Tech Levels - Different Enough?

[far-trader]

...back to the original topic

I think I've always had this problem ... I can instantly conjure up images of what a TL 6 or 5 or 7 society is like, transport, medicine, etc and the implications based on the planetary characteristics.

Past TL 8, it gets fuzzier, but after TL 10 Traveller's TLs seem to blur together. Grav vehicles, high energy guns and jump drive seem to typify TLs from A to F.

Can we match up higher level Traveller TLs with the tech from novels or films? Or can we fill in extra items, breakthroughs, inventions for these higher TLs?

What kind of tech could be expected at TL 16, 17 and 18? Do they match Star Trek, or some other famous sci-fi universe?

I've wanted to reply to this but haven't really been sure how, or even if the answer would be sufficient.

In short it's up to the ref to flesh out the aspects of higher tech, but there have been tables with more examples and guidelines than just guns and jump drive.

In CT LBB3 Worlds and Adventures there is a table breaking down significant items by TL covering Weaponry, Computers, Communications, Transportation, and Energy from TL0 through TL17. Granted the table is not filled and leaves room for TL18 through TL21. I have penciled in notes in my copy (The Traveller Book actually*) of significant items under most categories across the whole TL band.

* which added a "Miscellaneous" column and some additional notes in the other columns

My penciled additions are a mix of personal ideas and borrowed from JTAS and such.

MT went even further in fleshing this out iirc. Including items in the build section up through TL21.

So, for me, yes the TLs are different enough. Never had a problem imagining differences between them, and I always noted each item of gear my character had with the TL it was made at and usually came up with how that made it different from the same item at other TLs.

 

[DFW]

It costs more in modern (high tech) settings to manufacture than in less modern (low tech) settings on Earth (generally, comparatively).

Not at all. It costs less for Toyota to assemble a car with robots than with no automation and only people. My brother in law is a QA exec for the lines. It would cost FAR more to do it all by hand and the quality would be lower.

Why do you think that when Ford introduced the mechanical assembly line the unit cost plunged so that people of lower income could then afford his cars?

Sorry but, no cigar.

 

[simonh]

It costs more in modern (high tech) settings to manufacture than in less modern (low tech) settings on Earth (generally, comparatively).

Not at all. It costs less for Toyota to assemble a car with robots than with no automation and only people. My brother in law is a QA exec for the lines. It would cost FAR more to do it all by hand and the quality would be lower.

Why do you think that when Ford introduced the mechanical assembly line the unit cost plunged so that people of lower income could then afford his cars?

Sorry but, no cigar.

I've got to side with DFW here, a TL 7 planet is TL7 because it makes products using TL7 methods. That's what I understand CT to mean when it describes TLs. Otherwise, what does TL mean?

In the real world right now we have a temporary, unsustainable situation in which high tech manufacturing techniques are deployed in low tech regions to employ low tech labour to manufacture high tech equipment. The kind of easy transfer of technology, knowledge and infrastructure that this implies also implies that soon those low tech guys providing the cheap labour will soon become economically and technically upgraded themselves. Then the labour in southern China won't be as cheap as it once was relative to our currencies.

This has already played out before. At one time cheap mass manufacturing was done in Japan, then they became more sophisticated and moved up the value chain. Taiwan and Hong Kong were next, now they have upgraded themselves and currently it's Guanzho, but they're rapidly becoming upgraded themselves. The low-end jobs will eventually run out of places to move to.

I suppose it comes down to how you imagine Traveller interstellar trade and economics works, but I don't get the impression that low tech worlds in Traveller are where all the high tech mass production is done.

Simon Hibbs

 

[far-trader]

Precisely so Simon.

Japan was lower tech than USA when it was king of cheap manufacturing. Then it achieved the higher tech rating and lost some of it's edge.

China stepped in as the next lower tech cheap manufacturer and that's where it's done now. Shortly they too will (may, depends on other issues, but it seems inevitable) achieve the higher tech rating and lose the same part of the edge.

Other countries will then rise up to replace China as the source of cheap manufacturing.

I see no reason to think it's any different in the Traveller universe. Unless you presume the TLs listed are static over the long haul which makes no sense to me. So yes, those low tech worlds in Traveller may very well have high tech manufacturing for cheap export, exploiting local resources and labour. Many will, not all, but the ones capable of the trade will.

 

[far-trader]

I've got to side with DFW here, a TL 7 planet is TL7 because it makes products using TL7 methods. That's what I understand CT to mean when it describes TLs. Otherwise, what does TL mean?

Sorry, skimmed this too quickly in replying...

A TL7 planet has locally consumed goods at TL7 is my understanding. It is what the players can purchase locally. It's what is for sale in the stores. It's what is manufactured for local consumption. The planet is TL7 but may have imported items above that for those who can afford it, including manufacturing technology but higher TL goods produced would be for export at profit and not have a large market locally because of the expense compared to the wage.

 

[aspqrz]

So, its costs and availability of necessary infrastructure* that limits 'tech level'

*example, cell phones are worthless without cell towers computers are worthless without electricity

Yabbut. They (Somalia) have the biggest absolute number of cell phones in all of Africa (which, because the figures aren't clear, may or may not include North Africa, I am presuming not) as well as the biggest percentage of population using cell phones in Africa.

They don't, mostly, have the latest RIM Crackberries, of course, or even the more normal Mobiles that an average person might buy in, say, the US or UK or Europe, but models specially made *down to the cheapest price* for impoverished Third World s***holes just well, *like* Somalia (probably closer to the sort of disposable Cell Phones that seem common in the US, but with rechargeable batteries ... and I believe that these can go for as low as US$10) ... and they might actually have Apple iPhones available at 50% or more markup for the megawealthy (in Somali terms, of course).

Check out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4020259.stm
http://smartpeopleiknow.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/somalia-love-and-cell-phones-in-a-dangerous-time/
http://www.unfreemedia.com/africa/2010/03/ali-says-that-if-a.html

Now, in Traveller terms, I'd be surprised if Somalia qualified for TL3, and maybe not even for TL2 at this stage, but it has the most extensive Mobile Phone network in Africa, so obviously the 1950's era assumptions underpinning Traveller's OTU simply make no sense in the high tech real world. :wink:

YMMV of course :wink:

How do they power these things in such a rathole? There's been, effectively, no government for the last 20 odd years. But they evidently have a patchwork network of individually owned generator sets running on POL and running a rats nest of wiring across their block or two of the city.

in the end, its about supply and demand, and if a gadget costs more than the consumer can afford to pay, there won't be demand at that price point.
Therefore, tech availability is proportional to wealth or income distribution.

Far more so than most people think, in fact.

The spread of agriculture from its developmental origins in the Tigris-Euphrates valley in the Middle East in prehistoric times is now thought/known to have been *far* faster and its adoption by newbie Hunter-Gatherers *far* more complete than had previously been thought.

The spread of the Railway and the Telegraph was far more explosive and spread to places that were then, and often still are today, s***holes ... yet it was all cutting edge technology.

While Travelleresque assumptions might apply on first discovery of an isolated world ... well, there are really none such (or no believable reason for the existence of any such) in an 1100 year old Imperium hemmed in by all sorts of other Interstellar states ... and, of course, that "pristine" state of technological clewlessness and lack will last all of as long as it takes for some enterprising character (quite possibly a PC!!!) to ship a load of solar generators, cell towers and mobile phones in there to sell to the locals!

Technologically backward does NOT = stupid and incapable of thought!!!

No, the TL spread will be in the 13-14-15 range as noted, with the price and availability variations as noted ...

(Note: You won't be getting a cutting edge TL15 SmartPhone on NewSomalia, support TL3, but a manufactured for cheapness TL13 one, unless a manufactured for cheapness TL15 one is actually cheaper, which may well be the case).

Phil

 

[simonh]

I see no reason to think it's any different in the Traveller universe. Unless you presume the TLs listed are static over the long haul which makes no sense to me. So yes, those low tech worlds in Traveller may very well have high tech manufacturing for cheap export, exploiting local resources and labour. Many will, not all, but the ones capable of the trade will.

The OTU absolutely presumes that TLs are fairly static over the long haul. It's a thousand year old empire, and say the Spinward Marches has been settled and under Imperial control for about 700 years.

The kind of technology and skills transfer that outsourced manufacture requires necessarily will lead to upgrading of the local TL. If the local TL hasn't been upgraded this way over many hundreds of years, that leads me to suspect that this kind of outsourcing isn't going on in those worlds. It may well have gone on in other worlds, but now they've got upgraded and in the current era are high TL worlds.

At least, I don't see how this can be a general trend. there may be the occasional few worlds undergoing this outsource->upgrade process in the OTU during any given era, but it's not going to be very many if the OTU is really as stable as it's history states. Otherwise this process would have run it's course and completed hundreds of years ago.

Simon Hibbs

 

[aspqrz]

I see no reason to think it's any different in the Traveller universe. Unless you presume the TLs listed are static over the long haul which makes no sense to me. So yes, those low tech worlds in Traveller may very well have high tech manufacturing for cheap export, exploiting local resources and labour. Many will, not all, but the ones capable of the trade will.

The OTU absolutely presumes that TLs are fairly static over the long haul. It's a thousand year old empire, and say the Spinward Marches has been settled and under Imperial control for about 700 years.

The kind of technology and skills transfer that outsourced manufacture requires necessarily will lead to upgrading of the local TL. If the local TL hasn't been upgraded this way over many hundreds of years, that leads me to suspect that this kind of outsourcing isn't going on in those worlds. It may well have gone on in other worlds, but now they've got upgraded and in the current era are high TL worlds.

At least, I don't see how this can be a general trend. there may be the occasional few worlds undergoing this outsource->upgrade process in the OTU during any given era, but it's not going to be very many if the OTU is really as stable as it's history states. Otherwise this process would have run it's course and completed hundreds of years ago.

Simon Hibbs

And this is the 1000 lb Gorilla in the room.

There is no way that the OTU, as described, can be the way the OTU is described ... because none of the underlaying assumptions are justifiable in anything remotely resembling an 1100 year timeframe.

Me? I'd have trouble believing them if all they were underpinning was a 110 year timeframe ... but it might, just barely, be possible. Not likely, mind, but barely possible as an extreme outlier.

YMMV ... and, don't get me wrong, I really don't have a problem with GMs and Players who prefer a plain vanilla OTU. Once they buy the game what they do with it is their choice, regardless of what others might think :wink:

Phil

 

[Ishmael]

As I see it, tech level is only an indication of local manufacturing and infrastructure.
Anything higher is imported where even the infrastructure needed to support it is imported; Imported Somalian cell phones need imported cell towers and its all run with imported generators....all of which has to be bought by local resources or else brought in by outside investment.

Another point is that you don't necessarily need to know how a technology works in order to be able to use it. Only the technicians/maintainence people need to know how things work. Therefore, using hi-tech gear doesn't automatically mean that the user has high tech knowledge. Only that he has access to someone who does, even if it is as imported tech support or external call-centers with technicians on call.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that much technology exists to allow people to use a device without knowing how it works under the user interface. Many advances in technology appear to be simply making a known concept and improving its efficiency to make it perform better and to improve its user interface. Automobiles and computers are two things that come to mind.

If the purchase and shipping costs are less that the technician's visit and repair charges, then new gear will be purchased leading to a throw away consumer good. Do Somalians buy replacement cell phones when they break? or do they send out to be repaired? or do they have a repairman come to them on-site.
High tech items are generally harder to repair than lower tech items potentially leading to more disposable goods as corporation seek to keep demand for new product high and repair costs low/non-existent.

On a economic metagaming scale, technology can be thought of as a multiplier for worker output; technology allows for greater production per worker per unit time. The individual worker might not see the benefits in his pocket of such an increase in worker efficiency because the cost savings for the company might not trickle down into worker pay/benefits.

If demand does not support this increased output per worker, then technology could lead to unemployment of a portion of the workforce, which is what Luddites feared ( they were not fearful of the technology itself, only fearful of it replacing them in the workforce ).

 

[simonh]

And this is the 1000 lb Gorilla in the room.

There is no way that the OTU, as described, can be the way the OTU is described ... because none of the underlaying assumptions are justifiable in anything remotely resembling an 1100 year timeframe.

Me? I'd have trouble believing them if all they were underpinning was a 110 year timeframe ... but it might, just barely, be possible. Not likely, mind, but barely possible as an extreme outlier.

Yet that's the way it is. I don't think the problem is quite as extreme as you make out. 110 years isn't long in the grand scheme of things. Yes the western world has gone from steam power to Large Hadron Colliders, but many parts of the world have barely advanced at all, and where they have it's been purely through imports. In fact the Imperial system appears to act as a brake on the development of many worlds.

Each Imperial world has it's own laws and it's own government system which is pretty much guaranteed non-interference. For worlds trapped in dysfunctional political systems, this almost guarantees long-term stagnation. Bear in mind that anywhere on earth can be reached from anywhere else in about a day by air so the pace of technology transfer here should be very rapid. Yet look at Africa and many parts of Asia. Add in isolationist systems like those in Myanmar, North Korea, Sudan, Somalia, Afghanistan before the war. How long before they got upgraded to the same TL as Europe or North America? Hundreds of years seems perfectly reasonable. Japan is a goo case in point. If it hadn't been for Perry they might well still be an isolationist medieval holdout, perhaps with the Shogunate monopolising foreign technology. There are plenty of other countries like that right now.

Maybe 1100 years seems too much, but 110 years is way low. There are many, many countries existant right now which, if you withdrew or heavily restricted external trade, would be back to 1900 technology in a matter of a couple of years or less.

Simon Hibbs

 

[DFW]

As I see it, tech level is only an indication of local manufacturing and infrastructure.
Anything higher is imported where even the infrastructure needed to support it is imported; Imported Somalian cell phones need imported cell towers and its all run with imported generators....all of which has to be bought by local resources or else brought in by outside investment.

Quite correct. This is where the buying power, or lack thereof shows (and doesn't show in Trav). Based on avg income (buying power) cell calls cost 78 times as much to make for a Somali as an American. That country is ~3 TL's lower that the U.S. (MGT rules). The cell phone itself also costs that much more to buy for a Somali. AND, before any gets their knickers in a knot, Somalia has seen a HIGHER GNP since it got rid of its government.

The problem is relative production capability vs. higher TLs. For us in the US, the TRUE cost of a cell phone is 78 times LESS. Traveller rules were written with ZERO thought to real world econ. But, I don't think Marc had any intention of having a logical rule set in this area.

 

[far-trader]

Yeah, it occurred to me some time after I posted that the OTU long history issue might be hulking about. I was more thinking generic Traveller without that baggage. Where the UWP is definitely a snapshot of the current state with no history attached. Any history is left to the ref to invent.

Even so, even given the OTU 1000+ years (and I also find it a stretch and condense it by about x10 on the frontier fwiw), I've never felt the UWP was anything but a snapshot of the currrent state of affairs even in the OTU. Worlds may have been as stated or close for some time, but not for 1000+ years across the Imperium, especially not on the frontier. Not in my TU anyway. It's utter nonsense imo. The Core, yes, stagnant for ages, but also pinnacle TL.

 

[far-trader]

As I see it, tech level is only an indication of local manufacturing and infrastructure.
Anything higher is imported where even the infrastructure needed to support it is imported; Imported Somalian cell phones need imported cell towers and its all run with imported generators....all of which has to be bought by local resources or else brought in by outside investment.

Quite correct. This is where the buying power, or lack thereof shows (and doesn't show in Trav). Based on avg income (buying power) cell calls cost 78 times as much to make for a Somali as an American. That country is ~3 TL's lower that the U.S. (MGT rules). The cell phone itself also costs that much more to buy for a Somali. AND, before any gets their knickers in a knot, Somalia has seen a HIGHER GNP since it got rid of its government.

The problem is relative production capability vs. higher TLs. For us in the US, the TRUE cost of a cell phone is 78 times LESS. Traveller rules were written with ZERO thought to real world econ. But, I don't think Marc had any intention of having a logical rule set in this area.

OK, example time...

In CT LBB7 as a Free-Trader I buy a 10ton crate of Electronics (Cell phones, towers, the whole "Can you hear me now?" in-a-box setup) on Ameriworld (TL15 Class A Starport - ignore the rest for simplicity) at an adjusted cost of KCr45.

I then jump to Somaliworld (TL10 Class B Starport - ignore the rest for simplicity) and sell my cells to a group who wants high tech and is willing to pay for it, at an adjusted price of KCr75 (also ignoring the actual value roll and brokerage benefits) for a profit of KC30.

Is this not comparable to the RealWorld you describe above? High Tech goods costing more in Low Tech settings?

So how can you say the Traveller rules don't reflect the RealWorld economics?

 

[aspqrz]

And this is the 1000 lb Gorilla in the room.

There is no way that the OTU, as described, can be the way the OTU is described ... because none of the underlaying assumptions are justifiable in anything remotely resembling an 1100 year timeframe.

Me? I'd have trouble believing them if all they were underpinning was a 110 year timeframe ... but it might, just barely, be possible. Not likely, mind, but barely possible as an extreme outlier.

Yet that's the way it is. I don't think the problem is quite as extreme as you make out. 110 years isn't long in the grand scheme of things. Yes the western world has gone from steam power to Large Hadron Colliders, but many parts of the world have barely advanced at all, and where they have it's been purely through imports. In fact the Imperial system appears to act as a brake on the development of many worlds.

Each Imperial world has it's own laws and it's own government system which is pretty much guaranteed non-interference. For worlds trapped in dysfunctional political systems, this almost guarantees long-term stagnation. Bear in mind that anywhere on earth can be reached from anywhere else in about a day by air so the pace of technology transfer here should be very rapid. Yet look at Africa and many parts of Asia. Add in isolationist systems like those in Myanmar, North Korea, Sudan, Somalia, Afghanistan before the war. How long before they got upgraded to the same TL as Europe or North America? Hundreds of years seems perfectly reasonable. Japan is a goo case in point. If it hadn't been for Perry they might well still be an isolationist medieval holdout, perhaps with the Shogunate monopolising foreign technology. There are plenty of other countries like that right now.

Maybe 1100 years seems too much, but 110 years is way low. There are many, many countries existant right now which, if you withdrew or heavily restricted external trade, would be back to 1900 technology in a matter of a couple of years or less.

Simon Hibbs

And all that is the problem

The whole stated purpose for the existence of the Third Imperium is the promotion and protection of Trade ... indeed, the Imperial family's considerable fortune is, quite explicitly, linked to the ownership of shares in major interstellar *trading* corporations ... and, yet, for the OTU tech situation to be the way that it is implied to be this has to be an out and out lie ... not only a lie, but, in fact, almost the direct opposite of what the actual situation would have to be to create and support such a situation.

You simply cannot have an 1100 year old (or even a 110 year old) polity whose major aim is the promotion and protection of large scale trade where, based on all the evidence, large scale trade is impossible or severely repressed over significant portions of said background.

Yet, according to some interpretations of the OTU background - indeed, according to some of the explicit background material - we are expected to believe this.

It's like the Queen in Alice in Wonderland suggesting Alice should believe six impossible things before breakfast.

The facts are that in the real world there are no places where high tech items cannot be secured relatively easily, relatively quickly, and relatively cheaply ...

Does that mean instantly in really out of the way places? Nope.

Does it mean that anywhere where there is a reasonable sized Starport most things should be available most of the time? Yes.

And that brings up another point, all those relatively high population planets that have no formal starports in that selfsame 1100 year old body whose major purpose is the promotion and protection of interstellar trade, whose rulers gain a significant chunk of their fortune from said interstellar trade, where trade wars are known to take place between the major corporations etc. etc.

Only in Alice in Wonderland would anyone believe that huge load of old codswallop.

YMMV.

Like I said, if people capable of believing six impossible things before breakfast want to believe all that, fine, I have no problem with it :wink:

But anyone who tries to defend it on any rational basis - that I have a minor quirky problem with ... :wink:

Note: If Perry hadn't forced the opening of Japan to trade, someone would have, and very soon thereafter ... either that or someone in the region who had opened themselves to trade would have used their acquisition of advanced technology to conquer or vassalise Japan. Just like what happened to China.

No ifs, no buts, no maybes.

The world - indeed, the Universe - is a harsh and unforgiving place for societies that make the wrong choices in a situation where there are many different societies ... just as Water Empires can't survive in the face of other societies who have made different choices, and for exactly the same sort of reasons.

Wishing that were not so doesn't change the fact that it is.

Phil

 

[DFW]

Is this not comparable to the RealWorld you describe above? High Tech goods costing more in Low Tech settings?

Nope, because you keep ignoring the formula used to figure the original cost. (the higher the TL, the higher the cost of manufacturing)

For the life of me I don't know why you can't confront that...

 

[rust]

There is no way that the OTU, as described, can be the way the OTU is described ... because none of the underlaying assumptions are justifiable in anything remotely resembling an 1100 year timeframe.

This is perhaps my main problem with the Third Imperium setting. The
Imperium is more than 1,000 years old, but this is just a more or less
empty time span, it is not filled with any plausible major historical deve-
lopments - time went by, but with the Imperium in cold sleep in a giant
low berth.

Technology developed (very slowly), some wars were fought, but the so-
ciety remained basically unchanged for more than a millenium, and an
Imperial citizen who had been away for a thousand years could return to
the Imperium and immediately feel at home again, he would only have to
get accustomed to some few new gadgets and a different Emperor's na-
me.

 

[aspqrz]

Is this not comparable to the RealWorld you describe above? High Tech goods costing more in Low Tech settings?

Nope, because you keep ignoring the formula used to figure the original cost. (the higher the TL, the higher the cost of manufacturing)

For the life of me I don't know why you can't confront that...

And I cannot understand why anyone would believe something so self-evidently not true.

In the real world the cost of manufacturing things comes down - dramatically.

One of the biggest differences between modern and pre-modern societies is the absolutely massive number of "things" that we have compared to their complete poverty of things, in relative and absolute terms.

As I suggested, it is reasonably obvious to anyone who cursorily looks at the advances of technology through history that the major progress points are those where technology increases per capita productivity, and makes things cheaper. Often cheaper both relatively and absolutely.

Sure, the absolute cutting edge stuff will be expensive when first introduced, but, very very quickly, as the production wrinkles are sorted out and all the new factories tasked with producing it come on line fully, the price goes down and/or the features go up.

Blu-Ray players, for example, in recent memory.

iPad clones, likewise, are undergoing this process as we speak.

YMMV :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Phil

 

[DFW]

In the real world the cost of manufacturing things comes down - dramatically.
...
As I suggested, it is reasonably obvious to anyone who cursorily looks at the advances of technology through history that the major progress points are those where technology increases per capita productivity, and makes things cheaper. Often cheaper both relatively and absolutely.

Right and, CT Merchant Price figures the exact opposite way with TL's. VERY strange.

 

[far-trader]

You do know where all your cheap products are manufactured right. Try to build your Blu-Rays, I-Pads, even the plastic toys and furniture in Wal-Mart in the good ol USA and tell me you'll be competitive.

You're both missing the whole picture. Or are so willfully invested in your CT hate that you can't admit any possibility you might be wrong.

CT LBB7 does increase the base cost of goods by TL, but that is offset by other factors, and the actual cost comparatively IS lower.

Whatever. DFW's original point was Traveller didn't address this. I pointed out he was wrong. Then he claims well yeah but they got it wrong, High Tech goods should cost more in Low Tech settings. I point out that Traveller does this in fact. So then he claims...

....it's obvious to me it's pointless continuing. You know, if you feel it is so wrong and broken, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Write an article to fix it and submit it to S&P or somewhere. Show us how you'd do it.

 

[rust]

Right and, CT Merchant Price figures the exact opposite way with TL's. VERY strange.

One of the nice features of the various GURPS settings is that all techno-
logy gets cheaper at higher technology levels after its invention.