Testing Burgers Beam system

[Da Boss]

Hi All

Played a test scenario last night for my Darkness Rising - using Burgers beam system - will do a proper report maybe tonight with pic etc but the beam resutls were as follows:

reminder of rules - roll 1 dice for each AD - 1-2 miss, 3-5 1 hit, 6 - 3 hits

Turn 1 - no beams
Turn 2 - beam against fighter - 4 dice beam - 3 hits (dead fighter)
Turn 3 - 4 dice beam - 4 hits,
3 dice beam 2 hits,
3 dice beam 5 hits
8 dice beam 9 hits
Turn 4 - 3 dice beam - complete miss
3 dice beam - 3 hits
Turn 5 - 3 dice beam - 2 hits
8 dice beam - 13 hits (bloody Minbari!) and 5 crits

so it seemed to work quite well - although not that much different to the present system in this initial test. One really good hit and 1 complete miss

The main comments we had were:

It was alot faster than the present system, picked up the dice and read them off - however Greg did feel it lost s laittle of the feeling of the beam.

comments?

 

[Burger]

Greg did feel it lost s laittle of the feeling of the beam.

That would be my main criticism too. Rolling beam dice again and again is fun, especially when you have just one die left that refuses to miss.

The system does seem to have worked well, though. There were no massive hits (I term massive as double the starting ADs) and only one miss from a 3-dice beam (not totally unexpected, in fact a 1 in 27 chance as opposed to 1 in 8 with the standard 2e rules means this will still happen; just not as often).

 

[Delthos]

While I too like the rolling for extra hits, the best thing about this version is that they become much more reliable. It's probably more noticeable with those 1 and 2 AD beams.

I think it needs a little extra testing, especially on the extremes and at the low end. Say a White Star/Blue Star fleet or something with tons of beams like the Minbari or Vorlons.

 

[Da Boss]

Had a good few beam ships -

2 Shadow Stars - 3 dice beam,
1 Exterminator - 4 dice beam,
Mother ship - 4 dice beam
and Veshitan - 8 dice beam

I'll post more when back from work

 

[katadder]

While I too like the rolling for extra hits, the best thing about this version is that they become much more reliable. It's probably more noticeable with those 1 and 2 AD beams.

I think it needs a little extra testing, especially on the extremes and at the low end. Say a White Star/Blue Star fleet or something with tons of beams like the Minbari or Vorlons.

makes them almost too reliable. plus they cant slice a ship in half the way they can in 2e (and the show).

 

[Delthos]

I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with the number of ships you used. The problem is that that was a very middle of the road selection of ships. Taking middle of the road numbers of beams or numbers of ships with beams, will give you very middle of the road results. In order to "break the system", if you will, you've got to test the extremes. That's why it is so important to test many 1 and 2 AD beams and/or many if not all ships if a fleet with beams.

 

[Burger]

While I too like the rolling for extra hits, the best thing about this version is that they become much more reliable. It's probably more noticeable with those 1 and 2 AD beams.

I think it needs a little extra testing, especially on the extremes and at the low end. Say a White Star/Blue Star fleet or something with tons of beams like the Minbari or Vorlons.

makes them almost too reliable. plus they cant slice a ship in half the way they can in 2e (and the show).

All 6's gives you 3x the number of hits, that will pretty much do just as much slicing as 2e rules gives you. 18 hits from a 6AD beam isn't enough?!

 

[Da Boss]

While I too like the rolling for extra hits, the best thing about this version is that they become much more reliable. It's probably more noticeable with those 1 and 2 AD beams.

I think it needs a little extra testing, especially on the extremes and at the low end. Say a White Star/Blue Star fleet or something with tons of beams like the Minbari or Vorlons.

makes them almost too reliable. plus they cant slice a ship in half the way they can in 2e (and the show).

Actually it did - the Veshitan shot one ship with 8 dice beam - 9 hits -nasty but survivible after dodging a few- it then got a 6,5 critical - extra 20 odd damage and 39 extra crew - very dead ship it hit! The 14 dice beam hit also chopped an adrift Shadowstar (no dodging ) in twain.

The difference seems to be that the newer system means that small ships don't hit as well as big ships (or at least those with bigger beams) where as the present one means a 4AD beam can get 20 hits and a 6 dice beam miss.............(both examples have seen)

Also I really did like the speading up of the process.............

@ Delthos - just mentioning which ships was using

 

[Foxmeister]

makes them almost too reliable. plus they cant slice a ship in half the way they can in 2e (and the show).

You could argue that the critical system does allow for this. Personally though, I like the beam mechanics as they are - however the BBS does seem to be quite reasonable too, and probably better for single AD beams.

Regards,

Dave

 

[katadder]

yeah agree with that. they do seem a bit too reliable for the one hit though as its 3s rather than 4s.

 

[Burger]

On a 1AD beam, 1 in 3 shots will still miss. Whereas with 2e rules, 1 in 4 will get 2 or more hits! IMO BBS is much better for low AD beams. For high AD beams, more testing would really be required but IMO it is also better statistically. But as Greg said it is not as exciting as re-rolling and re-rolling. But then again, being on the other end of the 1AD that refuses to miss, can be really infuriating!!

 

[katadder]

true, but theres still that initial 50/50 chance of a miss. yes the 2e beam rolls can keep going but they can also miss alot bigger (yes I have also seen the 6AD miss or my adira get 1 hit with its beam).

 

[Diesel]

Speaking as someone whose League fleet was disappearing in the face of Kennyboy's Minbari beams on the next table over from the test game, I would agree there didn't seem to be as much 'drama' from the modified system.

Statistically, the new beam system is more representative, and will remove situations where Drazi Firehawks loose off their triple damage beams and achieve some mild surface burns whilst token 2 dice Drakh beams cleave Vree carriers apart.

But at the same time, isn't that half the fun?

I know Ken and myself can be fairly... expressive (he says being diplomatic!) players, but it's hard to see the same highs and lows coming from a quick roll on a chart compared to a bucketfull of dice. Whilst you get that horrible sinking feeling from 4 dice beams becoming 20 damage, at least you still have the hope that you can do something similar when it's your turn.

I can't comment on the finer points of the rules, having only been playing a couple of months, but the beam mechanic does at least add a real fun element to things!

 

[Greg Smith]

I that single test game it did smoothe out the number of hits. The real damage came from crits rather tham big beam hits.

 

[Ripple]

Haven't tested burgers system myself...

Big beam hits vs crits for damage - Almost always that way locally. If anything big beam hits tend to produce big numbers of crits and that is the damaging part, not the beam damage alone.

'drama' end of things - guess that is something I have to disagree with. I don't find myself wishing I get the chance to do the same thing when big beams go against me... I'm usually checking to see if I have enough left to bother finishing the game. If my only chance is to roll really big myself, usually not worth the time hoping I get stupidly lucky, especially if my fleet doesn't have any beams left. (lots of fleets operate with only a few beams, the loss of one or two beam ships can really tip the damage potential equation against them quickly)

I do agree that slow loading beams really benefit most, as you really need damage out of these when they fire, and missing with a Firehawks solar cannon is devastating.

Ripple

 

[Triggy]

I have no desire to see either system over the other but given that the averages remain the same and there is still some variation (not least in the critical effects) what I'd like to see is a lot of testing both with playtesters and players and if BBS proves sizeably more popular then we should go down this route. If the current beam system proves more popular or there is little difference then we should keep the status quo.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Including it as an optional rule seems reasonable. Or using it as the 'tournament' rule beam system. As it tends to provide more stable, less run away beam results, it would be a good choice for tourny play

 

[Greg Smith]

That would be my choice - as an optional rule.

 

[Burger]

Using it for tournaments seems like a good idea. Then they are more about skill and tactics rather than lucky beam streams.

 

[Triggy]

As an optional rule it would be a good addition, however if it is popular it could well be made the tournament "standard". Of course, there is no need to make this point in P&P as it's up to each tournament to use whatever rules they like.