# Things that are broken from CT book 3 worldgen

Looking forward to your version Cap'n!

Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
1. Roll Size (SIZ) 2D-2
Size is measured in Kilometers and is the RADIUS of the world (different than CT).

As you pointed out, this would screw with compatibility with older UWPs.

2. Roll Atmosphere (HYD): 2D-7+SIZ
If SIZ 1-: ATM=0
If Size 2: ATM 1- only is allowed (reduce any higher rolls to 1)
Definitions are per CT with the added atmospheres from Book 6 (except maybe for E per discussions here).

This still produces atmospheres that worlds shouldn't have. If anything I'd recommend a separate (shorter) table for the worlds that are size 3 or 4 that only has results of 0, 1, or A. Otherwise what I described earlier about atmospheres should apply.

For any roll of exactly 12: ATM=B (Not A like in Book 6)

This really isn't necessary (I also got rid of the roll of 12 = A roll as well).

4. Roll Population (POP): 1D
DMs: ATM 1-: -2
ATM: 4, 7, 9: +4
ATM 5, 6, 8: +5
ATM B+: -2
If you roll exactly a 6, ignore above DMs and roll POP = 2D-2

I think in my version I had 2d-2 with modifiers for atm. Not as extreme as yours - +2 for 5/6/8, -1 for 4/7/9/D/F, -2 for 0/1/2/3/A/B, -4 for C.

This is what I did for starports:

Code:
``````     ------Population------
2D   0    1-4    5-7    8-A

2    E     C      B      A
3    E     D      B      A
4    E     D      C      A
5    E     D      C      B
6    X     D      C      B
7    X     D      C      B
8    X     E      C      B
9    X     E      D      B
10   X     E      D      C
11   X     E      D      C
12   X     E      D      C

Main: no DM.
Border: shift starport type down by 1 (i.e. A to B, B to C etc - E is lowest*)
Backwater: shift starport type down by 2 (i.e. A to C, B to D, etc - E is lowest*)
If pop 0 and mult 1+, then starport is automatically E.

*: unless pop is 0 and mult is 0, in which case X is lowest.``````

A "Main" is a system that has at least two other systems in direct contact with the hex it's in.
A "Border" is if it has only one other system in direct contact with the hex it's in.
A "Backwater" is if the world has no other systems in contact with the hex that it's in.

This accounts for both location and population, and also means that the best starports are only found at the highest pop worlds (which is what you'd expect).

I'd say any roll of 12 with an end result below 12 should be randomized between A, B and C. Not bad, and I have often considered just such a rescale to Size=Radius(in Mm) as you have used.

It seems to fit fairly well with EDG's notes.

And as far as invlaidating stuff, any tweaking with UWP's will do that. Badly.

If we're going to go that route, and earth is a size six, why not separate pressure and mix.

SP-SzPrMxHyPoGoLl-TL
one code longer, so it's clear which is being described as well.

Sz as above.
Hyd off size
Pres= 3DF+Size making 1Atm=6, put 5=.75, 4=.5, 3=.25, 2=.1, 1=.01
Composition 3DF+Press
6 woudl by nitrogen based with oxygen... work from there with minimum weight retention 11 is Helium, 12+ is Hydrogren (Gas Giant, anyone?)

AKAramis said:
I'd say any roll of 12 with an end result below 12 should be randomized between A, B and C. Not bad, and I have often considered just such a rescale to Size=Radius(in Mm) as you have used.

The problem is that it's just not needed at all. The only reason it's in the book 6 tables at all is as a kludge to explain Titan. If you have a dedicated table for smaller worlds though (possibly with modifiers for orbital zone) then those results can be in that instead.

EDIT: assuming you're talking about the atmosphere roll...? Or are you referring to something else?

Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
Since ATM E is nonsense as you say, perhaps we could come up with an alternate definition?

How about Extremely Dense - in the sense of Venus or even denser? NOT breathable at all and at sea level, the air is almost liquid.

Niven (I think) wrote a short story about such a world where the atmosphere merged into the liquid ocean. Think of an atmosphere that is ALMOST Gas Giant in nature.

Other suggestions?

I'd shunt the current (Thin, Low) atm F into the E slot, and then call F "Panthalassic", which is a world of about 3 earth masses, covered with a hundreds of km thick ocean and a thick (probably unbreathable) atmosphere of N2/O2 and CO2.

If we can keep the UWPs sizes in miles (it may sound odd coming from me, but I prefer them in miles - it's more granular than km, which gets too big too quickly) and expand up to C (12), then we can get atm G and H too, which could be "Superdense" (really dense atm (> 1000 atm), not hydrogen though) and "Subgiant" (really dense, 1000s of km thick hydrogen atmosphere, almost an SGG).

EDG said:
- law levels, gov types, and atm types not present for all poss

I'm interested in fixing this. Is the problem of being able to get what you consider totally 'opposite' law/gov't levels? Do you feel that these have good options but we need another stat to describe something else? Did I miss what you are thinking entirely?

Seriously, this is something I'm very interested in.

ParanoidGamer said:
EDG said:
- law levels, gov types, and atm types not present for all poss

I'm interested in fixing this. Is the problem of being able to get what you consider totally 'opposite' law/gov't levels? Do you feel that these have good options but we need another stat to describe something else? Did I miss what you are thinking entirely?

Seriously, this is something I'm very interested in.

I'd honestly recommend sticking to the planetology stuff at this point. Being number and observation driven, Its much easier to get to implementation (ie write a table) than the sociological stuff which requires a fair amount of thrashing with less of a quantitative flail to use.

"go not to the social scientists for advice , for they will say both yes and no, and point out that your initial premise is flawed, and that your time is up"

Cap
Marquis d'Remulak, Sol 1833 (KOD)

captainjack23 said:
EDG said:
- law levels, gov types, and atm types not present for all poss

I'd honestly recommend sticking to the planetology stuff at this point. Being number and observation driven, Its much easier to get to implementation (ie write a table) than the sociological stuff which requires a fair amount of thrashing with less of a quantitative flail to use.[/quote]

I'm just looking at what EDG pointed out, that interests me, and as he said... you don't fix one part and leave the rest broken... half-broken is still broken.

besides, even if it doesn't get into the core book, they are doing a high-guard book so it can be used later...

EDG said:
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
Since ATM E is nonsense as you say, perhaps we could come up with an alternate definition?

How about Extremely Dense - in the sense of Venus or even denser? NOT breathable at all and at sea level, the air is almost liquid.

Niven (I think) wrote a short story about such a world where the atmosphere merged into the liquid ocean. Think of an atmosphere that is ALMOST Gas Giant in nature.

Other suggestions?

I'd shunt the current (Thin, Low) atm F into the E slot, and then call F "Panthalassic", which is a world of about 3 earth masses, covered with a hundreds of km thick ocean and a thick (probably unbreathable) atmosphere of N2/O2 and CO2.

If we can keep the UWPs sizes in miles (it may sound odd coming from me, but I prefer them in miles - it's more granular than km, which gets too big too quickly) and expand up to C (12), then we can get atm G and H too, which could be "Superdense" (really dense atm (> 1000 atm), not hydrogen though) and "Subgiant" (really dense, 1000s of km thick hydrogen atmosphere, almost an SGG).

So: A Exotic
B Corrosive
C Insidious
D Dense,High
E Thin, Low
F Panthalassic

I have to say I've always felt that Dense High and Thin Low are overkill/redundant. It seems that they could well be characteristic of any high density or Low density World.

Also, Should the A factor Exotic be qualified as a dense atm and the A result for a small world a thin or trace exotic ?

Perhaps for the small worlds, 1d6 -7 + size ? With a cutoff of size 4 ?
max atmos would then be 3(thin/taint) (which could describe titanby stretching), with a treat as exotic note, perhaps, 0 and 1 have a guaranteed 0 atmos, with 2 &3 mostly having 0.

Cap

ParanoidGamer said:
captainjack23 said:
ParanoidGamer said:
I'm interested in fixing this. Is the problem of being able to get what you consider totally 'opposite' law/gov't levels? Do you feel that these have good options but we need another stat to describe something else? Did I miss what you are thinking entirely?

Seriously, this is something I'm very interested in.

I'd honestly recommend sticking to the planetology stuff at this point. Being number and observation driven, Its much easier to get to implementation (ie write a table) than the sociological stuff which requires a fair amount of thrashing with less of a quantitative flail to use.

I'm just looking at what EDG pointed out, that interests me, and as he said... you don't fix one part and leave the rest broken... half-broken is still broken.

besides, even if it doesn't get into the core book, they are doing a high-guard book so it can be used later...

Well, without starting a fight, the social stuff is way more subjective. Trust me on this one, its closest to my field. One can, for instance, come up with just as a reasonable an explanation for inhabited vacuum worlds as arguments against....and here we honestly have NO data beyond applying limited data on earth societies or making it up......

Also, I'll bet you meant "Scouts" rather than high guard , no ?

Plus, I think I have the quoting fixed....

Cap

no argument... just something I'm interested in... I have ideas, opinions here and since it's part of what's broken, I would like to contribute to something I'm interested in... (system/world gen is a tool I use and like, but I don't have a background in all that, Mine is computers... education.. networking and systems analysis).

besides, I really would like to hear from EDG on what is thoughts are BEFORE you (or anyone) just shuts down the idea because of whatever... if it needs a diff thread then we make one... but the original post is in this thread so let EDG answer...

ParanoidGamer said:
no argument... just something I'm interested in... I have ideas, opinions here and since it's part of what's broken, I would like to contribute to something I'm interested in... (system/world gen is a tool I use and like, but I don't have a background in all that, Mine is computers... education.. networking and systems analysis).

besides, I really would like to hear from EDG on what is thoughts are BEFORE you (or anyone) just shuts down the idea because of whatever... if it needs a diff thread then we make one... but the original post is in this thread so let EDG answer...

Actually, my only concern is that the sociology worldgen stuff will bury the planetology stuff - sorry if I seemed dismissive or..um...shut downish ?

Still, I don't think you need worry about him replying ,if he wants to.... :wink:

Cap

captainjack23 said:
So: A Exotic
B Corrosive
C Insidious
D Dense,High
E Thin, Low
F Panthalassic

I have to say I've always felt that Dense High and Thin Low are overkill/redundant. It seems that they could well be characteristic of any high density or Low density World.

Technically 1 is overkill, because that's just a super-thin Exotic.
D and (CT's) F are sufficiently different though. D is compositionally breathable but too high pressure to breathe (pressure is too high for atm 8/9), and F is a thin (atm 5) atmosphere that settles into the lowlands so that large chunks of planet are actually vacuum or trace or very thin.

Also, Should the A factor Exotic be qualified as a dense atm and the A result for a small world a thin or trace exotic ?

It's just "A" for these purposes. It can be any pressure otherwise (but then you get back to whether or not there's really a point to atm 1. I guess A is any pressure higher than "trace")

Perhaps for the small worlds, 1d6 -7 + size ? With a cutoff of size 4 ?
max atmos would then be 3(thin/taint) (which could describe titanby stretching), with a treat as exotic note, perhaps, 0 and 1 have a guaranteed 0 atmos, with 2 &3 mostly having 0.

size 0,1, and 2 have atm 0, period (if in the hab zone).
size 3 and 4 are the ones that can be trace/exotic. Though size 4 is really annoying... it's massive enough (at earth density) to hold oxygen and nitrogen, but not massive enough to hold water vapour. Which should mean that over geological timescales it'll lose its water, which means it won't have life to produce oxygen. And more often than not size 4 worlds will have less than earth density because they're smaller... and if they get down to Mars density then they can't hold N2 or O2 either. So I'm just simplifying that down to "size 4 can't have habitable atmospheres".

I think in the hab zone size 3 and 4 worlds are most likely to have atm 0, 1, or A. They'll be mars-like at best, basically.

Remember that atm 2 or 3 is not an option for size 3 or 4 worlds, because they involve oxygen (just very little of it, or at very low pressure).

EDG said:
D and (CT's) F are sufficiently different though. D is compositionally breathable but too high pressure to breathe (pressure is too high for atm 8/9), and F is a thin (atm 5) atmosphere that settles into the lowlands so that large chunks of planet are actually vacuum or trace or very thin.

I guess what I'm asking is if they really are needed given that (say) any thin atmos planet can have breathable pressure if there's a deep enough hole (as it were); same argument for an unbreathably dense O2atmosphere (counts as A ,I guess) and a Taaaaaaall mountain.

One could argue, I suppose that the atmos code represents the most habitable spot rather than the general description - but that is the criteria that burned Larry Niven's colonists once or twice. And, I believe gave us D,E and F atmospheres.

size 0,1, and 2 have atm 0, period (if in the hab zone).
size 3 and 4 are the ones that can be trace/exotic. Though size 4 is really annoying... it's massive enough (at earth density) to hold oxygen and nitrogen, but not massive enough to hold water vapour. Which should mean that over geological timescales it'll lose its water, which means it won't have life to produce oxygen.

And thus we have all the canals the ruined cities, and the nomadic four-armed savages ? Huh ? What ??? WHAT ?
[luke sywalker mode= on]
NOOOOOO ! That's...NOT POSSIBLE [skywalker =off]

And more often than not size 4 worlds will have less than earth density because they're smaller... and if they get down to Mars density then they can't hold N2 or O2 either. So I'm just simplifying that down to "size 4 can't have habitable atmospheres".

I think in the hab zone size 3 and 4 worlds are most likely to have atm 0, 1, or A. They'll be mars-like at best, basically.

Okay, back to saneworld from barsoom :wink: , I see that for smaller planets the hab zone is important for more than life. The effect is the interaction of planetary gravity and heat causing gas boil-off. The effect would get worse closer in (more heat =less atmosphere), and would potentially effect larger planets, correct ?

Remember that atm 2 or 3 is not an option for size 3 or 4 worlds, because they involve oxygen (just very little of it, or at very low pressure).
Hmm, right. Forgot that it was specific to O2 at all levels.

captainjack23 said:
I guess what I'm asking is if they really are needed given that (say) any thin atmos planet can have breathable pressure if there's a deep enough hole (as it were); same argument for an unbreathably dense O2atmosphere (counts as A ,I guess) and a Taaaaaaall mountain.

Nope, because atm 4/5 works because it doesn't have a deep enough hole for all the atmosphere to settle (and more to the point, F is specific to large planet, so it works where it is at the high end of the atm table). And (a) atm D has oxygen whereas atm A doesn't, and (b) atm D is an extension of atm 8/9 - by implication, atm 8/9 don't have a point on their surfaces where the air becomes toxic due to pressure, but atm D does (which is what makes it distinct).

Okay, back to saneworld from barsoom :wink: , I see that for smaller planets the hab zone is important for more than life. The effect is the interaction of planetary gravity and heat causing gas boil-off. The effect would get worse closer in (more heat =less atmosphere), and would potentially effect larger planets, correct ?

Basically, yes. But larger planets are harder to strip the atmosphere from than smaller ones, which are almost invariably going to have very little (if any) atmosphere in the inner zone.

Ok so the law/government parts of world gen are nice, but only for systems with a unified/consolidated world govt and who says they all have to be that way? What about a world where there are separate nations, separate law levels and govt types? How do we reflect that?

Other than that I think the current codes work pretty well since a huge majority of worlds/systems in the game can be classified using the codes provided.

Outside of the problem with assuming every planet has a unified planetary govt, the system works fine.

The point to atmosphere 1 versus 0 is wind, EDG. Wind makes a huge difference in rock formation.

As you pointed out*, Mars runs in the Trace range (Martian surface ranges 6-10 mBar, and 1013mBar=1Atm), and the wind is profound in the environment.

Actually, by the MT definitions, the breakpoint for very thin is 0.1Atm, about 10x that of mars' 0.01Atm. (MT Ref's page 22.)

*years ago

Outside of the problem with assuming every planet has a unified planetary govt, the system works fine.

I had to dig out book 3 to double check the TNE version, but you're looking for gov code 7, Balkanization: "No central ruling authority exists, rival governments compete for for control."

So, going back to our Core Book idea, atmosphere could be modeled like this?

SIZ 1-: ATM=0
SIZ 2-4: Roll 1D on table below:
Code:
``````Roll  ATM
1    0
2    0
3    0
4    1
5    1
6    A``````

SIZ 5+: Roll 2D-7+SIZ (like the old system)

Does that work?

Does everyone think it meets the QUICK AND SIMPLE rule as well?

Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
So, going back to our Core Book idea, atmosphere could be modeled like this?

SIZ 1-: ATM=0
SIZ 2-4: Roll 1D on table below:
Code:
``````Roll  ATM
1    0
2    0
3    0
4    1
5    1
6    A``````

SIZ 5+: Roll 2D-7+SIZ (like the old system)

Does that work?

Does everyone think it meets the QUICK AND SIMPLE rule as well?

Again, this all assumes the world is in the habitable zone, but that roughly works - the only correction being that if it's size 2- then it's atm 0. So the table only applies to size 3-4. So:

size 1 will get atm 0
size 2 will get atm 0
size 3 will get atm 0,1, or A
size 4 will get atm 0,1, or A
size 5 will get atm 0-A
size 6 will get atm 1-B
size 7 will get atm 2-C
size 8 will get atm 3-D
size 9 will get atm 4-E
size A will get atm 5-F

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