Tech Levels - Different Enough?

[DFW]

I think you are misreading the rules if you do.

Nope. Followed the gen rules step by step. The rules were just put together without logical thought.

 

[captainjack23]

Nope. Followed the gen rules step by step. The rules were just put together without logical thought.

Oh, good heavens, pish and tosh again. "without logical thought " ? Now you're just being overdramatic.

No need to ramp it up. I think we are all clear that you don't like it.

 

[Ishmael]

Your example must be using somthing non-mongoosian for rules. First, tech 5 is TL 5: (Industrial) TL 5 brings widespread electrification, tele-communications and internal combustion. and quite sufficient for maintaining vaccuume gear and shelter. second, assuming that the 5 digit UWP you provide is omitting Law Level,the modifier for D00016x is +5 , giving a minimum tech of 6 and a max of 11. Are you using MT ? .......

Possibly, depending on the rules used.

.......
Actually, I referenced all my available material from CT book 6 through MT and the MgT SRD. I do admit I was mistaken about the MgT tech dm table; at first glance it looks identical to all the versions that came before ( CT book 6 and MT are identical ), but it has a couple of minor differences which do nothing to change the point I was originally making, and which seems to have been missed.

The standard UWP rules for tech very strongly imply that the tech level assigned to a world is very much dependent on imports. This interpretation is echoed explicitly in older materials "Hard Times" by the mechanism that lowers tech levels due to the loss of interstellar trade; where tech levels fall back to self-sustainable levels in the absence of imports. This is problematic in itself in that it means there are artificial limits to trade that are enforced by the Imperium that keep low tech worlds low, despite the open declaration that promoting free trade is its reason for existence.

If the above were to exist simultaneously with the other interpretation that tech levels represent local production and infrastructure capabilities, then what you'd have is the 'water empire' problem discussed by aspqrz. Imports are artificially limited to what the world could produce on its own anyways.

In an ATU setting, while there would be no significant problems if one or two worlds are generated this way, the issue becomes noticeable once an attempt to make a larger coherent setting is made. If a world's tech level is bolstered by imports, then where are those imports coming from considering that ALL world's tech levels are bolstered by imports, as implied by the RAW.?

The tech-is-local-production manner of using it is more useful when running meta-game aspects of Traveller, such as determining a world's gdp as in TCS, Striker or Pocket Empires. Even 'World Builder's Handbook' and 'World Tamer's Handbook' treat tech levels and imports in this fashion. I have no idea how Mongoose will approach this, as they had not released anything on play of that scale yet ( to the best of my knowledge ). But again, that's not how the standard UWP is set up to work.

Another problem with the UWP, where it applies to overall trade, is the assignment of starports and of population. Both are effectively pure random in that they are unaffected by any other condition. As a result, centers of commerce are scattered across space without regard for centers of production or likely markets. Important trade routes are placed without regard for who they would actually serve.
Given the same randomness without regard for other conditions, the population is distributed in a manner completely different from trade centers which means they would work together in a coherent fashion only coincidentally.

For these reasons, I feel the UWP is broken where tech levels and trade are concerned ( which is more the subject of this thread than determining how often a world made up as an example would appear ). So, instead of only "bringing your own rotten apples to a fir tree", I rewrote the UWP method to suit me, and I've even shared it.

What I see is that different editions of the same game have different interpretations, which suggests that each edition is trying to deal with the issue differntly than the others. Not a big surprise, and not exactly supportive of an unwilling ness to change the rules if not the OTU.

I illustrated with multiple versions that the same 2 interpretations exist throughout; 1. tech as local production capability 2. tech bolstered by imports.
The first method is the better one, however all editions continue to use 33 year old methods, with little change, despite the issues with trade it can cause. And as discussed, trying to use both interpretations simultaneously is even worse.

( there are other problems with the UWP RAW, but as they are not related to tech and trade, I'll let them pass; this thread is about tech levels and trade issues .... because they are intertwined, even if a specific game doesn't use them directly )

 

[DFW]

Oh, good heavens, pish and tosh again. "without logical thought "

Characterized by reason; rational, reasonable.

The gen rules aren't pretty simple concept.

 

[far-trader]

Oh, good heavens, pish and tosh again. "without logical thought "

Characterized by reason; rational, reasonable.

The gen rules aren't, pretty simple concept.

(I have presumed the last sentence lost a comma and added it for clarity)

Again, an even simpler concept, you are the one that has a brain capable of logic and reason. The rules don't. The dice don't. Just you. The ref. Use it.

As I said if there is a flaw in the (MgT in this case) Core RAW it is that they do not state what seems obvious to some. That the rules NEED interpretation. That the rules are not a straight-jacket but a launching pad for the imagination.

I don't have much in the way of MgT rules, and what little I have has had only a perusal, so perhaps this is addressed somewhere in the body of MgT Traveller. If not let me use CT as precedence:

Book 0 - An Introduction to Traveller - c1981

Like the generation of characters, the generation of planets should be more than a matter of tossing dice and noting results. The numbers of the planetary characteristics should be expanded into something more, unless the referee feels that the players will do little more than flit from world to world, never venturing outside the environs of the starport.

Roll the eight planetary characteristics for all worlds in a subsector, and write out what each of the numbers means in a single line of a sheet of paper. Then, proceeding down the list planet by planet, expand on the brief descriptions thus generated, explaining away contradictions or eliminating them by changing numbers in the planetary profiles.

Does the planet have an A type starport, a high tech level and a very low population (1000 or less)? The starport could be automated to a great degree, and/or the starport staff the only inhabitants of the planet.

etc...

Your argument is not with the UWP generation. It is with the approach to it. That's on you, or the publication for not going the extra step and clarifying that the rules require interpretation and should not be slavishly adhered to in the face of obvious issues. Perhaps they should be called "guidelines" and not "rules" to make the point clearer. Again, still not an issue with the UWP generation itself.

 

[captainjack23]

Oh, good heavens, pish and tosh again. "without logical thought "

Characterized by reason; rational, reasonable.

The gen rules aren't pretty simple concept.

Yes, well, sez you. :wink: Pretty simple concept, too. Are you ever going to explain why the UWP you present is broken ? 'cause your contempt,tho probably well polished and earned, sure isn't enough......

On another topic entirely, just what the heck is your avatar ?

 

[atpollard]

Now that we have been enlightened about world generation, trade, economics and properly citing sources ...

How is a TL 10 world different from a TL 13 world?
How is a TL 13 world different from a TL 15 world?

 

[far-trader]

Now that we have been enlightened about world generation, trade, economics and properly citing sources ...

How is a TL 10 world different from a TL 13 world?

In many ways.

How is a TL 13 world different from a TL 15 world?

In many more ways.

Sorry, but such answers will be dependent on what level of detail you want and your own imagination. There are already lists of gear and processes and such to get you started.

A full answer would require a book, or several. And a few have been written already for past versions of the game if you want to hunt them up and buy them. There is no easy short answer to this.

 

[captainjack23]

Now that we have been enlightened about world generation, trade, economics and properly citing sources ...

How is a TL 10 world different from a TL 13 world?
How is a TL 13 world different from a TL 15 world?

well, one difference that a TL 10 planet will have from a TL 13 is that for home produced ships, the TL10 world is much more reliant on J1 mains, and may be quite isolated as a result. TL has J4 capacity, and can go anywhere, barring rifts. Possibly, in any kind of integrated polity, I might expect the TL 10 world to be more locally oriented, with less advanced tech available.

Most likely, a TL 10 will get buttkicked by the 13 in a space war, but might hold its own on the ground if they have numbers and the defence....

Culturally ? hard to say. Once one is on the grid at all, in an OTU type setting, I'd expect the differences to mainly one of degree, rather than nature. Possibly, if the world if the world is reliant on its own fleet for trade, it'll suffer from time lag -ie fashions will be a bit out of date, perhaps, and politics a bit stale. Obviously, if the TL 10 planet is on a major trade route with an xboat link that isn't going to be an issue. As the saying goes, location, location, location.

Actually, I kind of see the 13/15 comparison as being likely more similar than the 10/13. The TL notation in the OTU isn't just an exponential graph (like we always see); it seems as though the rate of change decreases past a certain point so that it looks more like half a bell curve. 15/16 are at the top and the reaal inflection point is probably at about TL10 -gravitics and reliable jump 1 are the breakthru technologies, and they seem to be refined for the next few levels, not replaced.

caveat: I don't have my TL chart in front of me.

Better ?

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I don't think Rifts and Mains will be that much of a problem for those J1 ships from that TL10 world. They can just do multiple jumps through the empty hexes (I know bringing that up AGAIN!). Sure it takes twice as long, but the fuel difference isn't that much (just 2 more weeks of Power Plant Fuel).

Traveller doesn't track Life Support costs (in terms of Dtons), so there is no real difference there (even if there should be).

During the age of sail, we had semi-steady contact with groups separated by about 1 month of travel, so in Traveller terms, a TL10 world will have semi-regular contact with all worlds within 4 parsecs, while a TL13 world would have semi-regular contact with worlds within 16 parsecs.

Direct control of worlds more than about 2 jumps away will be really hard due to the 1 month turn around for a response, so that would limit the sphere of control to 2 parsecs at TL10 and 8 parsecs at TL13.

TL13 also has the advantage of more efficient Fusion Power Plants and Meson Gun technology for defense, TL 10 Space Navy doesn't stand a chance against a force that can ignore their armour.

 

[atpollard]

Now that we have been enlightened about world generation, trade, economics and properly citing sources ...

How is a TL 10 world different from a TL 13 world?

In many ways.

I had always assumed so (in my mind's eye) ... but the bulk of this trade/economic sidetrip suggests exactly the opposite.

Consider this, a typical free trader lands at a class C starport on a TL 5 world. Already we have a plentiful supply of all sorts of things far beyond TL 5 at the starport - Starships, fusion power, advanced communications, weapons, well armed SPA personnel, etc.

Very few adventures that I have seen indicate that the group would have difficulty locating at least one air/raft to rent/borrow from at least one of the locals. ... so how, in any practical way, is this TL 5 world different from a TL 9 world?
It has been argued that having fewer (but not none) high tech goods makes the world poor, not primative.

How do TL 14 staples manufactured on a TL 15 world and trans-shiped through a TL 12 intermediate world, NOT wind up available on the TL 12 world? And if TL 14 goods are available on the TL 12 world, how is the 'culture' percieved by the free trader crew just passing through not indistinguishable from that of a TL 14 world?

Perhaps "In [NOT] many ways" might be more accurate.

 

[atpollard]

Better ?

Back on topic, at least.

The problem I have is that every fiber of my being wants there to be a difference between a TL 12 world and its TL 7 neighbor ...

... but with a rushing flow of Interstellar starships transporting goods of every TL imaginable through both starports, how can the worlds remain so different?

The "Space Amish" gambit (they just reject advanced technology) starts to get old very quickly.
A "Space Caribbean" option (they are just REALLY poor) hardly seems much easier to swallow.

The TL notation in the OTU isn't just an exponential graph (like we always see); it seems as though the rate of change decreases past a certain point so that it looks more like half a bell curve. 15/16 are at the top and the reaal inflection point is probably at about TL10 -gravitics and reliable jump 1 are the breakthru technologies, and they seem to be refined for the next few levels, not replaced.

Not particularly satisfying on an emotional level, but a clever observation. I'll need to give it more thought.

 

[atpollard]

During the age of sail, we had semi-steady contact with groups separated by about 1 month of travel, so in Traveller terms, a TL10 world will have semi-regular contact with all worlds within 4 parsecs, while a TL13 world would have semi-regular contact with worlds within 16 parsecs.

Direct control of worlds more than about 2 jumps away will be really hard due to the 1 month turn around for a response, so that would limit the sphere of control to 2 parsecs at TL10 and 8 parsecs at TL13.

This is pretty much the same conclusion that I reached.
The consequence is that a TL 13 world should dominate the culture of any signifantly lower TL worlds within 8 parsecs. Similar to the Eastern Bloc Countries and the USSR during the Cold War. Poland was nominally an independant nation, but functioned as part of the USSR.

Of course in a perfect world generation system, most of the people and most of the advanced technology should be located on the more earth-like worlds. (but that is a fight for another thread).

 

[rust]

Of course in a perfect world generation system, most of the people and most of the advanced technology should be located on the more earth-like worlds. (but that is a fight for another thread).

I am not sure about this when it comes to technology. On a planet much
like Earth one can live comfortably with a comparatively low technology
level, but the more hostile a planet is, the more and the more advanced
technology is required to live there. If the hostile planet has enough re-
sources to be wealthy (it probably does, otherwise it would hardly have
been settled) and enough population (or robots) for an industry, it may
well be the technological powerhouse of the region. A Third Imperium
example could perhaps be Glisten in the Spinward Marches, an asteroid
belt.

 

[atpollard]

Of course in a perfect world generation system, most of the people and most of the advanced technology should be located on the more earth-like worlds. (but that is a fight for another thread).

I am not sure about this when it comes to technology. On a planet much
like Earth one can live comfortably with a comparatively low technology
level, but the more hostile a planet is, the more and the more advanced
technology is required to live there. If the hostile planet has enough re-
sources to be wealthy (it probably does, otherwise it would hardly have
been settled) and enough population (or robots) for an industry, it may
well be the technological powerhouse of the region. A Third Imperium
example could perhaps be Glisten in the Spinward Marches, an asteroid
belt.

I viewed a different cause-effect relationship at work ...

1. More people CHOOSE to live in tempeate Europe than north of the Arctic Circle or in the Sahara desert.

2. A single family group can live at TL 0 (modern survivalists). Building a TL 4 railroad would require a population in the thousands to support the mines and foundaries and other support industries. TL 6-7 Space programs tend to require populations in the Millions to afford the infrastructure.

THEREFORE:
I was simply assuming that a starfaring people would choose to live where the air was breathable and the water drinkable rather than on the shore of a liquid methane ocean on the world 2 parsecs away - and the Billions of people would probably be in favor of high tech rather than choosing to be TL 2 Luddites (while hundreds of people on a desert world might not be able to support a TL 14 city and Starport).

Just trying to imagine the NORMAL case rather than the unique exception.
(although I do like Glisten, one of the better 'exceptions'.)

 

[Ishmael]

....On a planet muchlike Earth one can live comfortably with a comparatively low technology level, but the more hostile a planet is, the more and the more advanced technology is required to live there. If the hostile planet has enough re-sources to be wealthy (it probably does, otherwise it would hardly have
been settled) and enough population (or robots) for an industry, it may
well be the technological powerhouse of the region. A Third Imperium
example could perhaps be Glisten in the Spinward Marches, an asteroid
belt.

There has to be a history behind that, though. Unless the population is native to the hostile environment ( in which case they wouldn't need the high tech to survive there ), they would have to colonize first and bring all the high tech with them to start ( import tech to world ). The imported technology to this colony had to be exported from somewhere. During the time that the colony advances, the supporting world would advance as well unless events occur to cause it to stagnate or regress.

If all the colony has as its resources are raw materials, it will have to import its tech until it can build up the manufacturing base and infrastructure locally.

So it comes back to the interpretation of what tech level means; manufacturing capability for self-sufficiency?..or tech-propped-up-by-imports...

On a hostile world, the costs of capital and infrastructure necessary to grow food and provide a nice environment for the numbers needed to support a hi-tech manufacturing base and infrastructure must be very very expensive ( I'd imagine ).

 

[FreeTrav]

This is why I have written my own UWP method and treat tech levels only as local manufacturing/infrastructure tech and don't use the 3I very much.

Ishmael, please consider writing a serious explication of your UWP generation procedure, and a discussion of why you felt it was necessary. I see either a Doing It My Way or a Traveller Solution Series article in Freelance Traveller with your name on it if you do.

 

[DFW]

So it comes back to the interpretation of what tech level means; manufacturing capability for self-sufficiency?..or tech-propped-up-by-imports...

According to the MGT MRB it is the former: "Technology Levels measure the scientific capacity of a world..."

So, your inclination to roll your own is right on track. IMO.

 

[Mithras]

From the OP ... I've been putting ideas onto a new TL table, trying retain the Traveller feel (sorry its based on the Book 3 version). Adding what I can, and including RPG or movie settings I think roughly correspond.

http://zozer.weebly.com/uploads/3/4/3/3/3433372/expanded-tech-table.pdf

 

[IanBruntlett]

From the OP ... I've been putting ideas onto a new TL table, trying retain the Traveller feel (sorry its based on the Book 3 version). Adding what I can, and including RPG or movie settings I think roughly correspond.

http://zozer.weebly.com/uploads/3/4/3/3/3433372/expanded-tech-table.pdf

Had a quick look at it. I like it I thought it was strange putting Star Trek in the same league as the Culture.