Orbital Manufacturing.

I know the standard vision of an Industrial World is Giedi Prime from the Dune books, but surely there must be other examples (maybe Trantor from the Foundation?).

The problem is that without the atmospheric requirement, then every Hi Pop world (POP 9+) becomes and Industrialized world and I don't think you could count modern day Earth as an Industrial World. Portions of it, yes, but not the entire planet (POP=9), so maybe we have to keep it that way just to make it different. (talking myself out of my own argument...)

 

[GamerDude]

Outside of the problem with assuming every planet has a unified planetary govt, the system works fine.

I had to dig out book 3 to double check the TNE version, but you're looking for gov code 7, Balkanization: "No central ruling authority exists, rival governments compete for for control."

Then I wonder what the problems are with the Law/Govt systems as they exist, unless it's the fact that the 'star/system/world gen process is so severely broken that these are being 'lumped in' with the rest.

I know EDG thinks everything I post is 'a snarking comment (or something like that)' and won't lower himself to respond, and captainjack23 just wants to focus on the planets... but really can anyone point out problems with the Law/Gov't system in all this?

 

[SableWyvern]

I'm not aware of any significant issues with Government. The Fedual Technocracy could do with some details on what it actually is; otherwise it should probably be replaced. Charismatic and Non-charasmatic Leaders could probably be rolled into a single entry as well (no system is likely to have more than one charismatic dictator every few generations at most, and a perpetuating charasmatic leader is indicative of a representative democracy).

As for law, the problem is that it's mainly defined by it's effect on weapon use at lower levels (sub-A). I don't consider this a real problem, but I can undertand why some people do. The easiest fix would be to discuss the effect law level has on a range of issues, and point out that on any given issue, actual law level may vary (possibly significantly) from the official value in the UWP.

 

[SableWyvern]

The problem is that without the atmospheric requirement, then every Hi Pop world (POP 9+) becomes and Industrialized world and I don't think you could count modern day Earth as an Industrial World. Portions of it, yes, but not the entire planet (POP=9), so maybe we have to keep it that way just to make it different. (talking myself out of my own argument...)

Could this be mitigated somewhat by eliminating Atm types 0-4 and A+ on the assumption that oxygen is too valuable a resource on such worlds to waste it on massive blast furnaces and other oxidising processes?

Alternatively, you could widen the range of Industrial atmosphere codes for worlds with higher tech levels, atlhough this would alter the dynamic whereby each trade code is predicated on a single set of appropriate UWP values.

 

[captainjack23]

Outside of the problem with assuming every planet has a unified planetary govt, the system works fine.

I had to dig out book 3 to double check the TNE version, but you're looking for gov code 7, Balkanization: "No central ruling authority exists, rival governments compete for for control."

Then I wonder what the problems are with the Law/Govt systems as they exist, unless it's the fact that the 'star/system/world gen process is so severely broken that these are being 'lumped in' with the rest.

I know EDG thinks everything I post is 'a snarking comment (or something like that)' and won't lower himself to respond, and captainjack23 just wants to focus on the planets... but really can anyone point out problems with the Law/Gov't system in all this?

Well, this is the argument I didn't want to get into, but.....no. I don't really have much of problem with the socio codes at all. That part may be a little quirky, but I don't see it as broken, at all. So, I wanted to focus on what was broken, not arguing about if something else was broken or not.

I mean, it took me a while to find out what a charismatic/non-charismatic dictatorship was by the original intent (Hitler was one, as was Mao -Stalin was not - know why ? And it aint his charisma roll in D&D), and feudal technocracy has always been a bit baffling....but hey. It's the future.

So.....
...Population should have some tech mins for wildly uninhabitable worlds, but as to numbers ? No way to know in a 5000 year old society with (at least) one major collapse, why it was settled, and what has happened since & etc - or even how long the population has been at this level. Earth has added essentially all of its population since 3000 BC = certainly increasing 3 orders of magnitude, and how many in the last 500 years ? Or even 50 ?
So, one can really say very little authoritatively about the OTU populations, or the liklihood of such in terms of backwater areas. Things change, often rapidly, and the OTU is only a snapshot.
as to why such a big population in the ass end of nowhere ? Birthcontrol and good medicine or gentle environment perhaps. Lack of anywhere to go would tend to concentrate population rather than diminishit on a planetary level. . "I mean, yeah, Fresno IV is boring, and in the middle of nowhere, but it never snows, and the food is fresh, the air is a bit tinny, sure, but there aint any dog headed freaks shootin us up like back home in corridor. Nothi much to do 'cept farm and make babies - and makin babies is fun ....."

Or, even:
"Used to be was even bigger n' more 'portant when the train came thru, but 't highway went north a heer, an' trains are gone... an' wheres a body t' go, anyway..? "

...tweak law level by removing guns and give each gun a legality rating to correspond, and that seems good to go. Mainly allows new weapons tio be easily added to the forbidden list where appropriate.

...Government type.....hmmmm. Honestly, if I had my druthers, and we were really working at developing this realistically, I'd say toss most of them out and make up a bunch of weird names; if theres one thing that evolves and changes quickly, and to create significant changes, it is governments. But pother than that, the thought that smaller groups are less centralized is a good rule - except where it's not. So, my call is that Pop is good enough, given that most GTs are possible with most populations.
Suggest a new descriptor to tie it to, and we'll see. Hydrographics perhaps ? (I'm only half kidding - one can make an argument about centralism and sea power, but...)

Okay. My 2Cr

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Regarding GOV and LL, I think the biggest issue most people have is that that GOV and LL rolls are tied to POP.

WHY should a world, with a population of 6 Billion, not be able to have a participating democracy (Athenian Democracy) once the Internet is developed (TL 7)? Why cannot a high population world have be run by Companies? Why cannot a small population world of a few hundred have a religious dicatorship?

THAT seems to be the issue.

IMTU (In MY Traveller Universe) I have separate tables of GOV codes based on region/polity etc. The given table is the BASIC table to be used for RANDOM worlds.

If I have a 7-system Pocket Empire that is ruled by a Constitutional Monarchy, then I use a different table than I would for the worlds in the 3-world Empire ruled by a Charismatic Dictator.

So, what I guess I am saying is that if there is a way to EXPAND the Law Level descriptions beyond just weapons we should be OK.

In general, I think people forget that the POP-GOV-LL rolls are generic and long-settled regions. If you are playing in a different region, say a frontier that has never been settled before, then you, as the GM, are going to have to come up with different ways to create your UWP.

 

[EDG]

The problem with government is that it claims that only high pop worlds can have dictatorships and only low pop worlds can have democracies and evertything in the middle has some kind of wacky bureaucracy.

The whole thing could be greatly simplified into just Anarchies, Democracies, Oligarchies and Dictatorships (with different subtypes) and you should be able to have all the gov types accessible to most of the range of possible populations.


The law level problem is that it's mostly defined by weapon possession, as if that's all that is important. Right now if I see a world with law level 6 then I know I can't carry X weapon, but it tells me absolutely nothing about the trade laws, criminal laws, permissibility of society etc.

 

[captainjack23]

Let me warn any casual reader, this is a long answer, with a moderate amount of pedantry....so feel free to skip to the bottom for my main point, and get on with your life, on the off chance that you aren't fascinated by my wit and eruidition...

Regarding GOV and LL, I think the biggest issue most people have is that that GOV and LL rolls are tied to POP.

WHY should a world, with a population of 6 Billion, not be able to have a participating democracy (Athenian Democracy) once the Internet is developed (TL 7)? Why cannot a high population world have be run by Companies? Why cannot a small population world of a few hundred have a religious dicatorship?

THAT seems to be the issue.

Yeah. Let me start by saying that I basically agree with you, that there is no real reason why those can't exist. Let me then continue by saying that this is exactly the problem with moving into the social description part of worldgen.



With the physical stuff, we do have actual physical laws that cap or eliminate the possibility of a given combination...if it is generated and used as is, it really is impossible. Now that may or may not be important to some or all GM's, but it is somewhat to me, and moreso to others:lol: . There are a bunch of good physical reasons why a size 4 planet should never have a dense atmosphere .

The problem is, at present, Sociology, or indeed any subject that includes the study of sentient beings, has no set laws of physics as regarding the behavior of an individual NOR regarding the nature and/or behavior of groups of them. There is no known constant mathmatical relationship between population government and law, as there is between, say, Density, Size and Gravity. (Hari Seldon aside...MY HERO !)
Thus, Sociosciences have to rely on statistical certainty, which while fuzzier than physical certainty, is waaaaaay better than "just make it up".

I've always seen the Gov/Law/Pop ratings as a statement more of what is most likely for a given population than anything definate. Yes, there are 40 person religous dictaorships (in places like LA, Montana and Texas, as a matter of fact) and there could be mega billion athenian democracies. BUT, what the tables provide is an observation that down to a certain level of probablity (~3%) These are non-significant possibilities. Not impossible.

And yes, other models could be set up, and different things could be used to tie GT to. Marc was if, I recall, a political historian/scientist/sociologist (I honestly don't remember) and in those areas then (and now) that was probably the best way to predict most societal issues - population and probability. I'm fine with it, even though I could imagine lots of other models...the problem is, they are no more "provable" than this one, and possibly less so (I've actually studied the literature, abeit in the 90's), and this one is at least blessed by age in a very young field of science.

So, yes, if one posited that an athenian democracy was absolutely as likely as a totalitarian Dictatorship regardless of the population, with reference only to its larger polity, then, yes, a seperate table works.

For me (and this is me I'm speaking for), the impact of population seems crucial to a society, and while it isn't the only factor, it is likely the single most important one, within the scales that we are proposing, and on the range of societies positing them from...

In short, in geektalk it's a one factor solution (poulation is correlated to GT & LL) that probaly accounts for 70% of the variance, with no other factor having more than 1-10% input.

Practically, if you have to pick one variable, you should pick the biggest one with the clearest difference of effect- and if you want to pick more (and predict better) , with no clear way to distinguish between the remainder you have to add a whole bunch of variables. Which means lots more tables and rolls. Which means less time for Slinging dice, shooting Zhods, and drinking Beer.

IMTU (In MY Traveller Universe) I have separate tables of GOV codes based on region/polity etc. The given table is the BASIC table to be used for RANDOM worlds.

If I have a 7-system Pocket Empire that is ruled by a Constitutional Monarchy, then I use a different table than I would for the worlds in the 3-world Empire ruled by a Charismatic Dictator.

absolutely fine. I do it too. In fact, the CT OTU does it,too, in differnt polities.

So, what I guess I am saying is that if there is a way to EXPAND the Law Level descriptions beyond just weapons we should be OK.

I'm not sure if this is me misreading things or what, but IIRC the LL has always been about much more than gun ownership. Red tape ,Harassment, privacy, bribability, crime enforecement and punishment are all cited in CT as based on the LL.
The guns bit may be an Americanism, but I always thought it was so clearly defined and stated because players will go to town with a fusion gun and combat armor if given the opportunity.....
But back them, I do have to admit that most traveller players were recruited from the modern miniature and boardgame players (myself included) all of us know lots more than is really good for us about the varous muzzle velocities of a Polish 37mm ATR before and after adoption by the Wermacht....and think TANKS are cool, and BIG TANKS are cooler.

In any case, I agree about the LL needing to be clarified. :wink:
If the issue of gun ownership dominates perception, then we have another good reason for moving legality to the wepon description, not the society.

In general, I think people forget that the POP-GOV-LL rolls are generic and long-settled regions. If you are playing in a different region, say a frontier that has never been settled before, then you, as the GM, are going to have to come up with different ways to create your UWP.

MAIN POINT FOR THOSE WHO FIND THE ABOVE TO BE NOT THE MOST FASCINATING THING IN THE WORLD AND SKIPPED TO THE CONCLUSION AND WHO CAN BLAME YOU ANYWAY.

Really the point here is that the tables are to generate random worlds in a generic setting with some basis in reality. So......the non significant ly possible worlds (multi-billion anarchies) are yours to shape ! YOURS ! All yours ! Bwaaa haa haaa! *Cough cough*. I'm back ....

Plus, if you use random generation blindly, you deserve what you get - not that it isn't fun......its just a bit more....quirky. :wink:

 

[GamerDude]

Then I wonder what the problems are with the Law/Govt systems as they exist, unless it's the fact that the 'star/system/world gen process is so severely broken that these are being 'lumped in' with the rest.

I know EDG thinks everything I post is 'a snarking comment (or something like that)' and won't lower himself to respond, and captainjack23 just wants to focus on the planets... but really can anyone point out problems with the Law/Gov't system in all this?

Well, this is the argument I didn't want to get into, but.....no. I don't really have much of problem with the socio codes at all.

Thanks for posting Capt... but this is not an argument. EDG made a valid comment in the start of this thread, and this particular topic is something I'm interested in. If there are enough people interested in discussing it to justify a separate thread, it can move to one.

 

[AKAramis]

POPULATION:

We all agree (I think) that POP needs to be tied to ATM somehow. I would love to be able to tie it to the habitable zone as well, but for the basic rules we have to assume that all mainworlds are in the habitable zone (ATM 2-9 certainly are).

So, ATM 0, 1, A, B, C, E and F are not breathable (using EDG's revised ATM codes for D+)

WHADAYATHINK?

BLECH!!!

I don't agree that it needs to be tied nearly so tightly. in fact, any adjustment to population needs to be clearly optional.

 

[GamerDude]

In thinking about the govt/LL types vs population...

Why couldn't technology allow a global govt even on a low pop world.? (will be re-reading the charts later after my migraine goes away for better comments)

 

[EDG]

in fact, any adjustment to population needs to be clearly optional.

Why?

It makes a lot more sense to link the population to things like habitability, location, etc than just randomise it completely with no regard for anything as is already being done in CT.

How strongly it should be tied is another matter. I'm not too keen on RTT's 1d6 + modifiers method, I think he's got too big a bias in favour of habitable worlds. I think I presented my own version that used 2d-2 with less extreme modifiers and that has worked pretty well in the sectors I've designed with it. You tend to get more high pop habitable worlds, but you can still get some that just have thousands or tens of thousands on them. And the vacuum worlds aren't penalised too much either. But the B and C atmospheres should definitely have big penalties to population because there is always going to be somewhere better to live in a system, even if it's a space station.

 

[EDG]

Why couldn't technology allow a global govt even on a low pop world.? (will be re-reading the charts later after my migraine goes away for better comments)

Because "Us Guys hate Those Guys". Technology won't magically dissolve ideological differences that split apart populations. Groups will disagree, leave or get exiled to form their own societies etc, and that will always be the case.

 

[captainjack23]

Well, this is the argument I didn't want to get into, but.....no. I don't really have much of problem with the socio codes at all.

Thanks for posting Capt... but this is not an argument. EDG made a valid comment in the start of this thread, and this particular topic is something I'm interested in. If there are enough people interested in discussing it to justify a separate thread, it can move to one.

For argument read discussion. And EDG isn't an issue for me, so no worries there; I'll note that he was, at least partially, answering a post I made about planetgen when he started this thread.

And as you can see, I have joined in. Part of my concern was that I would bury the Planet stuff by myself...as you see....

That said, any comments on my post beyond that ?

 

[captainjack23]

Why couldn't technology allow a global govt even on a low pop world.? (will be re-reading the charts later after my migraine goes away for better comments)

Because "Us Guys hate Those Guys". Technology won't magically dissolve ideological differences that split apart populations. Groups will disagree, leave or get exiled to form their own societies etc, and that will always be the case.

What he said......

 

[AKAramis]

in fact, any adjustment to population needs to be clearly optional.

Why?

It makes a lot more sense to link the population to things like habitability, location, etc than just randomise it completely with no regard for anything as is already being done in CT.

How strongly it should be tied is another matter. I'm not too keen on RTT's 1d6 + modifiers method, I think he's got too big a bias in favour of habitable worlds. I think I presented my own version that used 2d-2 with less extreme modifiers and that has worked pretty well in the sectors I've designed with it. You tend to get more high pop habitable worlds, but you can still get some that just have thousands or tens of thousands on them. And the vacuum worlds aren't penalised too much either. But the B and C atmospheres should definitely have big penalties to population because there is always going to be somewhere better to live in a system, even if it's a space station.

1st, because it's possible (maybe even likely) that populations up to the millions could (and will) live on totally non-habitable worlds. Why? Because once you get past a couple generations you develop a local identity, and that is part of habitation patterns. So long as the basic needs (Food, water, atmosphere, stimulation) are met, people will live there.

People lived in various catacombs.

I'm not averse to "Roll twice, keep lower" for pop when Atm is outside 4-9 (breathable)... or even, "4d keep lowest 2" kinds of modes.

But plain and simple, Traveller is Space Opera... and as a genre, that includes the hive worlds, dome habs, and other types of high density high population enclave that are "unlikely" by some peoples view points.

Examples:

• Vulcan in Sten, a size 1 world long since buried under the industrial complex that grew up over it. Population somewhere around a million.
• Venus and Mars colonies from Jovian Chronicles - both present due to terraforming efforts, and both in the 10E7 range.
• Mars colonies in Babylon 5
• Mars in Total Recall
• Cloud City on Bespin, from Star Wars

They may not be realistic, but the system has to allow for them, as they are expected.

Which is why I'm for skewing but not single die nor simple die-roll mods for mature settings, where a group could have been living on such a rockball for a thousand+ years... and could easily be into the millions.

By the same token, however, virgin turf should have no pop on uninhbitable worlds. Which means pointing out that i is an area where house-rules can and should be pointed out, and then point out that the OTU was generated with straight 2d6-2.

As for B & C, no, I disagree. It is entirely possible that no other worlds exist, or that there is some reason the world is being inhabited.

Then again, Orbital populations DO COUNT towards a world in canon.