Captain Jack's Guide to Profitable Passengers and Cargo

captainjack23

Cosmic Mongoose
As promised:

Some thoughts on Speculative Trade and Cargo, and Freight to a lesser extent

I should note that Aramis did lots of basework here, and is the coauthor; [/b]he disagrees about some of the Meta trade issues I posit, but is fine with these rules. Thanks to all else for input and feedback. To begin.


I. The speculative trade

From the players perspective, they will be less involved in the system of interworld trade on a major level, or the planned/contract trade (unless they get good steady safe jobs with a shipping line...how likely is that?)

I go into this in more detail, as do others on the forums, but the main premise I work from is this: That players will have more of the spec side in front of them, and the cargo that's available for that (and freight) the is most likely to be excess or last minute loads not accounted for by regular shipping.

So, I'll suggest that the freight lots only have to be considered a fraction of what would likely exist; and the spec lots similarly considered -but with more available than freight.

So, yes, a hi pop industrial tech 15 planet may only have a few tons available - for the players. On this planet, for this week, the merchant marine is very efficient, and the brokers too. This is what missed the boat (the boat being the half gigaton freighter that just left).

Also, I’d have the available lots change every week to increase variability. A sudden giant surplus (great roll, blazingly good effect) could be because a ship is late, and brokers have no interest in waiting to get the synthicaf bean harvest moving... and the captain knows a guy (who knows a guy, who has this dude who owes him a favor in charge of the ministry of trade...)

That said, unless I misunderstood the rules in 3.2, the spec trade cargo is essentially open ended – once a price is agreed on, the trader can just start shoveling till his hold is full. While simple, this pretty much kills the incentive for passengers and really limits the desirability of freight. So, I think there should be limits to availability – but since I’m positing a volatile spot market for players, it need not be too balanced or effected by the planets actual trade economics beyond what items are available.

That said, I'm thinking that the limits should be similar to the freight lots. The actual types of items would be generated as in 3.2, with a few small changes noted below. The freight rules work very well, are easy and quick, and give players some (often) hard choices. So, first, I’d propose making the spec rules work similarly; with the obvious difference that one knows what’s in the containers, and where they are delivered to is unspecified.



Additionally, looking at just the available cargo (freight and spec) from a spot market perspective can allow less worry about destination/source interactions.... a smaller sample of the cargos will be much less reflective of the actual trade - so, as long as there’s lots of variance in what the players may get, balancing isn't as much of an issue (particularly using a basic model for the basic version of the game)


Some lots perhaps should be small - do we want 600 tons of diamonds or sci-fi gem equiv? So, they'd use the above ranges (d6x100, d6x10, etc) but in cubic meters instead of dtons; perhaps even Kg for lots that will never fill even one container or subcontainer

Most of the small lots seem to specialty goods in any case -limited to specific trade codes, so probably just having some as size S and the rest unchanged should do without stretching credulity too much ("you bought six-hundred displacement tons of TL15 micro cpu chips.... and then sold them? All as one lot? ...That’s it, I quit ")

I'm not sure how much it is needed to try and balance the lots by type – for instance metal in smaller lots, grain in bigger ones; given that these are the spot loads, they may represent partial lots that overfilled the regular freight hull or lots that came up too short (profit or space) to be worthwhile for the mega freighters to lift. So, there are probably 10000 and 100000 dTon lots - they just aren't available or practical for character traders.

Standard container discussion goes here for lack of a better place:
Standard containers are likely to be a major part of interstellar trade; so from several campaigns, and my own, this design seems to work well with the basic freight and mail lot sizes, which one assumes are sealed and point to point shipping. YMMV
Code:
Containers, ImpMerchSpec, owner transportable, single use.

Bulk =100dton
Standard =5ton
Small = 1ton
subcontainer = 1/10 dTon (1.4 cubic meters) (the mid passage allowance for luggage, I believe)

So, to start with the first goal:
Make it more consistent with the freight table.

Assume that both spec and freight are the spot market - mainly leftovers and late arrivals. Works if the system is explicitly identified as being aimed at characters as small opportunistic carriers. (Classic tramp freight)

Step 1: Figure out how much is likely to be there.

Assumption: these are the lots of commodities on the quayside, or in brokers warehouses -they are containerized and ready to go -generally terms are as delivered to docking bay; cost includes container, which are owner openable.
Stuff, in custom lots, probably requiring transport and packing, seem more of an event-driven roleplaying issue.

AKAramis wrote:
I'd suggest a trade index based off of TL and Pop. (THe nature of the goods is determined by Tradecodes).

Realistically, it should be based upon some rough value conversion and include a resources index of some kind, but that way is too picayune for my gaming needs.

Let's Use TradeIndex=Sqrt(TLCd*PopCd) where TLCd is the Tech Level as a number and PopCd is the Population code as a number.

<snip>
Trade index (by Aramis):
Code:

Population
TL 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
0 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 3 3
1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3
2 1 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 4
3 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 5 5
4 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 6
5 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7
6 2 3 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8
7 3 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8
8 3 4 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9
9 3 4 5 6 7 7 8 8 9 9
10 3 4 5 6 7 8 8 9 9 10
11 3 5 6 7 7 8 9 9 10 10
12 3 5 6 7 8 8 9 10 10 11
13 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 10 11 11
14 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 11 12
15 4 5 7 8 9 9 10 11 12 12
16 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 11 12 13
17 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 12 13
18 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 13
19 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 12 13 14
20 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 13 14


Use the TI table from Aramis (above): for any planet
SPOT MARKET LEVEL = (TI+ 1d6-3)


The spot market level is the fancy term for total number of lots available…

Notes on volitility
The variable dice (1d6-3) for initial TI allows for some variance due to planets being more or less productive, diversified, and /or unusually resource rich. I'd also optionally suggest that it not be rolled till the players get there (the base pop*Tech is in the traders guide book) which allows for assumption of cyclic production, trade booms and failures & screwing with players heads and pocketbooks. You’ll get some oddities, the TI 1 planet suddenly jumping to Spot marketlevel4, for instance, but write those off to an oil strike/dotcom boom or some such. Overall, we don’t want don't want too many lots (make the players make hard choices), but do want some variability -plus, only the worst planets should have the potential for no lots.

Important: as with freight, available lots work as in freight & can't be broken up for purchase. Unlike freight, they have no set destination, and can be broken up for sale at the new owners discretion.


Step 2. Determine the actual contents of the lots as in MGT 3.2 (d66);
One change suggested: allow repeat rolls to stay - but roll lot size separately for each. The lots are separate.

Step 3. Determine the size of the Lots:
Use the following tables for the size determinant (remember - we are dealing only with player size loads):

Some goods will be defined as small lots: -3 to size. Any result below 0 is in lots of d6 x1/10 dTon (1.4 cubic Meters).
Code:
Roll   Lot size by DTonnage
0-     = d6 x 1/10dTon
1,2,3  = d6x1 ton
4,5    = d6x10 ton
6-7    = d6x100 ton
8+     = d6x1000 ton

+2 if TI 12+
+1 if TI 9-11
-1 if TI  3-5
-2 if TI  2-
-3 if designated as small lot
The above mods by TI are pretty much optional, depending on how much one wants the complexity of the source culture to effect the lot size.

I’d keep the small lot mod in any case.



I'm tempted to add bulk lots (+5), but anything at all in the 1000dTon range is likely out of range for the players hold space. To some extent, I included that as a booby prize for high TI worlds -their leftovers are pretty damn big, often as not.

Explanation and assumptions:
For the mods to the size table break points are vaguely described as: high stellar+(TI 12+) space using (TI 9-11), basically not industrialized (TI 3-5) and primitive (TI 0-2)
Assumptions: primitives (TI 0-2) have either very little, or very small hand made lots of interest. Not industrialized planets (not necc the trade code rather TI 3-5), seldom produce big lots of much anything due too either small population, or low tech.
Space using planets (TI 9-11) are integrated into the imperial economy and standardized trade habits, and high stellar + (TI 12+) just plain has easy mass production of anything. (Note that for a TI of 12, the minimum is 10 pop, 14 tech; for a 13, the minimums are 16 tech, 10 pop.)

The non-modified TI range (6-8) represents the backwaters that don't produce much for trade, or are just starting to get integrated into the economy.

Step 4.determine final price per lot as in spec trade rules in MGT 3.2

-Keeping in mind that the amounts are not open ended.

Step 5: Find yerself a sucker.



II. The passenger trade

Thoughts on Passenger travel

There seem to be several serious problems with passenger travel as presented in 3.2 MGT[/b]

1. It’s a loss compared to all other kinds of cargo and freight when support costs are included (Stewarding requirements, mostly).
2. Even if it wasn’t a loss, it needs to be enough better than freight (1Kcr/Ton) to be worth the hassle. Typically passenger profit needs to have a substantially higher margin than cargo to be worth the extra trouble (cargo doesn't snore, sing, argue politics, practice the electocordian, talk back, demand better food, get sick, sue the captain, or hijack the ship)

So, my goal is to make it profitable both in terms of the basic freight costs, and then some more to make it worthwhile.

I'm using freight largely as presented in 3.2, and the above CaptainJack/Aramis trade model for spec trades as profit comparison. Again, most of the info is in the thread on passengers x distance. The main point is that profit decreases more quickly than a simple linear increase in passage cost (1x 2x 3x 4x etc) mainly due to the increase in fuel volume per jump. Small ships feel the pinch faster than larger ships (around 600 dTons); in fact J2 is the max profit jump for the small ships; after that it starts running at a loss. Bigger ships top out at J3 before the loss starts.


Suggestions for profitable passengers

1. Increase the passengers per steward.

I'd suggest at a minimum that a steward should be able to handle is (level +1)*2 high passage passengers. With a minimum of one level 1 steward on the crew. lev 0 stewards are basically porters, maid service and cabana boys. They need a manager & the ship needs a purser as a minimum.

Count Mid passengers as 1/4 a passenger each. (Round up if needed - make those S/C work if they want to have passengers).

In most cases, stewards should double bunk. Obviously, with bigger crews, the head passenger would have his own bunk as a senior officer (purser); and probably the highly-strung Chef d’quisin, also…

Assuming a steward 2 able to support 6 passengers, we have income of 36000 Cr for 24 tons + 2 tons (steward will half bunk); (This is ignoring overhead which we’ll finesse; and see below for the effects of luggage).

We get 36000 for 25 tons for 1.36 kCr per ton of passenger, which means 36% more profit than freight, and cash up front. That’s a good incentive to not use the space for freight. Plus, when one has loaded all the freight and spec, the only way to make money is passengers. See notes below about the luggage allowance.

2 Reconfigure the ticket prices some.

Increase and rescale the cost of a passage by range
Set the base HP cost for a J1 ticket at 6000Cr
J1 and J2 passages are unchanged per parsec. They sell for 6Kcr and 12kcr respectively.

Code:
Basic HP costs, by parsecs per Jump.

J1 6000Cr
J2 12000Cr
J3 20,000Cr
J4 30,000Cr
J5 50,000Cr
J6 market price, ask your server.

Above J2, the trip becomes a premium ticket, as the time saving is substantial enough that carriers will charge for it; plus the profit numbers start to get tight at J3 for most ships. (Details on the forum thread “passengers x distance” I think…)

I'd suggest that a J-3 ticket cost 20Kcr sold as a "direct ticket";
J4 and 5 are sold as "express" tickets for 30K and 50kcr;
J6 is courier class, and heck- 75Kcr? 100Kcr?

Note that a standard ticket can be purchased for any of the above routes - as multiples of a J-1 ticket. You get there slower, but cheaper.


3. Mess up the elegant simplicity of HP/MP by restructuring types of passage.
I'd say making mid passage cost 4000 to make it work (as a loss reducer), and allow a special economy mid at 2500 allowing double occupancy.

Mid passage has less luggage allowance and messes like the crew.

Econ have rationed water, and either pay as you go or vended food or are expected to carry their own (bus model)

High passage has its own food and dining, at least the equiv of a good restaurant.

I'd suggest that Hp bump econ mids before they bump standard mid passengers. The ticket brings in a bit less, but having only one passenger to support probably brings it up to a push. And all else being equal, one frugal passenger is likely less trouble than 2 stinky crowded MRE eating passengers any day.

One additional bonus of passengers becomes apparent when the trade rules are considered. Since characters only have access to a limited number of lots of freight and spec (with the changes above), passengers allow a stacked revenue source - in short, one can't get more freight once the lots are gone, and if you have no cabins, you've topped out your profit/ton for this run.

Notes on luggage space.

Mid passage has (for convenience) a 1/10 dTon (1.4 cubic meters) luggage allowance included in the cabin.

Econ mids share it, so be nice!



The problem here, as ever, is the HP luggage allowance: 1dTon per. I'm loath to change it, so I won’t, too much. If one assumes the 1-ton luggage allowance for a HP is extra to the cabin space, the profit/ton hits 1.12. Which, with overhead might bring it down to somewhat less than 10% more profit than freight. This may not be enough to justify carrying High passengers, and I'm unwilling to raise the basic price much more (see below on cost vs. income).

One solution is to bury the extra dTon in the deck plan as part of the living space...not the best solution for a variety of reasons, but a solution that is quick and easy.

Another is to have a basic HP include 1/4dton separate from the cabin with the option to upgrade to a full dTon for 500 extra credits. Any more is charged at standard freight.

6 Standard HP = 24 tons +1.5 tons +2 tons = 1.31Kcr/ton.
If they all upgrade, getting a break on freight costs, (essentially a 250cr discount over freight) we have 24 +2 +6 tons with 36000+ (.5*6) =39000Kcr for 32 tons =1.22Kcr/ton. Not a bad bonus over freight. Plus, it's cash up front, its profit stacks with freight and cargo, and you get to space any hijackers if they fail (no doubt always amusing in a world that has a low passage lottery)

Thoughts on cost vs. income
I considered upping the ticket price more, but looking at the cost of living table, 5000 is a months expenses for a soc C (12) character. This suggest to me that high passage is indeed first class, and that there should be sufficient people to support it, if one assumes 1/36 of the population can dump one months rent and food and fun into a passage at will. Less well heeled folks (game designers, scientists) can probably save for more or less months and get a Mid passage if even soc 7 & up (or less time for an econ double). Below that, we have steerage & the dread low berth for the lowborn…

My overall goal was to treat it much less like modern airplane or train travel, and more like a very early steamship or sail route: one does not commute or take quick jaunts.... unless one is rich. But, it’s possible for most people to travel, eventually (say, to colonize or just emigrate, or for a once in a lifetime trip), just not frequently. That’s for the rich, the important, and the people with business expense accounts (the category that I suspect will be source of the unbumpable J3 & up high passages w/. limited luggage.)

Okay, enjoy !
And Avast, ye lubbers ! That thar be a sealed 32/a 40 dton environment bioactive timed delivery container t' rgina highport, so handsomely, lads, handsomely does it.....

Cap
 
There is no ruleset that explicityly states the baggage allowance as cargo space. I've always assumed it to be one metric ton. (In other words, I use 1Ton Displacement of Cargo per 10 high passengers.

The Baggage allowance is explicit in CT/MT for mids: 100kg. Not 1.4 cubic meters, but 100kg. (Note that a 100kg baggage is likely only about 0.5 cubic meters of clothing.)
 
Traveller has a pretty consistent history with regards to passengers. There are only 3 classes of passengers:

High Passage: Private room and Steward Service
Mid Passage: Space available (on tramp freighters at least) and minimal Steward Service
Low Passage: Cryogenic, Cold Sleep, Suspended Animation etc.

Official Traveller has never allowed an Economy Class (although I know of lot of alternate TUs that do, mine included).

I think including an Economy Class as official Traveller will not be accepted, but I think it could be mentioned in a sidebar as an optional rule.

I like what you have done and hope it is accepted by Gar and Marc.
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
Traveller has a pretty consistent history with regards to passengers. There are only 3 classes of passengers:

High Passage: Private room and Steward Service
Mid Passage: Space available (on tramp freighters at least) and minimal Steward Service
Low Passage: Cryogenic, Cold Sleep, Suspended Animation etc.

Official Traveller has never allowed an Economy Class (although I know of lot of alternate TUs that do, mine included).

I think including an Economy Class as official Traveller will not be accepted, but I think it could be mentioned in a sidebar as an optional rule.

I like what you have done and hope it is accepted by Gar and Marc.

Actually, there ARE references to steerage in TNE. I don't recall if they are in the econ rules.

Also, Working Passage is another type known in all editions.
 
my mistake Aramis, you are quite correct.

If TNE used a Steerage Class, that might be enough of a door to allow it in MGT. I just didn't want to have an invented class that was completely different than all previous versions. No reason not to pick from TNE as well as CT and MT (and even T4) if it works and fits the rest of the rules.

As I said, I have always houseruled a class of passengers that double-up on staterooms (like the crew often does).
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
my mistake Aramis, you are quite correct.

If TNE used a Steerage Class, that might be enough of a door to allow it in MGT. I just didn't want to have an invented class that was completely different than all previous versions. No reason not to pick from TNE as well as CT and MT (and even T4) if it works and fits the rest of the rules.

As I said, I have always houseruled a class of passengers that double-up on staterooms (like the crew often does).

well, we're actually on the same page here- my understandng was that double occupancy for passenegers wasn't disalowwed explicitly, but just never really discussed directly.

Luckily, the econ double isn't really needed to make passenger travel work. It just is an alternative to MP as a loss reducer (one doesn't actually profit on MP, and may lose a bit, but still preferable to running with empty cabins)
 
captainjack23 said:
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
my mistake Aramis, you are quite correct.

If TNE used a Steerage Class, that might be enough of a door to allow it in MGT. I just didn't want to have an invented class that was completely different than all previous versions. No reason not to pick from TNE as well as CT and MT (and even T4) if it works and fits the rest of the rules.

As I said, I have always houseruled a class of passengers that double-up on staterooms (like the crew often does).

well, we're actually on the same page here- my understandng was that double occupancy for passenegers wasn't disalowwed explicitly, but just never really discussed directly.

Luckily, the econ double isn't really needed to make passenger travel work. It just is an alternative to MP as a loss reducer (one doesn't actually profit on MP, and may lose a bit, but still preferable to running with empty cabins)

CT Bk2 is explicit: every person (crew or passenger) needs their own accomodation. Only Bk5 designs allowed double occupancy and then only for crew. (Bk5 does not discuss passengers except in the formulae.)

MT allows crew DO, but not passengers. It doesn't say you can't put them in small staterooms, either, but since the term stateeroom is used exclusively... it's implied. (MT Page 82 explicitly says passengers need staterooms)

TNE allows it outside of imperial space (regency), but I don't have the books to check with me (I'm in between classes, in my planning time). Steerage is, IIRC, in one of the supplements for TNE (World Tamer's, IIRC).

T20 did not include steerage since we (the playtesters, myself included) didn't feel it was justified, and we worked out for hunter the reduced price for DO passengers.
 
AKAramis said:
CT Bk2 is explicit: every person (crew or passenger) needs their own accomodation. Only Bk5 designs allowed double occupancy and then only for crew. (Bk5 does not discuss passengers except in the formulae.)
Actually, CT-LBB2 states on p.14: "In some starships (especially exploratory vessels, military ships, and privately-owned starships), double occupancy is allowed in staterooms."

So Double Occupancy has been there from the beginning, just not for passengers in the OTU. IYTU YMMV.
 
Golan2072 said:
AKAramis said:
CT Bk2 is explicit: every person (crew or passenger) needs their own accomodation. Only Bk5 designs allowed double occupancy and then only for crew. (Bk5 does not discuss passengers except in the formulae.)
Actually, CT-LBB2 states on p.14: "In some starships (especially exploratory vessels, military ships, and privately-owned starships), double occupancy is allowed in staterooms."

So Double Occupancy has been there from the beginning, just not for passengers in the OTU. IYTU YMMV.

In either case, I stand corrected...still, the change is possible, at least, and even if not, just takes away one option.
 
Golan2072 said:
Actually, CT-LBB2 states on p.14: "In some starships (especially exploratory vessels, military ships, and privately-owned starships), double occupancy is allowed in staterooms."

So Double Occupancy has been there from the beginning, just not for passengers in the OTU. IYTU YMMV.
I explain that by saying that Mid Passages are vouchers that can be exchanged for single occupancy starship tickets. So if you pay by Mid Passage, you're entitled to a stateroom to yourself. But if you show up with 4,000 credits in your hands, any captain will be willing to sell you a ticket for half a stateroom. I call it Economy Passage. (And IMTU some of the less well-funded agencies do issue Economy Passage vouchers).


Hans
 
rancke said:
Golan2072 said:
Actually, CT-LBB2 states on p.14: "In some starships (especially exploratory vessels, military ships, and privately-owned starships), double occupancy is allowed in staterooms."

So Double Occupancy has been there from the beginning, just not for passengers in the OTU. IYTU YMMV.
I explain that by saying that Mid Passages are vouchers that can be exchanged for single occupancy starship tickets. So if you pay by Mid Passage, you're entitled to a stateroom to yourself. But if you show up with 4,000 credits in your hands, any captain will be willing to sell you a ticket for half a stateroom. I call it Economy Passage. (And IMTU some of the less well-funded agencies do issue Economy Passage vouchers).


Hans

Financially, it should be 4500, Hans, since the life support costs double for that SR... from 1000 per jump to 2000/jump. Thus the base income for a mid is only KCr7+LS, so sharing would be KCr3.5+LS
 
Along the frontier, where probably most of the free traders are active
(at least most of those run by PCs), offering passenger service and of-
fering economy passages could be more of an investment than of a
normal profit-oriented business deal.

Imagine a frontier world, let us name it "Pharos IV" - perhaps a young
colony on a remote water world. The colonists do not see a free trader
very often, and of course there is no liner service available.

However, Jack urgently needs medical treatment on Samarran, and Jill
wants to study at the university on Manticore. The first trader they ask
for passages tells them that he would make no profit with passengers,
and therefore does not sell passages. The second trader offers them
passages, and even agrees to sell those passages at reduced "economy
rates", just for those nice people of Pharos IV.

At first glance the Trader I seems a clever guy who runs a profitable
ship. But then, who will be more welcome on Pharos IV, whom will the
colonists choose for the best deals, and who has contacts and perhaps
even helpful friends on Pharos IV ?
Right, Trader II, who condsidered the passages as an investment in
the future, not only as a usual "deal".

Of course, this "social" side of the passenger trade was not the immedia-
te subject of your design evaluation. However, it is something which
should not be forgotten.
 
rust said:
Along the frontier, where probably most of the free traders are active
(at least most of those run by PCs), offering passenger service and of-
fering economy passages could be more of an investment than of a
normal profit-oriented business deal.

Imagine a frontier world, let us name it "Pharos IV" - perhaps a young
colony on a remote water world. The colonists do not see a free trader
very often, and of course there is no liner service available.

However, Jack urgently needs medical treatment on Samarran, and Jill
wants to study at the university on Manticore. The first trader they ask
for passages tells them that he would make no profit with passengers,
and therefore does not sell passages. The second trader offers them
passages, and even agrees to sell those passages at reduced "economy
rates", just for those nice people of Pharos IV.

At first glance the Trader I seems a clever guy who runs a profitable
ship. But then, who will be more welcome on Pharos IV, whom will the
colonists choose for the best deals, and who has contacts and perhaps
even helpful friends on Pharos IV ?
Right, Trader II, who condsidered the passages as an investment in
the future, not only as a usual "deal".

Of course, this "social" side of the passenger trade was not the immedia-
te subject of your design evaluation. However, it is something which
should not be forgotten.

An excellent point ! Too which I'd add, trader I is a fool if he has unused cabin space and doesn't use it , even as a loss reducer.
 
Actually, rust, no, not a good post.

The REAL WORLD answer is that the folks keep raising the bid until it's worth it to a trader.

Any trader with empty staterooms and no major paranoia will take on passengers. But, given the rates, there is no reason why they'd be on the ships in the first place unless they were government mandates.

In general, historical passage costs are about what a liner can make on freight plus about 10% for the same volume... and a passage requires a good bit of space. A small cabin is typically 10x8x8, or about 6.4 registry tons, plus a seat in the dining hall, for another registry ton,plus 8x8x3' (2RT) of hall, plus another 2-10 registry tons of amenities... (5 Registry Tons approximates closely a Displacement Ton from Traveller) And, until the 1950's, most liners were mixed designs.... the use of cargo aircraft killed the liner as a means of going places.

Since a cheaper means of travel (air) is available, almost no scheduled ocean liners are running "routes" any more as people transports; they are now instead resorts on the water. Air travel is both faster and ever so slightly cheaper in the 1960's, and almost all passenger ships built since then are plus resorts, and many of the survivors were converted. Ironically, aside from cruise ships, most passengers go in spare cabins on large freight vessels... and again, do so not for transport, but for peace and quiet (and often the guarantee of no children under 8...).

In traveller, however, there is no option besides ships. So, the price HAS to raise to the point that it's at least equivalent to cargo space to consider it. And, given the value of speculation, anyone who can, will speculate, and most goods will be moved for an investor's benefit... Most players, once they realize they can make twice as much by careful speculation under Bk2, Bk7 or T20, they stop taking freight as primary, and instead use freight to fill out after filling with spec. So, in all honesty, passengers need to equate to speculation favorably, tho not equally, since the risk is higher on speculation.

So the price per Td for passengers needs to be higher than nominal freight, and below nominal "A-A Port" speculation (where you have a +4 difference due to a broker, +8 if you allow brokers to lower purchase cost).
Because, speculation is more risky than passengers, it needs a higher reward than passengers. Likewise, passengers are more of a risk than most cargoes, and thus need a higher per ton reward. If the laws do not permit, several things happen:
1) Legit ships stop being built for carrying passengers
2) Illegit ships carry passengers for a suitably higher price, and in less safe conditions
3) A few idiots lose money and reduce their margin for hope of goodwill by carrying people who are leaving, and most are unlikely to return... at least based upon the CT, MT, TNE, T4, T20, GT, and MoTrav Dr3.2 tables. (This is because people are reduced for target population being lower pop or lower TL, and raised for higher pop or TL... the City Magnet model.) In the long run, they are far more likely to go broke. Even under MoTrav's rather generous operating figures, it's still tight. a hundred credits a ton is a major issue.
 
In the real world, the trader has to sell the passage for "cost + X". As
long as he gets "+X", he is better off than leaving with empty cabins.
And if he charges more for the passage than his potential passagers
can afford or are willing to pay, they will not accept the "+X", and he
is out of the passenger trade.

The important question would be, who needs what more: The trader the
passengers, or the passengers the passage - a supply and demand pro-
blem, as usual in trade. And as usual both parties will meet somewhere
in the middle, with a decent profit for the trader, but affordable passages
for the passengers.

On the frontier, this could well mean "economy passages", where the ac-
tual profit for the trader is comparatively low, but the advantages from
offering passages and making contacts on planet offset the reduced pro-
fit from the passage itself.

Now, what is wrong with this idea ?
 
rust said:
In the real world, the trader has to sell the passage for "cost + X". As
long as he gets "+X", he is better off than leaving with empty cabins.
And if he charges more for the passage than his potential passagers
can afford or are willing to pay, they will not accept the "+X", and he
is out of the passenger trade.

The important question would be, who needs what more: The trader the
passengers, or the passengers the passage - a supply and demand pro-
blem, as usual in trade. And as usual both parties will meet somewhere
in the middle, with a decent profit for the trader, but affordable passages
for the passengers.

On the frontier, this could well mean "economy passages", where the ac-
tual profit for the trader is comparatively low, but the advantages from
offering passages and making contacts on planet offset the reduced pro-
fit from the passage itself.

Now, what is wrong with this idea ?

We know the costs and th listed base value. Given the costs, economy passage where price is counting financing... the current pricing in MoTrav Draft 3.2 is LESS THAN COST ALREADY. Only a fully paid off ship with a full hold is making profits.

Let's take it the other way: a 400Td Type R needs to make Cr900 or so per ton of non-drive to meet the mortage, before salaries. this means the cost per stateroom needs to average 3600+LS to make payments. And it will not always be full.

Paid off, she needs only about Cr600/Td, but still, that's Cr2400+LS...

Since LS is KCr2/month, and a month is 4 weeks, and a trip 2, that means that one needs Cr4600 to make payments, or Cr3400 if debt free... Putting two people in the space means needing Cr2300+LS each...or Cr3300 each.

If the local market won't support routinely filling, then no sane bank will let you install non-crew staterooms on a financed boat. (and, according to some commercial fishing operators in Alaska, the mortage is 30-50% of their expenses per ship...)

Which means starting merchants won't have the passenger space to carry them. Or, the price goes up to match.

Now, given the need for stewards, one must remember that passengers take more than one stateroom. (1.1 for mids, 2 for HP, assuming Steward 1... and draft 3.2.) So financed boat needs Cr5100/MP, and Cr9200/HP without paying salaries... so lets add a steward salary share, too... Financed boat now needs Cr5200/MP and Cr10,200/HP... and DO MP is (4100+2.2xLS)/2 per each: Cr3150 each/DOMP
Paid off boat: Cr3840/MP and Cr9480/HP.... and DOMP is 1370+1100=1470/DOMP

And we haven't included risk, filling percentages (and thus lost revenue which must be made up when full), and the rules (as yet) do not allow DO in MoTrav... nor have we amortized the staterooms' MCr0.5 cost (over 25J/year, 40 years, 1000 jumps, that's 500,000/1000=Cr500/jump/sr, which raises to Cr550/MP and Cr1000/HP above pure cargo of the same relative costs.

CT shipping prices work quite well given Bk2 designs at J1... tight, but doable, and expected lifespans of 60+ years, so RoI is low, but good.
 
According to the description of the Steward skill in the Playtest Document,
a steward is only required on ships which offer high passage.

So, on the frontier the trader may just as well have no steward on board,
and sell the "surplus" crew cabin at the "economy rate" to two additional
passengers ("economy passengers" having no steward service, which to
me seems a reasonable assumption).

A debt free ship (and others might be rare on the frontier, for the reasons
you mentioned) should be able to sell an economy passage for Cr 3000,
which is 3/4 of what a trader would normally charge for a middle passage,
and a convincing reason for the passengers to choose that ship. Which al-
so reduces the trader's risk to have to leave with empty cabins.

Of course, you are absolutely right that the rules make the passenger tra-
de a strange business, and that a truly clever trader probably would have
no passengers cabins on his ship.

However, the small trader ships are built with staterooms / cabins, and so
the owner of the ship has to make the best of it - which, in this case, to
me seems to be to "stay alive" while making the customers happy enough
to come back - for passages, but also for other deals (freight and specu-
lative goods) with the trader they know well.

In my setting the average "frontier trader" also takes "small orders" from
his customers, with one ton of carge space set aside for this kind of busi-
ness. These "small orders" could be anything, from a data crystal (that
new book on Andermani history) to a dozen cans of fruit salad (quite a
luxury on a water world).

Of course, the trader rarely makes any profit on this stuff, and has a lot
of work fulfilling the orders - but he has a high number of customers, who
will remember him whenever they have to offer a more profitable deal
("Thanks for that sonar spare part. And while we are at it, I could use a
dozen aquasleds for the algae farm ...").
 
Mid passage IS an economy rate already.

And, per page "Spacecraft Operations 8"
Passage
Passenger travel within the Imperium has been standardised into four overarching categories – High, Middle, Working and Low. In all cases, passage is paid per jump, and it is assumed that the ship will take between one and three weeks to deliver the passenger to its destination (allowing enough time to fly out, jump for a week, then travel to the destination world).

High Passage: The passenger receives the best possible treatment. The passenger receives a stateroom and one ton of cargo space for baggage, and can expect high-quality entertainment. One level of Steward skill is required for every High Passage passenger on board a ship (so a character with Steward 3 could care for three passengers). High Passage costs Cr. 5,000 x the distance jumped.

Middle Passage: Middle passage is generally sold on a stand-by basis (so Middle Passengers can be 'bumped' by High Passengers who arrive later – a ship will only take Middle Passengers if it cannot fill its staterooms with High Passage clients). Having Steward 0 allows a character to care for up to five Middle Passengers or Working Passengers; extra levels of Steward count for five people each. A baggage allowance of 100 kg is permitted. Middle Passage costs Cr. 4,000 x distance jumped.

See, the thing is that if you can't keep all the cargo/passenger space producing, and turning a profit, you have a problem: you're going to lose that ship. The bank won't let you buy a ship that can't make money.

Given the rules as a model of the TU reality, there is a disconnect: you can't pay for staterooms at that cost system. (If you use Jn+1 you can pay for J1-3...)
 
Your quote describes how passenger travel within the Imperium has been
standardised, but frontier regions are not necessarily within the Imperium
or follow its standards. And the fact that someone with Steward 0 is allo-
wed to care for middle passengers is hardly a proof that the crew position
of Steward is required for economy passengers, I think.

And in my proposal the cabin space does provide a profit, although a small
one, while the same trader would make no profit at all if he insisted on a
middle passage fare.

We will obviously not come to an agreement on this, but this is hardly a
problem - you play the game your way, I play it my way.
 
rust said:
Your quote describes how passenger travel within the Imperium has been
standardised, but frontier regions are not necessarily within the Imperium
or follow its standards. And the fact that someone with Steward 0 is allo-
wed to care for middle passengers is hardly a proof that the crew position
of Steward is required for economy passengers, I think.

And in my proposal the cabin space does provide a profit, although a small
one, while the same trader would make no profit at all if he insisted on a
middle passage fare.

We will obviously not come to an agreement on this, but this is hardly a
problem - you play the game your way, I play it my way.

Since the quote it taken from the section on starship operations, and is the most likely reference for the see page XX in the steward skill section... Go ahead... Bury your head in the sand.

I'm commenting based upon the rules as currently available, and upon the economic reality: the ships presented are not built with the current rules, nor are they financially sound ships given the steward rules.

The rules MUST change, since no stable economic situation can result with the given prices and expenses. Short term situations (loss leaders) are not stable.
 
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