Yes. Not quoting the picture, but there does exist a theoretically possible ship configuration which would result in a jump bubble roughly like that, minus the nose.
The new Starship Operator's Manual is here!
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Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
No, what I am saying you are ignoring basic physics and not even handwaving it. You can not move waste heat from the ship at 290K into a plasma at 200,000K, it is a physical impossibility and there is no space magic technology that could be used to explain how you are breaking thermodynamics.
To cool the plasma waste requires more coolant than all the liquid hydrogen power plant fuel you are carrying. If you are venting the hot waste plasma to space then you still have the problem of removing the waste heat in the ship - you can not move waste heat from cold to hot.
There are two ways to remove waste heat -
1 - radiate it (my proposal is to radiate it into the gravitics field that is coupled via space magic to an external field that interacts with the gravitics field - backgound gravitational waves, gravity wells etc. - this requires no additional magic items
There is only one canonical reference to a radiator fin in CT.
2 - heat something up inside the ship - a heat sink. Trouble is the only heat sink you have is the liquid hydrogen that you can't use as a heat sink for long before the hydrogen evaporates, pressure builds up, and your ship explodes.. There is the possibility of adding a gravitc heat sink (in MT high TL coldberth used gravitics to freeze the occupant) but that requires adding a system that has never appeared in any version to date.
Gravitics - technologies that interact via the gravitcs field coupling with an external gravitational field, including the universal .gravitational wave background. These technologies include artificial gravity plates, acceleration compensators, grav modules, lifters, and the maneuver drive. The coupling allows ships to radiate energy as gravitational waves and so has the additional use as a heat sink.
To cool the plasma waste requires more coolant than all the liquid hydrogen power plant fuel you are carrying. If you are venting the hot waste plasma to space then you still have the problem of removing the waste heat in the ship - you can not move waste heat from cold to hot.
There are two ways to remove waste heat -
1 - radiate it (my proposal is to radiate it into the gravitics field that is coupled via space magic to an external field that interacts with the gravitics field - backgound gravitational waves, gravity wells etc. - this requires no additional magic items
There is only one canonical reference to a radiator fin in CT.
2 - heat something up inside the ship - a heat sink. Trouble is the only heat sink you have is the liquid hydrogen that you can't use as a heat sink for long before the hydrogen evaporates, pressure builds up, and your ship explodes.. There is the possibility of adding a gravitc heat sink (in MT high TL coldberth used gravitics to freeze the occupant) but that requires adding a system that has never appeared in any version to date.
Gravitics - technologies that interact via the gravitcs field coupling with an external gravitational field, including the universal .gravitational wave background. These technologies include artificial gravity plates, acceleration compensators, grav modules, lifters, and the maneuver drive. The coupling allows ships to radiate energy as gravitational waves and so has the additional use as a heat sink.
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Why not just transfer excess heat directly into a different form of energy with 100% efficiency? Say from thermal to electrical? I know that that is basically impossible today, but theorical physics has already described the process, We just have no idea how to actually do it yet. What We can do today is change thermal energy to electrical energy at an efficiency of about 35%. It seems reasonable to Me that with greater scientific understanding and great technical knowhow, 100% Energy Conversion Efficiency is a very real possibility with Traveller technology.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Thermal energy to electrical is doable, it is called thermoelectric generation. It is not very efficient and never can be. IR photons lack the energy to knock about electrons very much.
We are not discussing thermal energy, we are discussing waste heat. Waste heat and thermal energy are different things. 100% efficiency? Nope.
We are not discussing thermal energy, we are discussing waste heat. Waste heat and thermal energy are different things. 100% efficiency? Nope.
Any time you are presented with a non-trivial working system and believe the description you have been given is a physical impossibility, you can usually assume that you have misunderstood part of the explanation. Just bluntly and repeatedly declaring that it is impossible never helps. Instead, point out how you think it works and the contradiction therein, then ask where you have misunderstood. If it truly is impossible, the presenter will have overlooked the contradiction, or something equivalent.
In this case, you are thinking of just transferring heat from a colder object to a hotter object with no other steps involved. That is not what is happening.
Change the plasma's pressure and volume, and you can change its temperature. Drop it to under 290K (or whatever the ship's temperature is), which may turn it from a plasma to a gas. Transfer heat in. If you then return to the former pressure and volume (becoming a plasma once more), the coolant would be at over 200,000K; this may or may not be done before releasing the coolant to space. This is similar in principle to, if much greater in scale than, modern refrigerators - so, literally, saying you can't do this even in principle is saying that refrigerators don't work.
SOM speaks of using helium (made via fusion from hydrogen), but otherwise this is the method, releasing the helium before it would rupture containment. The helium (hydrogen) does thus effectively evaporate over time: this is represented by the rate of fuel usage by the power plant.
Perhaps you may think this usage rate is impossibly small for the volume of waste heat removed. That, I confess to handwaving as "the magical efficiency of high technology", but we had to take High Guard's numbers as canon and work from there. If that is your quibble, I must defer to authors who went well before we did. I can offer a partial explanation, though: gravitic containment undoubtedly increases the maximum pressure (and thus temperature) that can be contained in a given volume, increasing how efficient this process can be, but there's still a finite limit.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
We are also not discussing how things would change if you have advanced control of the system at the quantum level. Maybe it can't impart much to an electron, but to an even smaller particle, perhaps. We have no idea currently how many particles smaller than an electron even exist, so there is no way that anyone on here can tell Me how particles that We haven't even discovered or theorized of yet, may or may not behave. We do not yet have the understanding to know if that is even possible or not, so for game purposes, We just havewave it and assume that it is not only possible, but actually being used in starships throughout Charted Space... lol.
Bense
Cosmic Mongoose
Sorry I'm a bit late to this party, but I didn't read through the book until I got my physical copy a few weeks ago.
I love this book! Lots of personality in the writing, lots my favorite bits from the DGP version carried over, and Sgt. Floofy.
I think you all did a great job in putting together a lot of the lore of the last 50 years into something that hangs together pretty well.
I loved the walkthroughs, but I got a bit confused that the last few seemed to have keys for illustrations that aren't there. Like the "Mission Support" section shows entries for "Animal only" ("frozen meat" is one example) and "Suleiman Only" ("fabricator cabinet") but the only illustration in the section is of the low berths for the Empress Marava. Were there other illustrations that were originally intended to be included?
All in all, a great book that I very much enjoyed reading and that gave me a few ideas to spring on my players.
I love this book! Lots of personality in the writing, lots my favorite bits from the DGP version carried over, and Sgt. Floofy.
I think you all did a great job in putting together a lot of the lore of the last 50 years into something that hangs together pretty well.
I loved the walkthroughs, but I got a bit confused that the last few seemed to have keys for illustrations that aren't there. Like the "Mission Support" section shows entries for "Animal only" ("frozen meat" is one example) and "Suleiman Only" ("fabricator cabinet") but the only illustration in the section is of the low berths for the Empress Marava. Were there other illustrations that were originally intended to be included?
All in all, a great book that I very much enjoyed reading and that gave me a few ideas to spring on my players.
I was just reading about starship laser weapons. I've always wondered if there was an official stance on the laser being in the visible light spectrum. Can a naked eye see these streaks of light (brilliant lances, TNE called them) zipping through the cosmos, maybe captured on ship's passive sensors.
The SOM doesn't discuss it, and I suppose both versions, visible and non-visible to the naked eye are possible.
I do have another point of discussion, though. The SOM mentions lasers (continuous beam) and pulse lasers (broken beam). I don't know how long a MGT ship combat round is, but in CT, it's 1000 seconds. I'm assuming the MGT ship combat round is the same or similar.
1000 seconds is over 15 minutes--almost 17 seconds.
So, with a standard beam laser on a ship, firing at a target, say, 50,000 km away, am I to think that a solid laser beam shoots out at its enemy for a full 15+ minutes, scratching around the sky, trying to connect with a target speck not visible to the human eye?
It just seems kinda weird thinking of this impossibly long line of light and the combat game is to put the light on the very, very, very small target.
I remember reading in one of the Traveller editions--I think it was T4--that lasers fire hundreds of times per minute, but that doesn't seem to be the case described in the SOM; one solid beam of visible or non-visible light pivoting out from a ship, moving continuously to try to connect.
Also, the laser beam moves at the speed of light, but when you're talking 50,000 km, there is some delay that defends can take advantage of. There's laser travel time and human input response time.
The SOM doesn't discuss it, and I suppose both versions, visible and non-visible to the naked eye are possible.
I do have another point of discussion, though. The SOM mentions lasers (continuous beam) and pulse lasers (broken beam). I don't know how long a MGT ship combat round is, but in CT, it's 1000 seconds. I'm assuming the MGT ship combat round is the same or similar.
1000 seconds is over 15 minutes--almost 17 seconds.
So, with a standard beam laser on a ship, firing at a target, say, 50,000 km away, am I to think that a solid laser beam shoots out at its enemy for a full 15+ minutes, scratching around the sky, trying to connect with a target speck not visible to the human eye?
It just seems kinda weird thinking of this impossibly long line of light and the combat game is to put the light on the very, very, very small target.
I remember reading in one of the Traveller editions--I think it was T4--that lasers fire hundreds of times per minute, but that doesn't seem to be the case described in the SOM; one solid beam of visible or non-visible light pivoting out from a ship, moving continuously to try to connect.
Also, the laser beam moves at the speed of light, but when you're talking 50,000 km, there is some delay that defends can take advantage of. There's laser travel time and human input response time.
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Cosmic Mongoose
No. The laser is a beam of light with all the light moving in the same direction. Without something (atmosphere typically) to scatter the light you can't see it from any direction other than the beam hitting you in the eye (for a weapon blinding you and burning a hole through your skull so the sight is very short). Movies/TV shows with lasers used in space show you what can't be seen and make sound effects that wouldn't propagate for theatrics.
shirgall
Banded Mongoose
You see the effect of the laser beam on the target, but if that target was far away, your round trip time goes up:
Range Distance Round-Trip Light Delay
Adjacent ≤ 1 km up to ~7 μs
Close 1 – 10 km ~7 μs – 70 μs
Short 11 – 1,250 km ~70 μs – 8 ms
Medium 1,251 – 10,000 km ~8 ms – 67 ms
Long 10,001 – 25,000 km ~67 ms – 167 ms
Very Long 25,001 – 50,000 km ~167 ms – 333 ms
Distant ≥ 50,000 km ≥ 333 ms
In a six minute round, not a lot of difference, but it's a good reason that maneuvers throw off lasers at seemingly close distance. At moon distance over two and half seconds, at 100 diameters over eight seconds.
Range Distance Round-Trip Light Delay
Adjacent ≤ 1 km up to ~7 μs
Close 1 – 10 km ~7 μs – 70 μs
Short 11 – 1,250 km ~70 μs – 8 ms
Medium 1,251 – 10,000 km ~8 ms – 67 ms
Long 10,001 – 25,000 km ~67 ms – 167 ms
Very Long 25,001 – 50,000 km ~167 ms – 333 ms
Distant ≥ 50,000 km ≥ 333 ms
In a six minute round, not a lot of difference, but it's a good reason that maneuvers throw off lasers at seemingly close distance. At moon distance over two and half seconds, at 100 diameters over eight seconds.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Laser ranges in Traveller are totally made up. You can actually use real physics to calculate laser ranges, beam diffusion, area of effect, energy transfer per square metre that sort of thing.
here we go down the rabbit hole:
www.projectrho.com
here we go down the rabbit hole:
Beam Weapons - Atomic Rockets
As a patch, you can always say that the displays the characters are viewing the space battle on are enhanced to show the pew pews. They'd not see anything looking out the window except nearby explosions and *maybe* some faint, slowly moving dots. Noises added to help orient the crew and to mask out the incessant racket of their own ship.
*Plasma* bolts, on the other hand are totally visible. But they don't move at lightspeed either.
*Plasma* bolts, on the other hand are totally visible. But they don't move at lightspeed either.
So true. What's visual range using the MK I eyeball? I think I saw something in CT saying that its 10,000 km, which is very, very short range for Traveller. All the PCs normally see is what they see on their scopes and equipment. Traveller space combat really is more like submarine warfare.
Plus, we're always looking at Traveller through today's tech knowledge, which is not incorrect. But, we also should leave room for the plausible due to future tech. Or the realistically implausible (like Jump drive) but acceptable space opera.
A handwave like this: Light particles are engineered to shed X so that lasers are visible in space. This would be akin to tracer ammunition included for heavy machine guns.
shirgall
Banded Mongoose
Technically that's "medium" range, but it's a lot farther than the "microns" in Battlestar Galactica. It means that eyeballs and therefore OODA may be useful at dogfighting range, though. Regardless, instrument flying, especially holographic, is probably far more effective at understanding engagements.
What? In Starter Traveller, it's one Range Band. I can be one hex. I think Brilliant Lances and Mayday use 30,000 km hexes. 10,000 km is pretty much contact range!
Is it that different in MGT?
shirgall
Banded Mongoose
Page 165 of the Core Rulebook "Space Combat" section, "Range Bands" table:
Range Distance
Adjacent ≤ 1 km
Close 1 – 10 km
Short 11 – 1,250 km
Medium 1,251 – 10,000 km
Long 10,001 – 25,000 km
Very Long 25,001 – 50,000 km
Distant ≥ 50,000 km
Bense
Cosmic Mongoose
It depends entirely on how big and bright the thing you're looking at is. The old Mk I can detect red supergiant stars from around 2,500 light years away.
The handwave used in The New Era was "gravitic focusing technology", but that was about increasing the range of laser weapons to make them viable weapons at the space combat ranges the designers wanted to use, not about making them visible to the naked eye.
Really you still shouldn't see any visible beams in a vacuum like space, whether or not the laser is firing at a wavelength in the visible spectrum. You might see a bright light at the turret as imperfections in the lens scatters some of the laser in a way that is visible out of the line of fire, and you'd see the light if the laser is aimed right at you. No visible beams connecting the firer to the target, though.
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
Given a sufficiently dark sky and time to adapt, MkI eyeball can detect the Andromeda Galaxy. I think I've also made out Triangulum.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
As long as it is in a visible frequency the eye can detect a single photon apparently. Such a photon could have been travelling since the big bang or not that long after if it started off energetic enough (extreme gamma red shifted to red - now there is a calculation to keep you busy).
