Tanker Spit and the Centre point Firing. Is it useless?

[The Legend]

Ok guys here's a thing.

All firing in Evo is taken from the Centre of a model.

A Tankers Spit has a range of 12"

Using the centre of the model gives the tankers spit an effective range of about 7". Is this right or is it assumed that with larger Creatures/vehicles can you take the range measurement from the weapon that is firing?

This may seem like a nigling point but it really craps on the effective range a tanker has, unless I suppose you take into account the fact you now target a point in the ground which increases your range a further 6".

Any thoughts?

 

[cordas]

Actually I would assume that it fires at a fire point the same as any other weapon, so its more powerfull than it used to be in that regard as its not longer restricted to the template.

Also it has to be measured from the CoM, measuring from anywhere else for shooting is just wrong. All measurements regarding a model should be taken from the same place.

 

[The Legend]

Ok....

Thats not what I'm trying to get across. When we play BF Evo we use the weapon mount as the place to start measuring as that seems to be the most sensible option. With Infantry that only has a base radius of at the most an Inch it also makes next to no difference.

The Tanker Spit though If measured from the centre then gets a disadvantage as the Tanker model is four inches from centre to front so you lose four inches from your range. Put this together with the deployment having to keep the whole model in the deployment zone and you imediately give the Tanker a huge disadvantage.

This will also be the case for all larger models in SST and also for BF Evo but it just seems that the Tanker is at a really big disadvantage because of having such a short range compared to everyone else.

 

[cordas]

Would you do the same with the plasma bug, using its tail pipe to measure its range from?

 

[cordas]

Reading Fire Zones and Line of Sight, from the rules sheet it says you need LOS to to the intended targets to shoot, and then goes on that LOS is measured from center of model to the center of the FZ. To be able to hit the opponents models they only need to have part of model in the FZ.

Reading this it does seem that the tanker takes a bit of a hit, but it is what the rules say....

 

[The Legend]

Reading Fire Zones and Line of Sight, from the rules sheet it says you need LOS to to the intended targets to shoot, and then goes on that LOS is measured from center of model to the center of the FZ. To be able to hit the opponents models they only need to have part of model in the FZ.

Reading this it does seem that the tanker takes a bit of a hit, but it is what the rules say....

I'm not argueing about what the rules say I'm stating that I disagree. Plus as you well know when We've been playing BF Evo we use the Weapon as the item we measure from, except in the case of Infantry. If we continue in this manner then there may be a discontinuity between mongooses use of the Tanker in the official ruling and what we do. I'd like to hear where on the model mongoose uses as the Centre point and if its the horn at the back of the head or the last point of the Thorax?

 

[cordas]

I have no probs moving the "center point" of the tanker to its horns, as long as its consistant. Just because we have gotten something wrong in BF doesn't mean we should do the same in SST, we should correct our mistakes in future games of BF.

 

[Iain McGhee]

No reason you can't take the centre point of a tanker to be the "horn" on it's head or wherever (I use the middle of the section where the front legs are as I think this fits better for measuring point-blank range for melee) as long as you always take the same centre point for moving etc. as well. Same goes for any model, as long as your opponent is made aware of this before the game starts.

 

[The Legend]

No reason you can't take the centre point of a tanker to be the "horn" on it's head or wherever (I use the middle of the section where the front legs are as I think this fits better for measuring point-blank range for melee) as long as you always take the same centre point for moving etc. as well. Same goes for any model, as long as your opponent is made aware of this before the game starts.

Oh yeah I agree but where does that start and end for Deployment. If you use the horn on the head you give a bonus by deploying the model so it's in the deployment zone as you get a certain amount of bleed for it's point blank value. (yes I know this is a mute point at the moment).

If you use the centre of the tanker as the join between the thorax and the main body then you lose some range. Or is that the point?

 

[Iain McGhee]

I picked that as a compromise between the model's front and it's true centre point. Doesn't make any difference to me for deployments as I almost always start them underground (keeps them safe from nukes until they get within range). Don't get what you mean about getting a bonus as the centre point always counts as where the model actually is regardless of where you take it, at least under V1.0 rules.

 

[cordas]

Oh yeah I agree but where does that start and end for Deployment. If you use the horn on the head you give a bonus by deploying the model so it's in the deployment zone as you get a certain amount of bleed for it's point blank value. (yes I know this is a mute point at the moment).

It makes no difference for deployment, the center point has to be within your deployment zone, as for the rest of the model it doesn't matter, as all measuring is done from that point.

 

[The Old Soldier]

This discussion happened with the Old SST game also. House Rules became the norm with large models such as the Tanker Bug. Most of us Measure from the Centre of the Head if it is a Forward Firing weapon, such as a Tanker Bug. We also used the Centre of the tail section of the Plasma Bug for Rear Firing.

We only did this for those large models.

 

[MarkNorfolk]

Wasn't the the Tanker Bug altered for the army book (not got books to hand), the range was shortened but the firing point became the head?

Cheers
Mark

 

[Rob_A]

No, I can't find that rule anywhere.

Play it as is for now, there will be a new Tanker model that may make this range a bit better. We also have to remember this is purely playtest. If you and your friends/opponent agree to allow measurement from the centre of the head, fine. I have done this and found it quite useful.

 

[Poko]

funnily,no one seemd to think that the games developers(obviously blundering fools if we measure it by the number of "they got it wrong" threads)were, as a matter of fact, aware of the fact that the weapon range is limited due to the Centerpoint Measurement,and that it was delibarate.

 

[BuShips]

I've never seen anything pointing to measure from the weapon in BFE. If you want to have something to chew on regarding justification of using the center point of say a tank, consider the center point is where the projectile starts its "journey" out of the gun tube from the perspective of the gun loader . I measure shooting consistently from the model's center-point, and that would be consistent with the rules. Matt has also said that if all players at a table are more happy doing things different, go for it. It's not like Mongoose will hand out fines for not following the rules :wink:. For my thinking I have no problem using the center-point.

 

[JoseDominguez]

You could look at it this way...... by measuring from the tankers head, you are actually increasing the range of a devastating weapon by 4".
In the film, he actually rears up on his back legs to fire on both occasions (kind of like he'd taken a deep breath). So the centre point is closer to the mark.
Anyway, if you mess with centrepoints, then you cause problems with area effect weapons, close combat and all sorts of things.
If mongoose hadn't intended for the tanker to have a limited range, then surely they'd just have kept the same centrpoint and given it a 16" range?

It's got to be deliberate, remember firing is an abstraction and models are just suggesting the position of a real combatant. They aren't absolute representations. This is what keeps SST flowing and fluid, the centrepoint game mechanic is essential to this, it means exact placement and fiddling with models to ensure they keep out/maintain line of sight is pointless.
Look at it another way, the tanker has a forward arc and can fire to the side...... in reality it would turn it's upper body and the head would be closer than the centrepoint. The rules as they stand avoid complicating things with issues like this. It averages out to 12" from the centre.

 

[BuShips]

Well, the original range of the Tanker was 18", and that's what is printed in the rulebook. They modified it later down to 12" in the Arachnid Army Book. In both cases, the range was supposed to be measured from the model center-point. For my Tanker kit-bash that used the left-over parts from the King Tanker kit that has the forward part of the Tanker emerging from a hole, I 'house rule it' to the hole center point. That is because it is meant for uses where the Tanker stays in that position defensively (while using that piece) and is used as a bunker or sorts (and getting the +2 cover bonus). Regardless of what the players decide, the official rule is to use the center-point. Even with the changes made with Battlefield Evolution, while the view of the entire target model is considered for Line of Sight, the author still kept the measure point origin on the shooting model at the center of the model.

 

[Rob_A]

Thats an incredibly smart idea for a conversion, well done!
As I say, wait for the BF:Evo tanker. Could be very different...

 

[cordas]

Sweet looking conversion there!!!!



I would say just stick with the center point of the model, when people are talking about tanks firing from the center point being fine in BF:Evo because thats where the firing mechanism is, well where does the fire stream from a tanker originate?

Does it brew all that fire in its head (repeatedly), or does it have some large sack in its belly / chest which it squeezes to hurl the flaming stuff at its target.... Fluffwise it seems far more likely that it comes from deep inside the tanker......