The Expert class for Conan?

[Sir Hackalot]

Hi,
I have been thinking what with the commoner class being used what do you think about the Expert class in D&D 3E. Would this class work as a class for craftsmen and merchant types? What are your thoughts?

 

[argo]

Why bother? My general rule of thumb is "If an NPC isn't important enough to be built on at least 25 points and with PC classes then he isn't important enough to have stats at all." IOW if your NPC blacksmith is a badass dude who, when the Picts come calling, will pick up his smithy hammer and help the PC's defend the town then make him a fourth level Soldier with max ranks in Craft [blacksmith]. If, on the other hand, he is just a guy who sells the PC's weapons and armor and maybe shares a rumor or two then why in god's name should you waste your time making a stat-block for him? You've got better things to do when preping for a game. If you absouetly must have something for this guy then do this:

Shopkeeper Balcksmith
Str 15 Dex 8 Con 13 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 12
Craft [blacksmith] +10, Appraise +8, Diplomacy +6, Sense Motive +4 Knolwedge [local] +6, Gather Info +4, Spot +4

There, your done. No need for combat stats, he isn't cool enough to participate in combat.

Now, with that being said, yes the Expert class should work OK for "regular folk" in Conan. Give the class an average Dodge and average Parry and the rest should take care of itself. If you absouetly must build a stat-block without using PC classes then I suggest expert rather than commoner. After what I wrote above you will no doubt be unsuprised to find that I loathe the Commoner class and disavow knolwedge of its existance.

Hope that helps.

 

[J-Star]

On the flipside, if you DON'T have a problem with the Commoner class, which I don't, just put skill points into the appropriate Craft or Professional skill and add the Skill Focus feat, and you're done.

 

[René]

I agree with argo: if your players don't fight with NPCs, you don't have to bother with detailed stats. Maybe I'm a little bit wishy washy, but it's been a long time I built a NPC beyond abilities and some exceptional stats (e.g. diplomacy for a merchant, craft xy for a craftsman).

And if I need an improvised NPC during game, I seldom need more than two or three stats - which I can improvise on the fly.

That is why I can't find any use for the detailed (non-fighting) NPCs in some CONAN-RPG books (e.g. Shadizar or Aquilonia): who needs the combat stats of a prostitute? Why is a 10th level apothecary a better fighter than his 1st level counterpart? Even against a 1st level soldier none of both has a chance...

Imho the space in CONAN-RPG books would be much better used for content than for stats.

But this is just my opinion and my style of play. And I think I hijacked this thread - sorry :wink:

 

[Raven Blackwell]

That is why I can't find any use for the detailed (non-fighting) NPCs in some CONAN-RPG books (e.g. Shadizar or Aquilonia): who needs the combat stats of a prostitute?

Or for that matter, who needs details on prostitution in a fantasy RP sourcebook. Such information is depressingly common enough knowledge.

Why is a 10th level apothecary a better fighter than his 1st level counterpart? Even against a 1st level soldier none of both has a chance...

:visions of dueling apothecarys attacking each other with mortar and pestle:

Imho the space in CONAN-RPG books would be much better used for content than for stats.

Very much so IMHO. I almost asked to have my money back on Shadizar. The only things of interest were in Book III- the monsters outside the city and the new race of Barbarians, yet less than a single page of details was we got on average for these things. Prostitues however got 2.5 pages and then tack on all the other entries about prostitution. [e.g Kidnappers, Brothel Keepers, Sex Cults] thats more than enough space to fill out the stuff players and GMs actually want and can use.

But this is just my opinion and my style of play. And I think I hijacked this thread - sorry :wink:

Well, let me get my shoe bomb and box cutter and I'll give you hand.....

Raven

 

[Odovacar's Ghost]

Some of us need the knowledge of prositution. I'm rather happy they kept the info in there.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Some of us need the knowledge of prositution. I'm rather happy they kept the info in there.

Hmm? I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I'd be happy to hear a description of how this is going to fit into a Conan campaign in a manner that the players will notice.

Raven

 

[J-Star]

Raven, I've read a few of your posts here and I completely respect your stance on issues like this.

That being said...

I don't yet have Shadizar but I do have Aquilonia and there are passages on prostitution in that book, and that's something I do appreciate. Why? Because it helps bring the setting to life. And bringing the setting to life helps the GM tell a better story, which provides the players with a deeper gaming experience.

That doesn't mean a passage on prostitution automatically gives players a deeper gaming experience, but I look at it as part of a bigger whole, bringing the world of the Hyborian Age to life, and that CAN potentially give players a deeper experience.

 

[Odovacar's Ghost]

Some of us need the knowledge of prositution. I'm rather happy they kept the info in there.

Hmm? I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I'd be happy to hear a description of how this is going to fit into a Conan campaign in a manner that the players will notice.

Raven

Nor am I, cause then you'd have a taste of my Pict slaying axe.

Nor do I really need to expand on my views for why Prostitutes are needed. Just think atmosphere.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Nor am I, cause then you'd have a taste of my Pict slaying axe.

Is that before or after the poison tipped arrows take effect? 8)

Nor do I really need to expand on my views for why Prostitutes are needed. Just think atmosphere.

:shrugs: Well, one of the major problems I have with fictional prostitution is that it 'cleans' up the rather horrible reality in the average person's mind. Prostitution is a state of near or actual slavery where the prostitute gets used up by a evil bastard and then usually dies horribly afterward. To make it more than this is to say that the people being used up are worth the jaded titilation of a pathetic man [or woman for that matter]. Personally, that humans the world over don't feel it is wrong inceases my opinion that mankind is by nature corrupt and thus an evolutionary failure. A view oddly enough shared by Howard interestingly.

Raven

 

[Diabolus]

I felt the need for the Expert class as well for Conan (I use the Conan rules for the Judge's Guild Wilderlands setting). I decided to "beef up" the Expert so that they excelled in a setting suitable to thier skills. I used the Cultural Characteristics of the Noble class as a model for an Expert's skill progression.

Note: In the Wilderlands a character is illiterate unless they have a feat or class ability that dictates otherwise, but the class is still fairly generic.

The Expert

Adventures: The Wilderlands are a populated by many people who must know a little about a lot of things to get by. The expert operates as a specialist, craftsman, or professional. The skilled smith, the alchemist, the ships captain, siege engineer, crafty merchant, and even skilled courtesan are all examples of experts.

Characteristics: The expert is the master of his area of knowledge. This class reflects that specialty and combines it with the bonuses in the area of dealing with patrons, customers and subordinates. Experts are a great resource of most communities and hosts of experts can be found with mercenaries in various armies in the Wilderlands acting as siege engineers, camp followers etc, although there are the rare experts who practice their art for their own benefit and travel the length of the Wilderlands to hone their skills.

Religion: Experts worship the gods accepted by their cultures in general, preferring those of crafts and trade or of their profession.

Backgrounds: Experts may come from just about anywhere, depending on their specialization. Most experts come from major metropolitan areas where they can practice their trade in relative safety and have a steady supply of patrons.

Game Rule Information
Abilities: The expert may of any race or sex, as all cultures value those who would specialize in a profession.

The abilities needed by most experts are Wisdom and Intelligence for learning important skills and learning how the profession works. However some professions (courtesan, athlete, as well as others) require more demanding physical characteristics such as Charisma, Constitution and Strength.

This class is not meant to be played to high levels and is capped at 10 levels. A character who has ten levels of expert can still multiclass.

Hit Die: d6

Class Skills
The expert can choose any ten skills to be class skills, of which at least one must be a Profession.

Skill Points at 1st Level: (6+Int Modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6+Int Modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the expert:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Experts are proficient with all Simple weapons and with light armor but no shields.

Expert Specialization: At 1st level the expert may select an expert path from the following list: Alchemist, Athlete, Concubine/Courtesan, Merchant, Sailor, Siege Engineer, and Smith. These common paths have a strong base of training opportunities to the right person and this ability provides a wealth of enrichment in related skills, represented by a steady increase in a Competence bonus for them as the table at the end of this section. An expert who chooses to not follow one of these common paths may select a bonus feat instead.

Literacy: At 1st level the expert attains the Literacy feat as a bonus feat. Even the hearth-focused smith or meanest harlot is expected to be able to follow written orders if a sack of silver comes with it. If the character already has the Literacy feat there is no additional gain.

Bonus Feat: The expert gains a feat from the following list: Skill Focus, Diligent, Persuasive, Knowledgeable, Experienced Merchant, Superior Weaponsmith, Superior Armourer, Negotiator, Navigation, Master of the Waves, Sea’s Breath, Unfurled Sails, Up the Rigging, Viper’s Speed, and Water Snake. The expert must meet any prerequisites.

Leadership: At 6th level the expert gains the Leadership feat for free, as his skills attract others in his chosen profession to learn from him. All followers will be experts in the same or related fields (GM’s discretion). If the character already has the Leadership feat he still gains the additional expert followers, but no new cohort.

The Expert
Level BAB DB PB MA Fort Ref Save Will Save Special
1 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +2 Expert Specialization +1, Literacy
2 +1 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 Bonus Feat
3 +2 +0 +0 +0 +1 +1 +3 Expert Specialization +2
4 +3 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +4 Bonus Feat
5 +3 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +4 Expert Specialization +3
6 +4 +1 +1 +1 +2 +2 +5 Leadership
7 +5 +1 +1 +1 +2 +2 +5 Bonus Feat
8 +6/+1 +2 +2 +2 +2 +2 +6 Expert Specialization +4
9 +6/+1 +2 +2 +2 +3 +3 +6 Bonus Feat
10 +7/+2 +2 +2 +2 +3 +3 +7 Expert Specialization +5



Expert Specialization
Alchemist
+1 Competence Bonus to Craft (herbalism) checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Craft (alchemy) checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Profession (herbalist) checks
Athlete
+1 Competence Bonus to Jump checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Balance checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Swim checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Grapple checks
Concubine/Courtesan
+1 Competence Bonus to Perform (dance) checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Perform (sexual techniques) checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Profession (courtesan) checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Sense Motive checks
Merchant
+1 Competence Bonus to Appraise checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Fast Talk checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Sense Motive checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Profession (merchant) checks
Sailor
+1 Competence Bonus to Profession (sailor) checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Swim checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Balance checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Climb checks
Siege Engineer
+1 Competence Bonus to Knowledge (warfare)
+1 Competence Bonus to Knowledge (architecture and engineering)
+1 Competence Bonus to Profession (carpenter) checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Profession (siege engineer) checks
Smith
+1 Competence Bonus to Craft (weaponsmith) checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Craft (armoursmith) checks
+1 Competence Bonus to Profession (blacksmith) checks

 

[Auggie]

Oddly enough, no time for prostitutes- too many Picts to slay.

 

[SableWyvern]

I found the section on prostitution in Shadizar was the one thing that really brought home the whole ethos and mood of Shadizar for me.

I was reading through it quite nonchalantly, when I paused to think in real-world terms about what was being discussed. The sick, evil way in which some Shadizaran brothels are run (mainly those that offer virgins to their clientele) dawned on me, and I saw for the first time how the term "Wicked" really is a gross understatement when talking about this city.

When I put that slant on the way I perceived everything else about the city, I had my Shadizar ready for the group.

I can understand why some people would rather not see that sort of thing in their RPing material. But I certainly don't think it can be considered as merely gratuitous or irrelvent to the greater product.

OTOH, I don't see stats for prostitutes (or mundane blacksmiths, etc) as necessary -- but understand that some people do want stats for everything, and Mongoose is probably not mistaken to include them.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I felt the need for the Expert class as well for Conan (I use the Conan rules for the Judge's Guild Wilderlands setting).

Snip.

Thanks Diabolus- now I don't have to make it myself.

Should I send you my v1.1 Sorcery system in fair trade? 8)

Raven, laughing

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I found the section on prostitution in Shadizar was the one thing that really brought home the whole ethos and mood of Shadizar for me.

I was reading through it quite nonchalantly, when I paused to think in real-world terms about what was being discussed. The sick, evil way in which some Shadizaran brothels are run (mainly those that offer virgins to their clientele) dawned on me, and I saw for the first time how the term "Wicked" really is a gross understatement when talking about this city.

Yes, but not to insult Vincent, [I think I've already done that] I never got the feel that Shadizar was 'wicked' by the way he presented the material. Now, I liked Beyond the Thunder River- Vinent has a head for the 'crunchy bits' [i.e hard and fast rules and numbers]. However, you had to read the moral view into it. There was no contrast between Shadizar and a more, shall we say, bearable view of things. Also, you might think it's abhorrant, but I am more than aware that to some people, that sort of thing would seem 'attractive' [The s***bags of humanity that is]. After all, the RL Shadizar, Singapore, exists and does a lot of business in things Vincent can't even write about- such as snuff.

[Snuff. Defination: Pornography with the simulated or actual murder of one or more of the participants is part of the act. For an mainstream example, see Sin City]

When I put that slant on the way I perceived everything else about the city, I had my Shadizar ready for the group.

SPOILER [My players don't read this. All others, highlight to read if you want]

My group may be at odds with the establishment of Shadizar after it makes a move to 'aquire' Messantia's underworld commerce.

Also, one major NPC and a PC are Zamoran Thieves- but they were the city's 'dust children', homeless orphans that rarely survive to adulthood. They are both bitter survivors and my PC wouldn't mind culling a few kidnappers, madams and crimelords out of the city.

I can understand why some people would rather not see that sort of thing in their RPing material. But I certainly don't think it can be considered as merely gratuitous or irrelvent to the greater product.

Well, it's not...fantastic, y'know. It's something you see in RL. Some more than others. [I do live in a bad part of town. It's not that dangerous of a town really though...] RPGing is about escaping the tedium and horrors of RL. Dragging prostitution into it ground me out, y'know. It's depressing enough to see RL. Now I am expected to want to GM it? I know Howard was rather obsessed about it, but I wish he'd had at least some moral stance on the subject. Or just a better view of women.

OTOH, I don't see stats for prostitutes (or mundane blacksmiths, etc) as necessary -- but understand that some people do want stats for everything, and Mongoose is probably not mistaken to include them.

Eh- a lot of people in my games don't have stats until they need them. Some of them are created on the fly and have stats filled in. I find leaving blank holes in the world leaves room to fill them in as I need to...

Raven

 

[Diabolus]

Should I send you my v1.1 Sorcery system in fair trade? 8)

Raven, laughing

Sure, send it along :lol:

 

[SableWyvern]

Yes, but not to insult Vincent, [I think I've already done that] I never got the feel that Shadizar was 'wicked' by the way he presented the material. Now, I liked Beyond the Thunder River- Vinent has a head for the 'crunchy bits' [i.e hard and fast rules and numbers]. However, you had to read the moral view into it. There was no contrast between Shadizar and a more, shall we say, bearable view of things. Also, you might think it's abhorrant, but I am more than aware that to some people, that sort of thing would seem 'attractive' [The s***bags of humanity that is]. After all, the RL Shadizar, Singapore, exists and does a lot of business in things Vincent can't even write about- such as snuff.

I agree that Shadizar's Wickedness isn't really driven home in the text. However, I don't think that necessarily indicates a great failure on Vincent's part.

The crux of the matter is, how do you really portray real, extreme Wickedness, with a capital "W"? Simple violence and degredation isn't enough. IMO, you really need to have emotive content, which is very difficult to present without forming a strong bond with the reader. For a novelist, this is usually done through the protagonists, and lenghty prose focusing on those protatgonists. Vincent did not have the space, nor is an RPG supplement the appropriate medium, for creating that sort of emotional tie to the reader. Not to mention that, even in a novel, the reader's tastes and opinions will decide whether or not they can form this sort of bond, irrespective -- to a small or large degree -- of the author's ability.

Instead, IMO, the reader needs to understand that Shadizar is Wicked (which was made clear), and find their own path to connecting with that concept on a deeper level. The job then falls to the GM to portray that to the players in a fashion tailored to their specific tastes and attitudes.

 

[S'mon]

IMC I use Commoner for Expert but usually give them d6 hit dice (sedentary d4, active d6, labouring d8, a la 1e DMG) and up to 6 skill points/level. The Commoner BAB & saves work fine.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Sable, I'm going disagree with you to a point about Vincent's presentation. The 'adventure seeds' presented in the set have the PCs doing so rather abhorrant(sp?) things. Assisting incest and murder? Kidnapping people for brothels? More degrading actions that can be requested by fallen Outsiders? [I don't use the word demon, as demon [from the Greek demonius just means spirit, or more accurately 'place spirit', not evil spirit] ]This goes below what I consider an appropiate 'suspension' of strict morality for entertainment purposes.

And then there's that adventure- whch hit the trash can the moment I finished reading it. It read like a bad pornographic novel out of the 'erotic' [read 'smut'] section of a bookstore. We know succubi are bad- do we have to read about her intentions to corrupt children into 'sexual predators'? Or have her hypnotize people into masterbating in her abandoned shrine? Or have the high priestess 'astride' her sacrficial victim? There are better, cleaner and more eloquant ways to convey a story than aiming for the lowest common denominator. I mean even Robert Jordan didn't go into much detail about Shadizar save that it had prostitution, thieves and muggers, yet he conveyed the feel that it wasn't a good place. Sanctuary of Thieves's World, Fritxz Liebers' Lankhmar(sp?) and other fantastic 'bad cities' tended not to deal with the actual details of the low kind of things humans can do to each other, yet convey the atmosphere of gritty streets and the people who live on them.

I am not just bitching here, I'm a little worried. In the 1980's the fundementalists almost shut down TSR and RPGs claiming that led to demon worship because they included 'demons' in their Monster Manual. Now, with the resergance of the right-wing, this sort of stuff is just going to hand ammo over to the future 'crusaders' in their personal vendettas against what they don't like or understand. Do we really want to catch a whiff of the tatics of the anti-abortion crowd here? Or have them outside gaming stores, claiming that 'Satan's work' is beng done while we're trying to roll up characters?

While I may be overstating my case a bit, the appearance of improper behavior in these times can be dangerous. As certain government's behaviors indicate in these bad times, there's a lot of people looking for a place to lay the blame and small minorities like us who already have a image problem are easy scapegoats to feed to the righteous crowds.

Raven

 

[SableWyvern]

Ok, I see where you're coming from now. My earlier post wasn't really related to that issue at all.

I haven't had a really close look at the adventure in Shadizar, and although what I have seen didn't impress me greatly, it was for completely different reasons.

As for the more immoral adventure seeds, I discarded those as inapropriate to my game without too much thought. IMO, I agree that some of them possibly shouldn't have found a place in the sourcebook, but the fact that they were there didn't really bother me.

In any case, I think it's safe to say that the levels of "offensive" material you and I are able to tolerate difers, and leave it at that. 8)