actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Cool, let's not bother each other over this triviality.
Taxes, the Imperium, and You!
- Thread starter Terry Mixon
- Start date
Cool, let's not bother each other over this triviality.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Agreed.
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
Include it in the Instructions to Traffic squawked by the starports in the adjacent hexes. "Civilian traffic to Depot shall jump directly to the gas giant at insert orbital elements here and comply exactly with all instructions from insystem authority."
Very much so. Astro charts would have the pre-approved arrival and departure zones for the gas giant. Arriving in the system (or getting their under normal M-drive) would be verboten and subject to penalties - up to and including being fired upon.
For the most part I do not expect Imperial ships to open fire without warning on a ship outside of normal areas. Much, of course, depends on where it is, the type of ship, and what kind of alert level they are at. Under normal circumstances I'd expect a naval patrol vessel to escort the ship somewhere for further investigation and/or board it. I don't personally ascribe to the idea that the Imperium is an tyrant-esque edifice that goes around imprisoning and blowing ships up merely because it can. If this were Renegade Legion and they were TOG, well, sure, then that would be more believable.
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
Made me look, and it turns out at least half of the Depots are the only way for a jump 1 ship to get from one arm of a main - sometimes a sizable main - to the other. So (my) logic demands there must be some approved arrangement for civilian traffic to refuel in them. (I dislike fuel bladders, distrust drop tanks, and completely disallow external fuel pods.)
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Specific spacestation(s), positioned that allow no surveillance of naval activities, either coming or going.
At a minimum, about the same as Area Fifty One.
At a minimum, about the same as Area Fifty One.
MarcusIII
Emperor Mongoose
One a J1 main they'd just use fuel bladder holding enough for a J1. Faster than jumping into the system and refueling plus dirt cheap to buy a J1 sized bladder.
Mind you, a 2 1/2 hour drive from Las Vegas isn't exactly remote.
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
I used to drive almost that far to get away from light pollution for an evening.
(Not sure that's enough drive to get away from Vegas' light dome. Or even just the Luxor all by itself.)
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
I'd expect an outer gas giant or fueling station if there isn't one, follow all instructions immediately and completely, under no circumstances engage radar or other active sensors. Maybe even be given a code to squawk at the starport you're departing, code changes on a regular basis. (I really don't want computers IMTU to be good enough to support public key cryptography, and I know just how impossible that is thank you no need to inform me.)
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Obviously, starships can jump anywhere into the system.
You'd have to preposition security spacecraft to intercept any that do.
You'd have to preposition security spacecraft to intercept any that do.
Quite a few of those Depot UWPs don't have Gas Giants. A higher frequency than usual (only three systems out of 19 have gas giants!), so it looks like that may be a desirable feature to the Navy.
One might speculate (or rule) that the three Depots which do have GGs might have inner system ones that can't be easily jumped to.
Naval patrols would be expected in any system with a Navy Base; triply so in a Depot.
You'd think that Depot systems would have any points of interest guarded.
Also... jumping in to a location does require astronomical data. That should be fairly straightforward for the Imperium to control... all commercial craft need to know is what they require to jump to where they're allowed, otherwise they're jumping blind with the star as their target. A stellar system may have innumerable chunks of ice or even minor gas giants, but unless you know where they are (or if they even exist) they're not much use. The required data about the star might not even be publicly available, at least to the precision that Jump requires.
A ship able to satisfy the authorities as to their bona fides may be provided with jump tapes. Otherwise, crack open the World Builder's Handbook. Survey checklist is on p.254. Start analyzing that system from afar...
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Very true - you'd need to do it from afar. There's really no way you could stop basic system data from existing - it's a star system and you can get general mapping data from light years away. You may not have detailed data, but you'd be able to acquire more than enough basic data to plot a jump to the system withing a few hundred diameters of any sizable planetary body. And that would be with easily obtainable civilian equipment. Actual survey equipment could do a far better job.
To be even safer you could plot a jump that puts your arrival point above/below the plane of the eliptic where you aren't going to encounter any pesky planets or other sizable objects. And, even if you do, most likely you'll simply be yanked out of jump space early if it wasn't already your destination.
While it's true that you can't prevent covert interstellar observations, it's also something that has to be actively sought.
Civilian and commercial ships do not do their own survery work - they rely on what they are given. If the Imperium wants a system locked down on a long term basis, control of that data seems to me to be the simplest way to do so.
They probably can't avoid knowledge of the stellar data - too simple to observe, and too easy to just point the ship at the star and let 100D do its work - but for any jump more precise than "within 100D of the star" you need very good numbers. Even knowing the orbital distances and the characteristics of the planets won't tell you which side of the system one is, or will be when you arrive. Old data will become inaccurate over time as gravitational peturbations and chaos do their work.
Data can be redacted, suppressed or deleted. For a really high security system, I'd expect the powers that be would be able to retroactively purge things, but to be honest that's overkill for a system that's been one for centuries. You can be sure that the published Second Survey data does NOT include anything in it that the IISS does not want included, and I expect the Navy and other relevant agencies would have had a say in that process.
In any case, the Depots do appear to allow traffic, so it would be more a case of only publishing the system data allowing jumps to where the Navy allow you to. IMTU I'd probably make it that the only civilian option would be official jump tapes purchased from the Navy... although maybe a detached Scout with connections and clearance might have other options...
Civilian and commercial ships do not do their own survery work - they rely on what they are given. If the Imperium wants a system locked down on a long term basis, control of that data seems to me to be the simplest way to do so.
They probably can't avoid knowledge of the stellar data - too simple to observe, and too easy to just point the ship at the star and let 100D do its work - but for any jump more precise than "within 100D of the star" you need very good numbers. Even knowing the orbital distances and the characteristics of the planets won't tell you which side of the system one is, or will be when you arrive. Old data will become inaccurate over time as gravitational peturbations and chaos do their work.
Data can be redacted, suppressed or deleted. For a really high security system, I'd expect the powers that be would be able to retroactively purge things, but to be honest that's overkill for a system that's been one for centuries. You can be sure that the published Second Survey data does NOT include anything in it that the IISS does not want included, and I expect the Navy and other relevant agencies would have had a say in that process.
In any case, the Depots do appear to allow traffic, so it would be more a case of only publishing the system data allowing jumps to where the Navy allow you to. IMTU I'd probably make it that the only civilian option would be official jump tapes purchased from the Navy... although maybe a detached Scout with connections and clearance might have other options...
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You send your flight plan ahead, and wait for approval.
That would be at least a two week waiting time.
That would be at least a two week waiting time.
MarcusIII
Emperor Mongoose
Right. Another reason they would just use fuel bladders to bypass
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I guess they would have to hold it in, rather than looking for a gas station.
I agree that civilian ships / commercial liners don't do their own survey work. However even basic sensors, given enough time, would be able to track stars, gas giants and probably any planetary bodies in the inner portion of the system. Finding dwarf planets like Pluto would be harder for sure.
With so many ex-scout ships flying around paying one of them to provide scan data from afar is a reasonable alternative. Otherwise if it's something you really want, you'd go out and spend few hundred thousand credits and get the optimal visual readings. Setting up a satellite to monitor it for 6-12months would give you all the needed basic info.
Getting to 100d in a system that you aren't supposed to be in is probably not recommended. Arriving 500D or more out means you'd be very hard to intercept for ships around 100D and you'd get your needed close-in scan data. Then just jump out and plan your second or third intrusion. It'd be a constant game between invader and defender - all depending upon what your needs are.
One thing that also skews this is the new gravimetric sensors that the Deep Survey expansion added. These are supposed to be able to track objects such as ships or planetary bodies from lightyears away. So, using these you be able to track ALL the planets and planetoids remotely. Since its light-speed limited, it would take a little bit of time, but you'd have your map that no Imperial purge could get rid of.
