Tech Levels - Different Enough?

[Mithras]

I think I've always had this problem ... I can instantly conjure up images of what a TL 6 or 5 or 7 society is like, transport, medicine, etc and the implications based on the planetary characteristics.

Past TL 8, it gets fuzzier, but after TL 10 Traveller's TLs seem to blur together. Grav vehicles, high energy guns and jump drive seem to typify TLs from A to F.

Can we match up higher level Traveller TLs with the tech from novels or films? Or can we fill in extra items, breakthroughs, inventions for these higher TLs?

What kind of tech could be expected at TL 16, 17 and 18? Do they match Star Trek, or some other famous sci-fi universe?

 

[Mithras]

Are there any TL plateaus that might give me a better handle on the way society might change depending on the TL being utilised?

 

[DFW]

One could easily merge TLs 13-15 and not have any problems.

 

[Mithras]

Yeah, it seems as if TL 12-15 are a single Traveller TL, subdivided.

 

[aspqrz]

Yeah, it seems as if TL 12-15 are a single Traveller TL, subdivided.

Indeed. Exactly so.

It might be more productive to regard these higher levels (and, indeed, all Tech Levels) as more significant, possibly close to order of magnitude, leaps in per capita productivity ... so the Grav Raft of TL/12 may not cost less, in raw terms, but actually costs less of a TL/13 average income to buy, for example.

Yes, I know that ... with the possible exception of GURPS's merchant rules which had rules for pricing a Credit at different TLs ... Traveller has never done that explicitly, but, insofar as the earlier TLs mean anything, they largely do represent order of magnitude leaps in some aspect (if not several) subordinate technologies.

YMMV of course.

Phil

 

[Mithras]

That would make sense. But I'm in a world creation mode, and it was through government, law level trade code and Tech Level that I hoped to paint a unique, interesting and flavourful description of society. I just want more TL differentiation I suppose.

I might get a blank TL sheet and start adding in things not explicitly mentioned, to round it out ....

 

[Golan2072]

This is one of the reasons why I like lower-tech settings, where the average tech is TL 7-10, TL11-12 is "high-tech" and TL13-16 is relic-tech (whether alien or human in origin). This way I don't have to mess with the relatively minor differences between TLs 13-15 and I also keep the jump rates low and comfortable for a subsector-sized setting.

This way, TL8 is near-future/low-cyberpunk, with most technology looking like contemporary tech with the addition of fusion for larger vehicles and starships; TL9 is high-cyberpunk with some interstellar tech and clunky starships that look like machines or factories (think Nostromo); TL10 is "futuristic" near-future with more gravitic vehicles (or, more likely, grav-assisted vehicles), cool ACR-type guns and so on (think Bladerunner); TL11 is high-tech, with "fast" Jump-2 ships, Combat Armour, robots and drones and so on; and TL12 is very high-tech, with Gauss weapons, "ultra-fast" Jump-3 ships, very common gravitics, even personal grav-belts for the rich! TL13-16 is relic-tech, and thus handled on a case-by-case basis and usually varies from one site to another as much as the game requires.

 

[DFW]

It might be more productive to regard these higher levels (and, indeed, all Tech Levels) as more significant, possibly close to order of magnitude, leaps in per capita productivity ... so the Grav Raft of TL/12 may not cost less, in raw terms, but actually costs less of a TL/13 average income to buy, for example.

I've done that in my games for years. EI: A Model A Jump drive costs McrX on a TL 10 world but, Mcr.75X on a TL 11 world due to relative buying power because of productivity difference.

 

[aspqrz]

It might be more productive to regard these higher levels (and, indeed, all Tech Levels) as more significant, possibly close to order of magnitude, leaps in per capita productivity ... so the Grav Raft of TL/12 may not cost less, in raw terms, but actually costs less of a TL/13 average income to buy, for example.

I've done that in my games for years. EI: A Model A Jump drive costs McrX on a TL 10 world but, Mcr.75X on a TL 11 world due to relative buying power because of productivity difference.

Makes a lot of sense, but it's never been the way the "Traveller Universe" works ... though I must say that even Space Opera wasn't anywhere near perfect on this issue either, and I had a little hand in that :wink:

Phil

 

[rust]

Are there any TL plateaus that might give me a better handle on the way society might change depending on the TL being utilised?

For some settings I used material like that of the Delphi Project, where
experts from various fields of science attempt to predict which innnova-
tions and inventions are likely to be achieved at which time in the future.
This only works for about the next hundred years or so, but it covers a
lot more technologies than any science fiction material and gives a good
impression what the nearer future really might be like - and with a little
imagination it is not too difficult to build upon the material and expand
the timeline a couple more decades.

I did not find a link to the actual Delphi Project of universities, especially
in Germany and Japan, only to the general Delphi method:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi_method

 

[DFW]

Makes a lot of sense, but it's never been the way the "Traveller Universe" works ...Phil

Basic econ. Look at the real world. Marc did this on purpose and created a broken trading system for his own GMing reasons. Unfortunately, gamers, in the main, have been stuck with his errors (that are 180 from actual econ). Someone told me that GURPS Trav dealt with this subject well. I don't know though.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Are there any TL plateaus that might give me a better handle on the way society might change depending on the TL being utilised?

I have used TL 12 as a plateau before. At TL 12 you get micro gravity control (grav belts). With that TL change, you get advanced Fusion Power that is more efficient, J3 REALLY changes a game since now players can get across a sector in a few months; it really changes the scale of the game (and the Empires!).

Obviously TL15 is another plateau with TL16 bringing Black Globe Generators (I figure the TL15 versions are actually prototypes) and hints of Anti-Matter power (probably should have experimental Antimatter torpedoes at TL15).

Things get fuzzy after that as most Traveller products don't agree on what happens where above TL16.

I like to play at the cusp of TL12 with experimental J3 ships and advanced Meson weapons changing the rules of space combat.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Using 3I setting at the moment, so taking at face value the various tech and econ assumptions. To be fair, I they are more about giving a good game than a model of technological development.

Certainly in a "own universe" campaign background I am gradually developing, will, effectively, cap TL at 12 (though with some differnces in tech levels for some goods), the further we move from known technologies, the wilder the handwavium.

Egil

 

[Jame Rowe]

Yeah, it seems as if TL 12-15 are a single Traveller TL, subdivided.

I would add a few bits to make TL 14/15 (as one TL) different from TL 12/13 (also 1 TL), but yes.

Also, I would separate Iron Age from Bronze age; Iron would be TL 2 and Bronze TL 1. Medieval would be 3 and Renaissance 4, with the American Civil War and WW1 being TL 5.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I tend to use the following variations to TL:

TL0 - Stone Age
TL1 - Bronze Age
TL2 - Iron Age
TL3 - Gunpowder Age (Black powder)
TL4 - Steam Age (Rifles and Steam Engines)
TL5 - Mechanical Age (WW1 to WW2)
TL6 - Nuclear Age (Atomic bombs and rockets)
TL7 - Electronic Age (Current TL)
TL8 - Planetary Age (sublight reaction drives, Fusion Power)

Calling the Renaissance a separate age doesn't seem right to me, since it was more of a rediscovery of a lot of info that had been out there before (or discovered by another society), so it was more of a recovery from the Black Death and the Dark Ages following the fall of the Roman Empire. Early Renaissance would be TL3 and by the end of the Renaissance they were moving firmly into TL4.

I have also considered using a much reduced TL scale that only goes to 10 (OK maybe it goes to 11 ....)
Treating everything from the end of WW2 to today as one TL, not 2 or 3. Jump 1-6 are compressed into one TL and then Jump-36 (controlled misjumps) are another TL.

So:

TL6: Current Age (Electronic Age)
TL7: Interstellar Age (J1-J6, Fusion Power, Gravitic Control)
TL8: Galactic Age (J36, Antimatter, Microgravity control)
TL9: Intergalactic Age (J1000, Immortality, Transhumanism)
TL10: Transcendence to Energy Beings or Clarke's Law...

Play the game at TL7 for traditional Traveller or TL8 for a Star Wars or Star Trek type game. TL9 is for wondertech, not for actually trying to play in.

Just my musings.

 

[aspqrz]

Makes a lot of sense, but it's never been the way the "Traveller Universe" works ...Phil

Basic econ. Look at the real world. Marc did this on purpose and created a broken trading system for his own GMing reasons. Unfortunately, gamers, in the main, have been stuck with his errors (that are 180 from actual econ). Someone told me that GURPS Trav dealt with this subject well. I don't know though.

Allegedly. I have the book in question, and its written by someone with economics quals of some sort, from memory, but it seems far too complicated for actual use.

Others MMV of course :wink:

I can't really understand why Marc a) did what he did and b) has stuck with it all these years even tho its obviously broken ... I mean, we didn't set out to create broken rules for Space Opera and, if there had ever been multiple editions, we would have at least tried to fix some of the more obvious problems.

Still, we have to work with what we have ... or ignore the OTU elements that don't work, of course :wink:

Phil

 

[DFW]

Allegedly. I have the book in question, and its written by someone with economics quals of some sort, from memory, but it seems far too complicated for actual use.

At first it could seem that way. But, it is based on basic principles that are covered in Econ college classes. The basics in the GURPS books are easy once you go through them a couple of times. Marc wrote the rules the way he did to make it difficult for players to be merchants rather than adventurers. A ham fisted approach to be sure.

 

[Vile]

GURPS works smoothly enough once the merchant character and the referee get the hang of it. But the process of getting there are soporific for the rest of the group. You can turn up late for sessions to let them get the stuff out of the way so you can get down to the business of roleplaying.

Honestly, I think trade should be either roleplayed with maybe 1 or 2 skill rolls, or kept in the background entirely and resolved with one 2d6 roll. Tabletop time is too precious.

 

[simonh]

I did not find a link to the actual Delphi Project of universities, especially
in Germany and Japan, only to the general Delphi method:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi_method

This is interesting: TechCast.

Simon Hibbs

 

[hdan]

If I were recasting the TL "scene", I would be tempted to separate tech into broad areas with early, middle and late periods.

* Early Period - principles just beginning to be applied (they were discovered at the end of the last period, but the TL wasn't sufficient to apply the knowledge yet.)
* Middle Period - principles are well understood, though many clever applications remain to be invented (for example, compare 1980's or even 90's computers to modern computers - same essential concepts, but very different devices.)
* Late Period - the principles have been exploited as completely as possible without further understanding of the universe. Research into the next Early period begins.

Age of Shaping (1-3) - capable of modifying the world through physical means
* Domesticating Animals
* Agriculture
* Making tools from stone
* Building simple "mound" and post-lintel structures (towards the end of the period)

Age of Chemistry (4-6) - mastery of chemical reactions and the beginnings of science and mathematics
* Earth's Bronze Age up until the end of the "Age of Muscle Power"
* Metallurgy
* Sophisticated textiles and food preservation/preparation
* Medicine
* Science/Mathematics, Writing, Money, Literature, Architecture
* Late in the period, Industrialization is possible (though some species aren't driven to industrialize)

Age of the Atom (7-9) - mastery sub-molecular forces and quantum physics
* Pretty much our TL for the last 60 years or so. I'd put us in the Late part of the period.
* Electricity (early electricity, electric devices, electronic devices and semiconductors)
* Radio waves, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics
* Computers, Nanotechnology (take that, Neal Stephenson - I'm not even giving the "Diamond Age" its own TL! )

Age of the G.U.T. (10-12) (needs a better name) - mastery of the fundamental forces of nature
* Equivalent to Traveller TL-9 to TL-15
* Anti-gravity (early period)
* Jump Drives (J1 is early, J2-4 is middle, J5-6 is late, somewhat arbitrarily)
* Nuclear Dampeners, Meson guns, etc.

Age of Transcendance (13-15) - mastery over "all creation"
* Grandfather and his Children's "Fate"
* Creating universes, changing the "laws of nature"
* Artificial Consciousness, Galactic Intelligences, etc.
* Other stuff my puny "Age of the Atom" brain can't imagine