The Fifth Frontier War begins in two days

[Sigtrygg]

Geir - Also no specs for the Zhdits (or any other ships)... if that plays a future role, I should send along what I worked up for the Sky Raiders update so it matches any yet-to-be-released sourcebooks or adventures...

Certainly reads like one author being unaware of another author's development of the setting.

When are we getting the PC scale adventure stuff rather than MJD's re-write of the FFW from 1107 to 1110? Not to mention his changing IN doctrine as detailed in CT S:8 and the counters in FFW (boardgame).

I was expecting a bit more PC scale involvement rather than "here is what happens in the MgT ATU FFW", it reads like the worst bit of MT - here is what happens before the PCs can start getting involved.

How can there be no Shiva when it is the most likely antagonist to face a PC scale ship?

 

[AndrewW]

Is that a chapter or separate book?

Another book.

 

[Vormaerin]

Certainly reads like one author being unaware of another author's development of the setting.

When are we getting the PC scale adventure stuff rather than MJD's re-write of the FFW from 1107 to 1110? Not to mention his changing IN doctrine as detailed in CT S:8 and the counters in FFW (boardgame).

I was expecting a bit more PC scale involvement rather than "here is what happens in the MgT ATU FFW", it reads like the worst bit of MT - here is what happens before the PCs can start getting involved.

How can there be no Shiva when it is the most likely antagonist to face a PC scale ship?

Nah, its a lot better than MT, because you at least have a all the information up front. But, yeah, this book is not particularly actionable at the player level yet. There are a lot of other books coming out, though. The next one is supposedly an actual adventure. Hopefully the specific regional books will have more of the "what your players are doing" than just sidebars.

 

[G'Naakbusters]

Interesting, at a very quick first blush. This Norris is less "jowly".

Norris is like an orang-utan, he grows his jowls to indicate his superior position. Once he becomes Archduke, he will sport the full set (and appropriate facial hair).

 

[Geir]

Certainly reads like one author being unaware of another author's development of the setting.

I should have probably done that off-line - and it's not directly related to the war.

It does not appear to be an actual collision (despite the art), which actual makes sense, since the Zhdits turned out to be not very effective (according the FASA write-up of it, which I am following as best the design rules allow) so it is unlikely to figure in a main theatre of war - in the case of Sky Raiders, they are twice-hand-me down ships.

Sad about the Shivva, though, considering with the updated High Guard rules, you can make 8-tons fighters. And fighter with missiles actually have some reach... Of course the ship is sort of a 'micro carrier' which is an odd design choice - a missile bay might have been better use of the space, unless you're trying to interdict a large area with minimal resources.

 

[ottarrus]

Good ol' Sigtrygg... if it came out after High Guard it isn't canon and is therefore crap.
Seriously, bruh, if you know something isn't gonna meet with your approval, why buy it?

@Geir IIRC the Zhdits was a 4FW design that, um, 'performed somewhat less than expectations' [this is Pentagon-speak for 'it was an absolute disaster and guilty parties are cleaning out their desks as we speak']. The FASA notes on it has the class being pawned off onto client states as a heavy-ish patrol vessel and it's been otherwise been shunted off to interior security missions or knacker's yard. If one of them shows up on a PC ship's sensors, things have gotten seriously 'soggy' for the Zhos.
[I learned last year that the current generation of Army active duty types refers to 'went pear-shaped' or 'went Tango Uniform' as 'got soggy' nowadays]

 

[ColinD]

No, that will be getting it wrong - FFW and Ware Fleets were written by the same author (Martin is a busy beaver!).

I don't want to sound ignorant, and I know you are busy, but is FFW the book that just came out? Is War Fleets a previous or upcoming book?

 

[AndrewW]

I don't want to sound ignorant, and I know you are busy, but is FFW the book that just came out? Is War Fleets a previous or upcoming book?

The Fifth Frontier War is the book that just came out.

War Fleets of the Fifth Frontier War is an upcoming product.

 

[collins355]

So (as someone who hasn't bought it yet), this is just a fluff book by MJD with his version of the course of the war being the main theme?

I must admit, I'd been expecting something different first up, given all the noise about characters having agency and the war not being pre-determined.

 

[Vormaerin]

So (as someone who hasn't bought it yet), this is just a fluff book by MJD with his version of the course of the war being the main theme?

I must admit, I'd been expecting something different first up, given all the noise about characters having agency and the war not being pre-determined.

This is overview of the situation book. It has breakdowns of the opening campaigns in the various subsectors, discussion of various NPCs, factions, politics, etc. There are sidebars talking about what kinds of things PCs would be involved in in the various theaters, but this book is the high level overview of the situation. This is definitely not the player-centric part of the war story.

There are books on specific theaters coming out that presumably will drill down to the level players would actually be at, but obviously we don't have those yet. There are also some books specifically billed as 'adventures' in the line up.

From reading the book, it looks like they are going to have an early stage "this is what happens" that plays out and the "which way does it go" stuff seems designed for a couple years into the war. Like 1107-1109 is kind of scripted on the macro scale, and 1110+ is not.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Good ol' Sigtrygg... if it came out after High Guard it isn't canon and is therefore crap.
Seriously, bruh, if you know something isn't gonna meet with your approval, why buy it?

It does meet with my approval, I think it s a good book to set the scene, I just would prefer the opening book to have...
colins355 put it well

I must admit, I'd been expecting something different first up, given all the noise about characters having agency and the war not being pre-determined.

The whole of the FFW came out after High Guard 80

From what Matt has posted about making the FFW open ended and playable at the PC level I was looking forward to it. I still am if future supplements can deliver.

But this book does not deliver on the promise of a FFW where the referee and the players are involved, can make a difference, and the outcome is not set in stone.

 

[ColinD]

The Fifth Frontier War is the book that just came out.

War Fleets of the Fifth Frontier War is an upcoming product.

Thanks. I have the Navy book and will be buying FFW. I do have the Mongoose Sector Fleets book and had been using both of them for a game I was running.

 

[Studio Cat]

Sorry, no such luck.

* Sad Studio Cat Noises *

Welp, I guess I'll have to create my own Zhodani Shivva class then, but with......

 

[Sigtrygg]

Ce'lepina/Rhylanor (0610-B434456-81. Soon after landing, a local starport employee comments on the Shivva class patrol frigate in orbit above. Its gun muzzles are sealed and the ship is on a diplomatic mission carrying a Zhodani representative to Rhylanor. The locals here still hold memories of the False War and wish the ship on its way real soon.

The answer came a hundred years later, in the aftermath of a fringe skirmish of the False War (1082 to 1084). Naval patrol ships reconning the Treece system (Lanth subsector) found, and destroyed, a Shivva class patrol frigate (Zhodani, obviously) in the process of refuelling.

The most likely Zhodani vessel to be encountered is the Shivva class patrol frigate, either singly or in pairs.

Shivva Class Patrol Frigates:
Ubiquitous Zhodani Navy design most frequently encountered of the types deployed on and beyond the Consulate frontier districts.
The class is deployed on various independent picket, communications, and patrol duties, often well beyond Zhodani borders. The crew is known to include a Psionic Adept, who in addition to normal navigation duties is believed to augment the range and strength of a special communications system, which may explain the posting- Adepts are usually only assigned to capital classes of vessel.
Sample names (-va = light, thus Shivva = moonlight): Alekrva, Brnava, Doruva, Jadsva, Jirtodva, Loyhva, Mielrva, Shivva, Uturva.
FP-43676 Shivva FP-67424 F2-030000-50003-1 MCr493.87 600 tons
batteries bearing 3 1 1 TL=13
batteries 3 1 1 Crew=18 (incl 10 pilots)
Cargo=24.15. Fuel=264. EP=24. Agility=2. One 50-ton fuel launch. Ten 8-ton ftrs.

FM-43676.1 -.I0 Fighters FM-0106D21-000000-00003-0 MCr15.324 8 tons
One missile battery. Cargo=O. Fuel=1.04. EP=1.04. Agility=6. TL=13. Crew=l.

TY-43676.11 Shuttle TY-0202201-030000-20002-0 MCr13.52 50 tons
one battery each of laser, missile, and sandcasters TL=13. Crew=2.
Passengers=4. Cargo=5.5. Fuel=33. EP=l. Agility=O.

 

[Seffix]

From reading the book, it looks like they are going to have an early stage "this is what happens" that plays out and the "which way does it go" stuff seems designed for a couple years into the war. Like 1107-1109 is kind of scripted on the macro scale, and 1110+ is not.

Based on wild guesswork, I'm suspecting there will either be a collection of endgame books or an endgame book that covers multiple outcomes depending on how the players in a given campaign did.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, it is hard to tell whether this book is something I'd actually want to use at this point. I can see the purpose of this book and its well written, but whether it is worth having will depend on what else is released in the product line.

 

[phavoc]

The Imperium has its own escort vessel that hasn't done quite so well. Bring on the Zits! Err, Zhidts... Gotta wonder if the Imps on patrol like to pop some zits now and then. Lol!

From a wargaming perspective it would be better, I think, to have ships boiled down to off/def factors so that you could fight the war using the source materials. From my old SFB days you could fight out a handful of ships and manage their energy and such on a per-turn basis without bogging down too much. But for fleet actions it got tedious having to manage 10 ships worth of energy on your side and keep track of things. And fleet actions are really no place for players except at the command level - and that's really just moving your counters about.

From an RPG perspective little adventure-class ships (up to say 5k dtons) is about as big as you can affect on your own. That's where you'd want individual turrets and you can track missiles at the individual level. Maybe a bit more dice rolling, but definitely more hands on.

So FFW as a retelling of the war and at the strategic level works well for those who like the background and historical issues and then you can compliment that with things at the tactical level where groups actually can make a difference . Though if you are trying to insert adventures into the war some sort of decision tree would be needed if the adventure could possibly affect a battle, which could affect the overall path of the war. What's the point of being the hero at a critical juncture if the overall path remains the same? If the stakes are high the rewards should be, too. If the adventure portion made it so that you COULD literally affect things in the retelling that would make it more interesting as I see it. Everyone wants to be like like Kirk and beat the Kobyashi Maru test rather than always suffer ignominous defeat no matter how creative or inventive you might be.

 

[collins355]

The FFW boardgame had a whole section on roleplaying possibilities derived from the wargame. This is how that section starts...

 

[Sigtrygg]

Using the boardgame as a backdrop is very different to being told what happens and having no agency.

The FFW was the beginning of the end for Traveller.

GDW would pass the whole thing to another company who would come up with an even worse metaplot. they would publish an adjacent game T2300 (go and look at all the material available for GDW T2300/2300AD, it got as lot more than MT), until finally scrapping the setting and the rule system.

I have zero interest in MJDs thoughts on how the war started, how the Imperium completely changed their doctrine in five minutes, how the war was fought for three years before player agency can have an effect.

What I was hoping for was and still is:

why have the Zhodani invaded now (seriously if they are after the Rhylanor mcguffin then this is the worst way to go about it)

how can the sector admiralty know what is going on with a two to three month communication lag?

 

[OriginalCaruso]

I am struggling to see the need for FFW. I would much rather have books of transportable adventures and source materials with plot hooks, ideas and intrigue etc. I will buy the FFW books for both completeness and as a backdrop but I’m not expecting to deeply involve my players.

Having said all this, I dabble with Traveller and don’t have a deep engagement with the lore and history. I appreciate FFW layers ontop of what has gone before and is more relevant to others.

I am also time-poor so ready made adventures without requiring huge historical canon knowledge are more appealing to me.

What happens after FFW?