The minimum damage rule

[Trodax]

Hi!
In AE there is an optional rule for minimum damage (don't know if it was in the first printing). The rule states that a successful attack always deals at least 1 point of damage, regardless if it penetrates armour or not. This damage can be lethal or nonlethal, depending on the likes of the GM.

Have any of you used this rule? I think I like it, and am thinking of using it, but it would be nice to hear if it works well in play.

Seems to me that it would make multiple attacks a little more useful when compared to high damage attacks, as well as slightly downplaying the effectiveness of armour. Main problem I can see is that really wimpy attacks would still be able to do damage (like the 1d3 from an unarmed strike). A houserule could maybe be that the rule only applies to attacks with an AP of at least 1.

 

[Odovacar's Ghost]

We use it in our games.

1d3 + strength is not that bad. Also, I believe that was an optional rule. Once again, if you think it fits, use it. We do.

 

[Sutek]

I think a minimum damage could be the AP of the weapon, but applied as non-lethal damage. This makes this type of blow add up more quickly than 1 point at a time, but it's also relative to the weapon being used.

That's probably gonna be my house rule, but frankly, I'll have to see how it goes. Damage can be awfully brutal in Conan...

 

[Trodax]

I think a minimum damage could be the AP of the weapon, but applied as non-lethal damage. This makes this type of blow add up more quickly than 1 point at a time, but it's also relative to the weapon being used.

That sounds like it would weaken armour quite a bit, while still retaining the importance of those big, brutal, high-AP weapons. Guess this could be appropiate for some games.

Isn’t nonlethal damage a bit of a hassle to keep track of though? I’ve stayed mostly away from it in the games I’ve played, maybe it isn’t that bad. Do you count it separately from normal hit points?

 

[SableWyvern]

I've really only used non-lethal damage vs regenerating creatures, and in the event of fatigue. In both cases, it's never really been difficult to keep track of.

Lethal damage subtracts from hp. Non-lethal damage accrues seperately. When the two numbers are equal, the character is staggered, when the non-lethal exceeds remaining hp, the character is unconscious. Quite straightforward really, although I could see it causing difficulty if there were a lot of NPCs to keep track of.

I think Sutek's AP = minimum damage rule is a bit excessive. A low level character in full plate will quite possibly go down in one or two blows from a heavy weapon, where under the default rules he would be virtually unscathed.

 

[Sutek]

You just keep track of non-lethal damage the way you would HP. When it equals your current HP, you're Staggered. When it exceeds current HP, you're Stunned.

I started looking at the ramifications though and it is a bit excessive, especially at lower levels. If you get hit with a War Sword that doesn't penetrate your armor, it can do a maximum of 12pts plus Strength bonus, minus at least 4 for DR (because if DR were 3 it would have penetrated, right?) for a min/max total of 9pts lethal damage and 3pts non-lethal (with a resounding BWOONGGG!!!). Conversely, if it had penetrated, it would have been around the same theing at 11pts + STR lethal and 0pts non-lethal. In essence, you'd take more damage (although some of it non-lethal) if the armor works. :shock:

I'd be up for something more like this:

Weapon minimum damage = AP of weapon - DR as non-lethal damage.
After a number of rounds equal to CON bonus, player must make FORT save or take 1pt non-lethal damage from fatigue.

Complicated, but dangerous and probably fun.

 

[Mayhem]

I'm using a minimum of 1 point if the weapon has an armour piercing value of at least 1, otherwise the minimum is zero.

So unarmed attacks, missiles beyond a certain range (usually one increment, maybe more) and most primitive weapons can be reduced to zero damage by armour, but blows from most "civilised" weapons will always do a minimum of one.

 

[Trodax]

Lethal damage subtracts from hp. Non-lethal damage accrues seperately. When the two numbers are equal, the character is staggered, when the non-lethal exceeds remaining hp, the character is unconscious.

Yeah, thats pretty simple actually.

I'm using a minimum of 1 point if the weapon has an armour piercing value of at least 1, otherwise the minimum is zero.

So unarmed attacks, missiles beyond a certain range (usually one increment, maybe more) and most primitive weapons can be reduced to zero damage by armour, but blows from most "civilised" weapons will always do a minimum of one.

This sounds like a very reasonable way to go, I think I'll run it this way to. Think I'll just make that 1 point of damage lethal just to avoid the non-lethal stuff (even though it seems pretty easy to calculate :wink: ).

 

[sbarrie]

I started looking at the ramifications though and it is a bit excessive, especially at lower levels. If you get hit with a War Sword that doesn't penetrate your armor, it can do a maximum of 12pts plus Strength bonus, minus at least 4 for DR (because if DR were 3 it would have penetrated, right?) for a min/max total of 9pts lethal damage and 3pts non-lethal (with a resounding BWOONGGG!!!). Conversely, if it had penetrated, it would have been around the same theing at 11pts + STR lethal and 0pts non-lethal. In essence, you'd take more damage (although some of it non-lethal) if the armor works. :shock:

I'm not sure how that works.

The way I see it, if you have no strength bonus, then a warsword vs DR 4 would give you:

d12 -> damage
1 -> 3 nonlethal
2 -> 3 nonlethal
3 -> 3 nonlethal
4 -> 3 nonlethal
5 -> 1 lethal and 2 nonlethal
6 -> 2 lethal and 1 nonlethal
7 -> 3 lethal
8 -> 4 lethal
9 -> 5 lethal
10 -> 6 lethal
11 -> 7 lethal
12 -> 8 lethal

Average damage:

A warsword vs DR 2 would give you:
d12 -> damage
1 -> 3 nonlethal
2 -> 1 lethal and 2 nonlethal
3 -> 2 lethal and 1 nonlethal
4 -> 3 lethal
5 -> 4 lethal
6 -> 5 lethal
7 -> 6 lethal
8 -> 7 lethal
9 -> 8 lethal
10 -> 9 lethal
11 -> 10 lethal
12 -> 11 lethal

The better armour clearly reduces the average damage (4.25 vs 6).

 

[Sutek]

But this is what I meant:

d12 -> damage
1 -> 3 nonlethal
2 -> 3 nonlethal
3 -> 3 nonlethal
4 -> 3 nonlethal
5 -> 1 lethal and 3 nonlethal
6 -> 2 lethal and 3 nonlethal
7 -> 3 lethal and 3 nonlethal
8 -> 4 lethal and 3 nonlethal
9 -> 5 lethal and 3 nonlethal
10 -> 6 lethal and 3 nonlethal
11 -> 7 lethal and 3 nonlethal
12 -> 8 lethal and 3 nonlethal

Same versus the FR2 but the DR is halved due to weapon AP, but also, because the armor is penetrated, no non-lethal damage is calculated. See? That's what I'm suggesting. It makes it easier to knock someone unconcious that can resist the main damage from your attack but it also makes targets just as likely to drop as reducinf thier HP. Here's the lower DR:

A warsword vs DR 2 would give you:
d12 -> damage
1 -> 3 nonlethal (only because lethal dmg was reduced to zero)
2 -> 1 lethal
3 -> 2 lethal
4 -> 3 lethal
5 -> 4 lethal
6 -> 5 lethal
7 -> 6 lethal
8 -> 7 lethal
9 -> 8 lethal
10 -> 9 lethal
11 -> 10 lethal
12 -> 11 lethal

There's less non-lethal damage being inflicted, but the potential for lethal damage loss isn't increased dramatically. This reflects actual cuts as opposed to the bruising and concussive effects in the DR4 example above.

Oh, and don't ask me where I got the 9pts from - brain fart. (lol) Should be 8pts.

 

[sbarrie]

I see. Yeah, that does produce odd results.

So for your new way you only recieve nonlethal damage if your armour is pierced? And what happens to people with negative or zero Con modifiers?

I like the way I posted above of "add nonlethal damage until the total damage taken is equal to the weapon's AP". It's been suggested before, but I haven't tried it yet.

 

[Sutek]

Yeah, but really then the argument presents itself (at least to my mind) why dont' you take concussive, non-lethal damage each time? I mean, realistically you would, but 1pt doesnt' seem enough and "equal to AP" seems too much with the bigger weapons and it throws off the NLD versus HP loss ratio.

You also touched on zero or negative CON bonus, and since we're talking minimum weapon damage, I just figured CON bonus would be a buffer if present. In other words, take the d12 damag, AP 3 War Sword versus three differnt opponents wearing DR4 armor:

Opponent 1 (CON+2): lethal damage = 1, reduced by the +2 bonus.

Opponent 1 (CON+0): lethal damage = 3, not reduced by anything.

Opponent 1 (CON-1): lethal damage = 1, also not reduced by anything.

The rationalle being that if the character becomes either Stunned or Dying/Dead, he's got a FORT save coming and so CON is already factored in there - no need to double penalize him.

Problem is that becomes WAY too complicated a thing to record and keep track of and it'll slow the game down far too much.

One way could be that with every blow you take, you have to make a FORT save or take the weapon's AP value in Non-lethal damage. Weaklings with crappy CON will go down quick this way and be unconcious before they are dead. Not sure how realistic it is, but it's more in line with a cinematic approach. You know....pip-squeak gets nailed by the big brute and goes sailing accross the tavern, sliding under a table only to rouse later with the rest of the party kidnapped and he's the only one who can rescue them. (lol)

Okay...far fetched...

See, the think is that if you just take 1pt NL damage at a time, it's never going to ammount to a factor in the given fight unless you also take a LOT of HP damage, and then it's moot. If you use weapon AP, low level guys are gonna get knocked out a lot.

I actually think I like "make a FORT save" in a way, especially if it's to save from full AP damage being taken (STR+AP). However, maybe that's a new feat rather than a "minimum damage" rule. What if it was this:

Mighty Blow (General) -
Prerequisites: Power Attack, STR 13+, BAB +6
Benefit: You can swing your weapon with such force that you are sometimes capable of rendering foes unconcious or send them staggering with any give strike. Any time you deal damage, you force the target to make a FORT save versus your total AP (STR+AP) or suffer that much Non-lethal damage in addition to any other damage you just dealt with the blow. This does work with attacks that deal only Non-lethal damage, but not with attacks that do not apply STR to AP (like Finessed attacks or weapon with base AP0). This can only be applied to the initial (first) attack in a round of combat.

How's that?

 

[Mayhem]

Because what the DM really needs is to have to make a fort save for his NPCs every time this character lands a blow (which can can be several times a round).

 

[Sutek]

:roll:

...read it again mayhem...last sentance...

 

[Elfman]

:roll:

...read it again mayhem...last sentance...

"How's that?"

How does that clear anything up?

 

[Mayhem]

:lol:

 

[Sutek]

:roll:

...read it again mayhem...last sentance...

"How's that?"

How does that clear anything up?

Well, here's Mayhem's problem with it:
"Because what the DM really needs is to have to make a fort save for his NPCs every time this character lands a blow (which can can be several times a round)."

And here's the last sentance of my write up:
"This can only be applied to the initial (first) attack in a round of combat.

Can't be several times a round if it's only the first attack in a round where the strike can occur...now can it?

Admittedly, it should probably hard to pull off but a Full Attack Option in the first round of a combat isn't normally possible, or I'd have done that. First attack in any given round seemed a generous, round to round thing. First attack in any combat? After moving to engage? I mean, tell me you don't like it, but offer changes - don't just gripe. (lol)

Re-reading it again, the FORT DC is screwey and there's a syntax to it I don't like. Trying again:

Mighty Blow (General) -
Prerequisites: Power Attack, STR 13+, BAB +6
Benefit: You can swing your weapon with such force that you are sometimes capable of rendering foes unconcious or send them staggering with any give strike. Any time you deal damage in the initial round of combat, you force the target to make a FORT or suffer additional Non-lethal damage in on top of other damage dealt with that blow. The DC for the FORT save is the Attacker's STR bonus plus the AP of his weapon plus 10 (STR bonus + AP + 10). The additilan Non-lethal damage inflicted is equal to the STR bonus + AP. This does work with attacks that deal only Non-lethal damage, but not with attacks that do not apply STR to AP (like Finessed attacks or weapon with base AP0).

Better?