Telepathy save DCs too high?

[James McMurray]

The save DC of 5 + P-Rating + Charisma mod + level is giving our first level telepaths save DCs of 21. Does that seem a bit high? So far only person has passed a save, and they rolled a nat 20 (needing an 18).

Has anyone house ruled it to drop the DC? We've thought about removing the level portion, or perhaps dropping the base +5.

 

[PhoenixAndy]

Well, I haven't tried it myself, but it seems reasonable as written.

Bear in mind that the series establishes that "Normals" can't withstand a telepath at all.

The only possible modification I'd make, is to add your own P-rating to the save when trying to resist.

 

[James McMurray]

True, but I'm interested in running a balanced game more than I'm interested in 100% mimicing the series.

 

[frobisher]

What's balance got to do with roleplaying?

Seriously, I never got this d20 obsession with "balance", then to me, the setting is always more important than the rules.

 

[James McMurray]

That's an entirely different discussion, and I'd prefer to keep this thread focused on what (if anything) to do to keep telepaths balanced. If you think the answer is "screw balance" then start another thread for that topic please.

 

[Gabriel_Luna]

No, I think he has a valid point. How are you defining balance? You want everyone to have a reasonable chance to defend against telepathy, no matter the circumstances, right? How do you define reasonable? 50% chance? 5%? Without knowing your definition of "balance" then we can't exactly help...

I think you already answered your question, though: if you must have a game that's "balanced", simply define how often you want telepathy to succeed and set the save as a percentage and roll against that. Anything else will give a bonus to certain characters over others.

Personally, I think you'd be making a mistake, and that your "balance" issue ought to be addressed with in game factors (Psi Corp limitations, enemy telepaths, ostracisim and paranoia as long as your teep abuses his or her powers, etc) but that does stray from the topic. If you want a mechanical fix, just figure how often you want your telepaths succeeding at telepathy and roll that.

 

[frobisher]

That's an entirely different discussion, and I'd prefer to keep this thread focused on what (if anything) to do to keep telepaths balanced. If you think the answer is "screw balance" then start another thread for that topic please.

Erm, you're going on about balance and yet you've got a campaign with at least one high charisma P12 running around in it..?

Of course people are failing saves against them - they're P12s! The balancing factors, as Gabriel_Luna said, are social and setting. After all, the teeps shouldn't be using their abilities on anyone without their express permission, or without express authorisation, but I suspect that's not what happened. Player character teeps always want to be the exception, the maverick, the one who gets away with the infringements.

The Telepath is an intrinsically "unblanced" character class, there's no getting around that. The Technomage also falls into that category. That's not to say that players should be prevented from taking those classes, but the GM should know damn fine what they're getting into. Tinkering with the rules to make P12s considerably less effective doesn't get around the fact that perhaps the problem is that you have too many P12s and that it may have been more reasonable that they were P5s (except of course there is no reason under 2e for any Teep to have a P rating of less than 7, a retrograde step IMO...).

 

[James McMurray]

Gabriel_Luna: I just want to make sure that my players that don't have telepaths don't feel over powreed by the telepath. They've all (even the telepath) mentioned that they thought the save DCs were too high. My question isn't "how do I make it fall within this margin of balance" it's "what have others done to balance them, and how did it work?"

frobisher: Ummm... No. He's a P10 ( 5 + P10 + 1 level + 5 charisma). In other words, he's got +2 higher than what I'd expect because he rolled really well. He does have a 20 charisma by being a Centauri. But it's not just him. None of the PCs ever made a save aginst a telepath either (Mr. Jones and Twitch for those who have Cold Equations).

Basically the current situation is that the telepath has a slightly better than 50% chance of neutralizing someone in a single roll. It might take a couple of turns, but they're concentration powers so that doesn't really matter. Opposing telepaths are the same. Mr. Jones dropped two guys before he got scratched and then ran away unmolested.

The rest of the PCs using guns generally need two shots to drop someone, which frequently takes 3 rounds.

We've said we'll run the first part of The Ragged Edge without making any changes and see how that goes, just to make sure it wasn't an oddity. I'm just looking to see if others have problems too. And I'm sorry, but "screw balance" doesn't help.

It just seems to us that when people need to roll 16s to survive at first level, something might be out of whack.

 

[James McMurray]

The Telepath is an intrinsically "unblanced" character class, there's no getting around that. The Technomage also falls into that category. That's not to say that players should be prevented from taking those classes, but the GM should know damn fine what they're getting into. Tinkering with the rules to make P12s considerably less effective doesn't get around the fact that perhaps the problem is that you have too many P12s and that it may have been more reasonable that they were P5s (except of course there is no reason under 2e for any Teep to have a P rating of less than 7, a retrograde step IMO...).

Uhhh... Again, no P12s. I'm talking about P8s here (I think I remember that being Twitch's P-Rating). IIRC Jones is a P8 or P9, and nobody ever made a save against either of them.

I understand that telepaths being irresistable fits the setting. I also understand that it may endanger the fun we're having. Personally, I choose fun over strict adherence to canon any day. YMMV.

 

[PhoenixAndy]

So your answer is to cripple the telepaths abilities?

Why not just give normals extra kit, or give the teeps social penalties for using their powers.

Also, if you're more concerned with making everything balanced, than sticking to the setting, why are you even playing B5? Go get d20 Future. Jeez.

 

[frobisher]

frobisher: Ummm... No. He's a P10 ( 5 + P10 + 1 level + 5 charisma). In other words, he's got +2 higher than what I'd expect because he rolled really well. He does have a 20 charisma by being a Centauri.

Well that's okay, he "rolled" well :roll: You're still talking an extreme case there...

But it's not just him. None of the PCs ever made a save aginst a telepath either (Mr. Jones and Twitch for those who have Cold Equations).

Ever thought this may be "by design"?

Basically the current situation is that the telepath has a slightly better than 50% chance of neutralizing someone in a single roll. It might take a couple of turns, but they're concentration powers so that doesn't really matter. Opposing telepaths are the same. Mr. Jones dropped two guys before he got scratched and then ran away unmolested.

Again, see above..?

The rest of the PCs using guns generally need two shots to drop someone, which frequently takes 3 rounds.

Erm this might be your problem... They could roleplay out of a situation you know..? Combat should be a last resort in the setting.

It just seems to us that when people need to roll 16s to survive at first level, something might be out of whack.

1st level characters aren't invulnerable; they shouldn't be walking in front of buses, and they shouldn't be annoying powerful telepaths.

 

[James McMurray]

I had a couple of really long replies ready, but don't want to derail this thread. If you don't have anything to add other than "dude, teeps are supposed to rock! play nother game noob1!" then please don't waste our time.

I will clear up one misconception:

1st level characters aren't invulnerable; they shouldn't be walking in front of buses, and they shouldn't be annoying powerful telepaths.

I was talking about the NPCs needing to roll 16s or higher. In the "climactic battle" in cold equations it ended instantly because the first level PC has a save or die power with a nearly unbeatable DC. That's a 4th level NPC who is lying in wait providing no challenge to a 1st level party. However, had the party not had a teep, most likely everyone would have died. I don't like that situation, and my players (even the teep player) didn't either, hence my coming here looking for opinions.

If you like that in your games then more power to you. I'm not saying it's stupid and completely unworkable ever, just that it doesn't seem to be working for our group.

 

[frobisher]

I will clear up one misconception:

1st level characters aren't invulnerable; they shouldn't be walking in front of buses, and they shouldn't be annoying powerful telepaths.

I was talking about the NPCs needing to roll 16s or higher.

No misconception dude, just going by what you said...

It just seems to us that when people need to roll 16s to survive at first level, something might be out of whack.

In the "climactic battle" in cold equations it ended instantly because the first level PC has a save or die power with a nearly unbeatable DC.

Which would that be..?

That's a 4th level NPC who is lying in wait providing no challenge to a 1st level party. However, had the party not had a teep, most likely everyone would have died.

I strongly suspect you'd be wrong there. I do credit Mongoose with a modicom of play testing, and there is no requirement for the scenario to have a PC teep in it.

I don't like that situation, and my players (even the teep player) didn't either, hence my coming here looking for opinions.

If you like that in your games then more power to you. I'm not saying it's stupid and completely unworkable ever, just that it doesn't seem to be working for our group.

From everything you've said, it looks like the PCs are falling back on the "because my character can do such a thing, they must do such a thing" D&D defense.

I suspect, next time the teep has his annual checkup, he/she will find that they'll have a hard time for the infractions (What we were saying about the social constraints...).

 

[Mongoose Gar]

B5 telepaths are very hard to resist indeed. This is by design, to match what we see in the series.

If you want to tone them down, then just drop the DC for the saving throws. 5+P-rating+Charisma mod gives a nice average score around DC12 for P5s, and DC18 for P10s, but doesn't scale with character advancement very well.

10+P-rating+Charisma means average characters will be screwed (DC17 on average for P5s, DC20+ for P10s), but high-level characters will have a chance of resisting.

Something like 5+P-rating+Charisma+level/3 gives a middle ground, but is a bit fiddly.

A lot of Teep powers are save-or-die, but so are PPG shots for a lot of characters.

As for problems in the Ragged Edge - direct confrontations between the PCs and major villains don't happen too often in the campaign, and will become even less common if the bad guys learn there's a powerful Teep working for Autumn Shipping.

 

[James McMurray]

Which would that be..?

Pain. Daze also works as a save or die, assuming you have someone around who can kill them once they're immobilized.

I suspect, next time the teep has his annual checkup, he/she will find that they'll have a hard time for the infractions (What we were saying about the social constraints...).

What annual checkup?

Mongoose Gar: thanks! If the teep still seems to be an issue after the first section of Ragged Edge we'll most likely use one of those. I don't think it will be as big an issue in that one though, as there aren't any group vs. one person fights, and stretching the save or die powers across multiple targets can get painful fast.

 

[chulbert]

What annual checkup?

If your telepath is a member of Psi Corp, they are subject to periodic reviews during which they must submit completely to full scans from a superior officer to determine if they have breached the Corp's code of conduct. The penalties for those breaches are severe and not to be taken lightly. This process was featured in an episode of Crusade.

In general, I strongly recommend against diminishing the strengths of a character in order to balance them. Instead, I submit that the classes are already balanced for the most part and that if one character seems to be out of control, you aren't doing enough to capitalize on their weaknesses.

 

[Chernobyl]

actually, it wasn't the Psi Corp in crusade I thought, they were disbanded after the "telepath wars" weren't they?

Chern

 

[chulbert]

You are absolutely correct. In Crusade it was the Psionic Monitoring Commission that conducted the audits. I'm not sure if the Corps performed anything comparable.

I think the general comment still stands, however. Strong telepaths have a lot of individual weaknesses as well as strong external pressures. It's up to the GM to exploit those to achieve balance, not neuter a character's strengths unless absolutely necessary.

 

[James McMurray]

As stated earlier, the telepath is a centauri, and hence not a member of Psi Corps, nor is he under the jurisdiction of Earth to undergo any of their annual analysis (if they even know he's a teep, which we haven't decided yet).

If you think I'm not capitalizing on the weaknesses (and it's quite possible given that I've run only one full session with a PC teep in it), what do you recommend I do (keeping in line with the events of Ragged Edge as much as possible)?

 

[frobisher]

As stated earlier, the telepath is a centauri, and hence not a member of Psi Corps, nor is he under the jurisdiction of Earth to undergo any of their annual analysis (if they even know he's a teep, which we haven't decided yet).

Each of the races manages their telepaths in similar manners though - the Centauri Guild of Telepaths (I believe) whilst slightly more "relaxed" operate under the same social pressures as the Earth Alliance - The telepaths have to be seen to be under control.

If you think I'm not capitalizing on the weaknesses (and it's quite possible given that I've run only one full session with a PC teep in it), what do you recommend I do (keeping in line with the events of Ragged Edge as much as possible)?

The simple one is the XP reward. Reward the PC for sticking to the Guild guidlines as closely as possible. If his first option is to fry someone's brainstem at every opportunity, penalise him. If the player resists the pressure of the other PCs to fry a few brains, every time they ask, reward him. Remember, telepaths are meant to be held accountable to a higher standard. But as GM you have to keep track of each and every infraction of standards. Most will be "excusable" come their annual inspection, but given the inspection is to be handled by a more powerful teep/teeps than the PC, they will in general not be able to hide the really juicy offenses.

But in general, reward good roleplaying with extra XP, and penalise bad roleplaying (The Ranger who insists on keeping a high profile, the theiving/lying Minbari, "combat" teeps, the "conversational" Vree etc).