Captain Jack's Guide to Profitable Passengers and Cargo

EDG said:
Would it though? On a low pop planet, perhaps - but a bulk megafreighter probably isn't going to head to one of those to start with.

Its called bad luck, and the above is a random example of what is called an unexpected complication.

Feel free to ignore the detail of the example. The main question was why is the word speculative used ? Did we hit that?
 
EDG said:
AKAramis said:
there is no real definition of just how much trade flows.
just how much trade is there?

Well, there is if you count GT:Far Trader... that tells you exactly how much trade flows (I have no idea how realistic is it, but at least its internally consistent). But I've generated the trade routes for an entire sector using GT:FT and the results looked pretty damn sensible to me. It's quite interesting actually, when you can see where all the "millions of credits per week" flows are.

If it works for you, and you have either a solo campaign (yourself, perhaps) or a very well behaved bunch of merchantile players, and the time and the interest nad scope of campaign, its great; It's a bit of overkill, (and not especially more accurate) on a micro level, where the goal is simulating the outcome of a very small part of trade from A to B in a small ship with a mix of goals beyond profit.
 
captainjack23 said:
If it works for you, and you have either a solo campaign (yourself, perhaps) or a very well behaved bunch of merchantile players, and the time and the interest nad scope of campaign, its great; It's a bit of overkill, (and not especially more accurate) on a micro level, where the goal is simulating the outcome of a very small part of trade from A to B in a small ship with a mix of goals beyond profit.

Well, the point is that it can work for anyone, not just for me. But yes, it's a lot of work to do, but it'll tell you exactly where the trade is flowing and IMO if you have a mercantile campaign and have made a sector or subsector for it then it's definitely worth doing.

On the micro scale it's also useful because it can tell you where the bulk trade is going and where it isn't going, which can help you point the players in the direction of the profitable markets that they can find a niche in. Though it's true that it probably tallies with what one would think by looking at the UWPs (i.e. a pop 1 world isn't likely to be a trade hub where gigacredits worth of trade originates per year, and that low pop Starport E world is probably a good target for players).

It's an interesting exercise for people to try anyway, and it does reveal some useful insights into the sector. If nothing else it adds a degree of realism and verisimilitude to it.

Even without calculating all the BTNs and plotting out the trade routes that way, it's still handy to calculate the WTN (World Trade Number) and that's a pretty simple thing to do (just one small calculation based on pop and trade codes IIRC), and that'd tell you a fair bit about the world's economics. Some kind of easily-approximated 'economic power' code like that would be a useful addition to a world's stats.
 
EDG said:
captainjack23 said:
Well, the point is that it can work for anyone, not just for me. But yes, it's a lot of work to do, but it'll tell you exactly where the trade is flowing and IMO if you have a mercantile campaign and have made a sector or subsector for it then it's definitely worth doing.

On the micro scale it's also useful because it can tell you where the bulk trade is going and where it isn't going, which can help you point the players in the direction of the profitable markets that they can find a niche in.

"You" was to be used in the generic, and not specific sense, really. I suppose saying "If one has" is more correct, but always seems too stuffy for words.

That said, you are preaching to , if not the choir, then the parson's assistant over tea...... :wink:

Its a great suppliment, and helps me keep the spirit of the area I'm playing in in balance....but is utterly useless to my batch of IISS troubleshooters....so far.
 
captainjack23 said:
Its a great suppliment, and helps me keep the spirit of the area I'm playing in in balance....but is utterly useless to my batch of IISS troubleshooters....so far.

Yep, which is why I suggested we take another look at the idea of an "economic power" stat like the WTN or the one that Aramis proposed elsewhere here - just a quickly calculable number that can give us an idea of how strong an economy the world has.
 
EDG said:
captainjack23 said:
Its a great suppliment, and helps me keep the spirit of the area I'm playing in in balance....but is utterly useless to my batch of IISS troubleshooters....so far.

Yep, which is why I suggested we take another look at the idea of an "economic power" stat like the WTN or the one that Aramis proposed elsewhere here - just a quickly calculable number that can give us an idea of how strong an economy the world has.

Yeah, actually, after posting the last notes, I ran off to find my copy, and sure enough, it isn't easily at hand. How does it calculate the WTN ?

BTW, this sounds like an excellent evolution of the thread... assuming you were looking for my permission..... :lol:
 
EDG said:
captainjack23 said:
If it works for you, and you have either a solo campaign (yourself, perhaps) or a very well behaved bunch of merchantile players, and the time and the interest nad scope of campaign, its great; It's a bit of overkill, (and not especially more accurate) on a micro level, where the goal is simulating the outcome of a very small part of trade from A to B in a small ship with a mix of goals beyond profit.

Well, the point is that it can work for anyone, not just for me. But yes, it's a lot of work to do, but it'll tell you exactly where the trade is flowing and IMO if you have a mercantile campaign and have made a sector or subsector for it then it's definitely worth doing.

And its fatally flawed based upon one source assumption: that trade in a no-faster-than-travel comm environment will have the same nature and rates as a much-faster-than-travel trade environment.

It's a very logical build up from modern international trade... and that is definitely not a valid model for what has been portrayed in some places.

It has several other assumptions that affect verisimilitude:
1) two week (or more) additional turn around has very limited to no impact
2) worlds will not be self-sufficient
3) that maximum trade capacity of a world will be used off planet.

GTFT requires a couple million tons of cargo flow a week on several routes in the marches. A look at the encounter tables would tend to indicate a mere several thousand tons per week in even the larger systems.

Using GTFT, one should expect (IIRC) 1 type A every couple minutes... in addition to a 10KTd freighter every hour... which means that the old "Check for encounter, then check for hostility", the encounter check for Regina's orbital space should be 100km, rolled hourly, on 3+ on 2d6... with 10+ being a megafreighter...

Traveller has many disconnects of this nature.

In part, tho, the problem is that there really are Two OTU's... the pre-84 small ship Traveller universe, and the post-84 big ship, big trade universe.
 
AKAramis said:
It's a very logical build up from modern international trade... and that is definitely not a valid model for what has been portrayed in some places.

It contradicts CT, but CT is known to be broken when it comes to trade anyway.

It has several other assumptions that affect verisimilitude:
1) two week (or more) additional turn around has very limited to no impact

I don't think it should have much impact. Like I said, a ship can use public 'trade tables' at the starports to see how the prices fluctuate over the weeks beforehand. And a ship can start negotiating a deal from the moment it arrives in a system via radio.

Traveller simply isn't the age of sail, and you can't expect it to work exactly like the age of sail did. It's a futuristic setting where ships have radios and where the markets are at the very least based on a more modern paradigm.

2) worlds will not be self-sufficient

I don't think it necessarily precludes them being self-sufficient. If anything worlds are going to be trading the stuff that is beyond their needs.

3) that maximum trade capacity of a world will be used off planet.

Why shouldn't it though? I think it makes sense for a world to want to trade as much as it can (whether it's able to do that or not is another matter).

These are only 'flaws' if you're trying to cling onto a system that simply doesn't work, and trying to strictly adhere to a historical paradigm that doesn't work in a futuristic setting.

GTFT requires a couple million tons of cargo flow a week on several routes in the marches. A look at the encounter tables would tend to indicate a mere several thousand tons per week in even the larger systems.

Using GTFT, one should expect (IIRC) 1 type A every couple minutes... in addition to a 10KTd freighter every hour... which means that the old "Check for encounter, then check for hostility", the encounter check for Regina's orbital space should be 100km, rolled hourly, on 3+ on 2d6... with 10+ being a megafreighter...

So the encounter tables are nonsense then, and should be changed. No big deal. These are worlds where billions of MCr of trade flow (sometimes on a weekly basis). It seems reasonable to expect a lot of big haulers carrying stuff in those cases. But there's still a lot of worlds with much less trade being done that the players can get involved in.

Plus, really, space is bloody vast, and ships are bloody tiny. The chance of you "encountering" another ship (i.e. coming within about 500,000 km), even while on approach to a planet should be ridiculously low. The only time you'll even be able to visually see another ship is when you're in the last few hundred kms or so to the Starport or at the planet itself.

Traveller has many disconnects of this nature.

Usually because it was broken to start with...


In part, tho, the problem is that there really are Two OTU's... the pre-84 small ship Traveller universe, and the post-84 big ship, big trade universe.

Given that 1984 was 24 years ago, I don't really have much sympathy for people who stubbornly insist on sticking to the older OTU just because it was the original. The original was poorly thought out and poorly planned. Things were updated in 1984, and rather than fight it I think it makes everyone's life easier (and a whole lot more sense) to just switch to the later paradigm. Unless you want to argue that big ships never existed previously and just magically appeared and threw the setting into turmoil, which they didn't. I mean, for crying out loud, it's time to move on already.
 
I'm not sure that an extended debate on proto traveller vs CT traveller vs GTFT with a liberal helping of old arguments is really progress here.

Can we agree that for the small package trade & the tramp trade that
1. MGT's model as we read it in the 3.2 is insufficient
2. the model I proposed for MGT trade needs work
and that
3. Parts and bits of CT,PCT and GTFT can be used without prejudice as long as they work well for MGT ?

As an example: does the basic measure of world trade in GTFT provide a more or less useful model of MGT small craft trade than not ?
 
Well, adding an economic code for a world (or being able to calculate one at least) should allow us to get a much better grasp of how the trade should flow. How one figures out that code is another matter.

Really we have to determine where all these 'small craft' are doing their speculative business. I always envision the PC ships doing most of the trade among the C/D/E starports that are off the beaten track. But when you get to the "core" worlds with the high pops and the good starports, a small ship probably doesn't have much to do beyond shipping passengers or freight.
 
EDG said:
Well, adding an economic code for a world (or being able to calculate one at least) should allow us to get a much better grasp of how the trade should flow. How one figures out that code is another matter.

Really we have to determine where all these 'small craft' are doing their speculative business. I always envision the PC ships doing most of the trade among the C/D/E starports that are off the beaten track. But when you get to the "core" worlds with the high pops and the good starports, a small ship probably doesn't have much to do beyond shipping passengers or freight.

Agreed about the code, mostly.

For the MGT modification, I made the assertion that the main trade of the players will be in the spot market-what needs to move right now, and may well be gone next week or tomorrow. The spot market in this trade is assumed to be essentiallt the leftover bits from the real serious trade. Regarding port type, one can make arguments that this dross can be more frequent at type A/B starports or more frequent type CDE starports, or largely independedt of volume of trade.

Picking which model will be for my purposes the most important determinant of how player trade is developed.

The brief versions of the the three positions are:

More at high volume ports

Pro: More trade = more leftovers =larger spot market; higher volume ports have lerger ships, and are more likely to have preassigned cargos/frieghting contracts. Simply, the rate of increased trade will always be somewhat higher than the number of hulls/cargo holds needed to move it. Available trade drives transport, and excess hold capacity will cdreate a demand for a spot market. Larger ships will tend to create larger lots.
Con:Bigger ships will be able to carry freight more flexibly and produce less excess lots; bigger flow will tend towards better organization and less chance of errors/overages creating excess or errors for the spot. Bigger ports are likely to have better infrastructure integration with the shipping companies/owners, leading to less excess. Increased traffic will make ity easier to reroute excess to another contract carrier, and not put it on the spot market.


More at low volume ports

Pro Less traffic means more liklihood of insufficient cargo space for existing needs. Ships are smaller at low volume ports, and thus less flexible in terms of cargo carriage. Lower traffic creates a slower drive to increase hulls due to time delay -thus a surge in cargo will take longer to effect the traffic to the planet, and thus sit longer.
Smaller ships will tend to encourage smaller lots.
Con:
Low volume port means less volume of cargo - traffic likely determines port type. Poor port is correlated with less planetary output. Lower traffic may produce very static carrier arrangements. If smaller ports are more likely to have bigger spot markets, the implication is that more shipping is done by use of the spot market, not contract or in-house; this increases risk, and lowers profit; production may well be more closely syncronised with available hulls, resulting in much lower spot market.


Independent of shipping volume
Pro:This mainly suggests that the trade the players will have access to is essentially the error term in any trade equation, and that it is essentially unpredictable regradless of the flow, partly because it is such a small portion of trade in high volume ports (and thus unstable) or it is a large part of an essentially volitile (smaller) market on low traffic ports. Also, both of the above models operate at all levels, and either cancel out, or act to increase variance, and thus reduce predictability. Convenient.
Pro: Somewhat of a tautology. Assumes that trade follows statistical ideas of variance and error which may be rubbish; is convenient, and thus likely an oversimplification or handwave.
 
The problem is that, quite literally, in 1984, the Big Ship universe was grafted on to the small ship universe.

All the encounter tables (before and since) have been small ship universe.

Bk2 isn't Broken; it's perfectly serviceable and supports a non-modern trade model.

the time lags are a huge issue. First off, most worlds will have modern economies on world; in such economies, time delays are monetary losses. Warehousing, need for materials, etc.

Fundamentally, in capital equations, if you can turn around your money for $50 profit in 1 day, that's better than $349 profit in 7 days... Especially if you have to house the goods.

So, if you can find a local market, there is little reason to ship outsystem, since you can't make contract as easily, nor can you be certain there is current need outsystem.
 
AKAramis said:
the time lags are a huge issue. First off, most worlds will have modern economies on world; in such economies, time delays are monetary losses. Warehousing, need for materials, etc.

Fundamentally, in capital equations, if you can turn around your money for $50 profit in 1 day, that's better than $349 profit in 7 days... Especially if you have to house the goods.

So, if you can find a local market, there is little reason to ship outsystem, since you can't make contract as easily, nor can you be certain there is current need outsystem.

The HUGE US trade figures/imbalance would suggest that there are some factors that mitigate the benefits of 'local supply' and its short travel times/costs.

[but I like the point about Planetary Trade requiring a 'modern' trade model (due to communications) and Interplanetary Trade requiring more of an Age-of-sail 'speculative' trade model (due to communications time lag).]
 
atpollard said:
AKAramis said:
the time lags are a huge issue. First off, most worlds will have modern economies on world; in such economies, time delays are monetary losses. Warehousing, need for materials, etc.

Fundamentally, in capital equations, if you can turn around your money for $50 profit in 1 day, that's better than $349 profit in 7 days... Especially if you have to house the goods.

So, if you can find a local market, there is little reason to ship outsystem, since you can't make contract as easily, nor can you be certain there is current need outsystem.

The HUGE US trade figures/imbalance would suggest that there are some factors that mitigate the benefits of 'local supply' and its short travel times/costs.

[but I like the point about Planetary Trade requiring a 'modern' trade model (due to communications) and Interplanetary Trade requiring more of an Age-of-sail 'speculative' trade model (due to communications time lag).]

It's not so much Travel time, as ability to turn around the cash, which is a function of both commo times and travel times.

The Other thing to remember:

Shipping outsystem, your costs are at least KCr1 per Td...

So to make Cr100/Td, you have to actually make Cr1100/Td on the goods, while local shipping is likely to be far less. (Heck, given the costs, I can run a streamlined merchant for on-world one-day shipping (or less-- figure 8 hours per run) for about Cr200/Ton or less (probably about Cr100/Ton) if I can get the clearances. I can reduce that to about Cr60/ton by not having a J-Drive....
 
I think planetside cargo transport is more likely to be sailing ship and airship for ecological reasons especially on high pop industrial worlds. Otherwise some planets would not have lasted as long as they have in the present Traveller Universe and the Empire would have collapsed far earlier. Expensive airports are not necessary as the airships can float right up to the docking mast at the depo.

More flexible and economical transport system too!

(this is where i meant to post this as opposed to on the other thread :roll: )
 
Voodoo B Do said:
I think planetside cargo transport is more likely to be sailing ship and airship ...

I have researched both concepts for my setting, and I was not happy
about the results.

While futuristic airships are suitable for a number of tasks, the trans-
port of bulk goods with airships would most likely not work well in a
Traveller setting, where they would have to compete with grav vehic-
les.

Sailing ships have turned out to be no good idea at all for a Traveller
setting, except perhaps as luxury playthings. They are simply too un-
reliable to be of much use for any modern economy.

Remember, we are discussing a setting where clean fusion energy is
available, together with hydrogen engines, fuel cells and solar power.
There is no need to save fossil fuels, as no one uses them anymore,
and also no need to save energy.
 
EDG said:
Plus, airships and sailing ships are pretty darn useless on a vacuum world...

If the gravity is low enough, 'lift' isn't an issue.
... and you can tack using the solar winds. :)

[Too steampunk for my taste.]
 
atpollard said:
EDG said:
Plus, airships and sailing ships are pretty darn useless on a vacuum world...

If the gravity is low enough, 'lift' isn't an issue.
... and you can tack using the solar winds. :)

[Too steampunk for my taste.]


Actual physics question here: what would be the behavior of a lifting gas on in a vaccum ? Assuming the envelope was strong enough, obviously.
 
captainjack23 said:
atpollard said:
EDG said:
Plus, airships and sailing ships are pretty darn useless on a vacuum world...

If the gravity is low enough, 'lift' isn't an issue.
... and you can tack using the solar winds. :)

[Too steampunk for my taste.]


Actual physics question here: what would be the behavior of a lifting gas on in a vaccum ? Assuming the envelope was strong enough, obviously.

The gas (like all matter) has mass and will attract all other matter - so it adds weight [and it inflates the shell].
 
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