Suggestion for boresight/inisink problem solution

An important thing to remember in all of this is that rules do get changed. Mongoose is planning to put out a book every year for ACTA. If you think that those books can't or won't contain any changes to the rules, you should go back and look at the history of this game.

Mongoose is willing to change rules for the benefit of their games. A more recent example is the new book for Victory at Sea. The rules for aircraft are completely new.

What I'm saying is, these discussions are not just academic. If a rule can be shown to be flawed or a better implementation demonstrated, Mongoose has shown that they are willing to be flexible (well... somewhat flexible anyway...).

ShopKeepJon
 
ShopKeepJon said:
An important thing to remember in all of this is that rules do get changed. Mongoose is planning to put out a book every year for ACTA. If you think that those books can't or won't contain any changes to the rules, you should go back and look at the history of this game.

Mongoose is willing to change rules for the benefit of their games. A more recent example is the new book for Victory at Sea. The rules for aircraft are completely new.

What I'm saying is, these discussions are not just academic. If a rule can be shown to be flawed or a better implementation demonstrated, Mongoose has shown that they are willing to be flexible (well... somewhat flexible anyway...).

ShopKeepJon

Well, let's have at it some more then!
 
David said:
One tries to make each opposing force unique and interesting on its own. It's more difficult to balance than you would think. Those of us who have toyed with game design tend to be less critical of those who design and sell. ;)
True enough, but having toyed with game design myself, I am more critical of those who design and sell when they are not willing to listen to the people who play their game. Feedback from other people is absolutely vital if you want to make the best game possible.

Mongoose has shown that they are willing to listen (eventually). Keeping these topics in front of the people who have the power to change things is the best way to help the game improve. (Just as teaching the game to new people is the best way to help the game grow.)

Like you, I don't believe that it is possible to make perfectly balanced fleets. I do, however, believe that we should try to get as close to perfect balance as is possible without destroying the unique character of each fleet.

ShopKeepJon
 
ShopKeepJon said:
David said:
Well, let's have at it some more then!
Umm... right!

...I need to learn to type faster...

ShopKeepJon

LOL, yep, a good skill. If you can only type with two fingers you are at a disadvantage. ;>
I think the boresight "problem" is a bit overstated. B weapons tend to be more powerful than most so NOT getting smacked with it every turn isn't a problem for me. When using it, I seem to get my moneys worth out of mine. So to me, its much ado about little. One can pick nits here, quite easily. I'd like to change a whole bunch of rules and boy is it fun to talk about doing so. ;)
 
Having assisted in the development of a couple of games, one of which I have been helping to fiddle with for the last 8 years or so(we can't get a rout rule we really like) I understand a lot of the neuances of this. I guess I look at some of the races, for example the Abbai and the Raiders, and I have a hard time seeing them winning 40% of the time. In some ways I agree with Burger that going back to the Armageddon FAP breakdown would be better, however, there are days when I look at the SFOS breakdown as even better for balance sake.

Part of the issue that CZuchlag and I were discussing last night, is that I don't think that the value of a given ship as an initiative sink is figured into it's PL level. As an example, the Tethys and Haven. They are 2 per patrol point. Are they good ships, eh(exception for the beam armed tethys), but they are very valuable as sinks. Small ships that can fight are even more valuable. Look at the Hermes in Armageddon. A long range Missle Rack and a T-Bolt. This was an initiative sink with teeth. It could stay at long range and damage opponents while keeping itself out of harms way. It was an awesome initiative sink, likely the best in the game.


Dave
 
Davesaint said:
Having assisted in the development of a couple of games, one of which I have been helping to fiddle with for the last 8 years or so(we can't get a rout rule we really like) I understand a lot of the neuances of this. I guess I look at some of the races, for example the Abbai and the Raiders, and I have a hard time seeing them winning 40% of the time. In some ways I agree with Burger that going back to the Armageddon FAP breakdown would be better, however, there are days when I look at the SFOS breakdown as even better for balance sake.

Part of the issue that CZuchlag and I were discussing last night, is that I don't think that the value of a given ship as an initiative sink is figured into it's PL level. As an example, the Tethys and Haven. They are 2 per patrol point. Are they good ships, eh(exception for the beam armed tethys), but they are very valuable as sinks. Small ships that can fight are even more valuable. Look at the Hermes in Armageddon. A long range Missle Rack and a T-Bolt. This was an initiative sink with teeth. It could stay at long range and damage opponents while keeping itself out of harms way. It was an awesome initiative sink, likely the best in the game.


Dave

Just as an aside, I think that some fleets find their place in campaign settings where balanced fights would be less likely anyway. Raiders make for a great "random occurance" for the game master to play with.
 
Ok to me this Argument (Because that what this has gotten down to with some of the incivilities that have occured) boils down to this. One camp says Boresight and initiative rules are broken or need reworking. Te other camp says that there is nothing wrong with the rules but that players from camp one are either A. Choosing the wrong Mixup of ships or B. Just being outmanuvered. Correct me if im wrong on that point. I personally fall into camp 2 Being someon who plays 2 Boresight heavy fleets on a regular basis. Im going to retreat to fluff and cannon here because lets all face it thats what the game is based on. Below is a Listing of the races and the cannon fluff behind them according to the fleet listing books:

Earth Years 2220-2249
At the dawn of the Earth Alliance as a galactic power, humanity had a limited view on space travel and starship combat. They built
their ships along the same lines as their terrestrial navies, and packed them with the best weapons their research scientists could
manage. Particle weaponry, laser cannon, gauss-principle projectiles and the ever-popular missile systems that had dominated
their planetside battles for centuries – these were the tools they had to work with.
Their ships were large, bulky and lacked many of the pleasantries that other races employed as a standard, but when their call to
duty came in the form of the rampaging Dilgar they acquitted themselves well. The ‘fl ying bricks’ of EarthForce heard the echoing
calls for aid of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds and hammered the warships of the Dilgar with a ferocity not seen in the galaxy
for many generations. Their so-called ‘low technology’ warships pushed the Dilgar all the way back to Omelos and held them
there until the star erupted, wiping out all life from the Dilgar’s colonies.
The nature of victory as it is, the Earth Alliance saw a decade of golden advancement following their success. They learned a
great deal from the Dilgar ships they managed to salvage, and received many technologies and scientifi c advancements from the
grateful League members who saw the valiant Earthers defeat the Dilgar. Their ships evolved where they could, and many projects
concerning what they had discovered fi lled the labs of research scientists all over the Earth Alliance.
Even so, it was humanity’s ego and arrogance that would nearly be its ultimate undoing. At the dawn of 2245, the Earth Alliance
became tangled into a horrible web of destruction of their own making. Heady with pride concerning their victory over the
Dilgar, they ran headlong into the most advanced race of the galactic powers – the Minbari.
Due to a miscommunication and an error in judgment on the part of a short-sighted EarthForce captain that resulted in the
death of the Minbari’s most revered political and religious leader, the Earth Alliance was thrown into a genocidal offensive that
they were not able to rise above. The Minbari had better technology, better-trained crews and were on a holy crusade to wipe out
the humans for their murderous act. Only once gaining victory through the trickery of Commander John Sheridan, the Earth
Alliance had its back against the wall and was facing utter extinction
. At the last moment, during the Battle of the Line where the
humans were making their last stand to buy time for the evacuation of Earth, the Minbari discovered a tragic truth that caused
their immediate surrender.
Somehow, the humans had won a war they could not have possibly even survived, and it left them in a state of awe, wonder and
realisation that their fl eet was not the all-powerful war machine they once believed it to be. They had much work to bring their
warships up to that of the other galactic governments, but with so much destroyed in the Earth/Minbari War, they had room to
grow and evolve.

Earth Years 2250-2266
After the near extinction level event that was the Earth/Minbari War befell the Earth Alliance, they entered into a state of
rebuilding and replenishing their once formidable fleet. Realising that they did not, in fact, have the powerful war fleet they once
believed, the Earth Alliance quickly took measures to rectify this.
Adding advanced internal systems into more of their ships, like rotating sections that gave crews areas of their ships with artificial
gravity and more spacious living quarters for the crew, the technological level of the Earth Alliance fleet grew. EarthForce left
behind many of their specialised hulls in favour of more ‘jack-of-all-trades’ style vessels that could later be retrofitted into more
focussed roles, making such specialisation the exception and not the rule as before. Newer ships capable of many tasks at once like
the Omega Destroyer and later, the Warlock Advanced Destroyer, became far more common. There were still a few specialised
craft, but EarthForce discovered the use of larger and more impressive ships and technologies to be far more useful.
The Third Age, although quite eventful across the galaxy as a whole, only saw two real conflicts in direct relation to the Earth
Alliance – but both would change Earth history. After the success of the Babylon Project with its fifth station, the Alliance
was rocked by the assassination of its president, replacing him with a megalomaniacal xenophobe named Clark. It was Clark’s
tyrannical rule and civilian-targeting terror tactics that started a massive Civil War that ended with Captain John Sheridan
leading a war fl eet to Earth itself and overthrowing Clark’s dark and sinister rule. This action would be the beginning of a new
governmental body in the galaxy – the Interstellar Alliance – of which Earth became a primary member under a new leader,
President Luchenko.
In 2266, after five years of relative peace and an upswing in Earth Alliance technology through its relations with the ISA, Earth
was rocked once more by a massive invasion force of sinister beings called the Drakh. The Drakh were servants to the Shadows,
and held Earth partly responsible for their masters’ departure from the galaxy. They came to Earth with a planet-destroying death
cloud, and were only barely thwarted by the efforts of two new ISA prototype warships – the Victory and the Excalibur. As the
Drakh were being driven off after the destruction of their planet-killer, they launched a horrible viral attack on Earth itself.
The resulting genetic and bio-engineered plague was expected to kill every form of life on the planet in no more than fi ve years
– forcing the Earth Alliance to enact a quarantine upon their world to keep humanity as a whole safe from the deadly infection.
Where they were previously interested in warships and fl eet assets across the spectrum of uses, the Earth Alliance quickly devoted
much of their funds into two simple goals: finding a cure and seeking revenge on the Drakh.

Earth had seen its share of tragedy in the past, but the virus bombing by the Drakh in 2266 was possibly the most devastating
blow ever felt on the human homeworld. Given five short years to either find a cure or see billions die, the galaxy collectively
looked upon Earth with mixed emotions. Some, like the Abbai, felt sadness for the loss and anger at the Drakh. Others, like the
Drazi and Gaim, turned away in an effort to ensure they were not infected by the doomed race. Even with the assistance of several
other species, it seemed the best hope for a cure rested on the shoulders of the newly assigned EarthForce crew of the ISA Excalibur
– the surviving prototype Victory-class destroyer being sent into the void in search of a cure before time would run out.
While riots and chaos ruled over much of Earth’s quarantined surface, a sight that the Drakh knew would have made their
Shadow masters proud, the rest of the Earth Alliance did their best to continue stronger than ever. Even though EarthDome,
most of the senate, and the President were infected and likely doomed – they had to move on. If they did not, they might show
weakness to the rest of the galaxy and invite possible attacks from old enemies or new ones yet to be discovered.
To dissuade all onlookers, the Earth Alliance governmental body focussed much of their resources on their fleet. Not only to keep
a strong arm in the matters of space around them, but also to enforce the strict quarantine over Earth. More than a few infected
vessels were vaporised by advanced cruisers and a fully rebuilt and strengthened defence grid trying to escape Earth’s orbit.
Billions of humans were still thriving on dozens of colonies, outposts and installations throughout Alliance space – they had to
be protected from any kind of spread of the bio-engineered plague.

Now Here we see The EA Grow In Superiority with the other races Due to Tech exchanges and advancements They werent always Equals with everyone else nor are they still with the Minbarri or the ancients or shadow or vorlons or Drakh even. Remember this It will be important later in this argument.

Of the so-called ‘younger’ races calling this galaxy its home, the Minbari are by far the most advanced. They have thrived on their
crystalline homeworld of Minbar for tens of thousands of years, and it shows in their mannerisms and technologies. Broken into a
simple caste system that divides each Minbari by the ‘calling of their heart’, their stable traditions and triadic government grew from
thousands of years of infighting and manipulation at the hands of the powerful and enigmatic Vorlons.
While patrolling the borders of Federation space in search of the evils of Z’ha’dum and the Shadows, the Grey Council stumbled
across a wandering alien vessel and set course to hail them. Much larger and more powerful than the small Earth Alliance Prometheus,
the Grey Sharlin made no gestures or awkward navigations that might be construed as warlike. In fact, as an added measure to show
the peaceful intentions and respect for the new species the Minbari opened all weapon ports – a show of great respect amongst
honourable Warrior Caste Minbari – and approached directly toward the Prometheus. The humans saw it as a hostile threat and, with
the highly powerful scanners of the Minbari accidentally jamming those of the inferior Hyperion
, battle stations were called and the
Prometheus opened fire. Not expecting an attack, defensive measures were not in place and the Grey Sharlin took a massive amount
of damage. Without bulkheads closed or non-essential systems routing power elsewhere, the attack tore through the much larger
Minbari vessel like an avalanche of fire and destruction.
Fearing retribution the Prometheus escaped in great haste, but the damage had been done. The attack had not only crippled the
flagship of the entire Minbari government but it had killed their spiritual leader and speaker of the Grey Council, Dukhat. The
Sharlin was stunned as word leaked out that Dukhat was dead, and messages were sent out to all Minbari ships. Soon shock turned
to sorrow, sorrow to anger and anger to hatred—which lit the fires of war in the hearts of their people.
In a frenzy of revenge, the Minbari lashed back at the humans with nothing short of blood on their minds. Setting every warship
– including some new models that were being saved for Valen’s predicted war – on the hunt for every human they could find, the
Minbari began the trip toward the human homeworld of Earth. It was a display of superiority that shook the galaxy. Never in a
thousand years had the highly advanced Minbari taken on the role of punisher, and many other galactic governments recoiled in fear
that they would be next.
The war raged on and eventually came to the human homeworld itself, where a strange turn of events would force the Grey Council
to submit an unconditional surrender. This pulled tensions tightly between the Warrior Caste, who were on the very edge of victory
and the Religious Caste who discovered an important fact that caused the surrender. The war was over, but tensions were still very
much on the high, even between the Castes themselves.
The birth of newer neutron lasers and more focused fusion cannons replaced older models, as continuous fire attacks were recorded as
being far more effective against the enemy’s vessels burst or pulsing
fire. Training exercises that took great advantage of their jamming
abilities and focused fi re became standard for all pilots and the Nial heavy fighter took the place of nearly all other models.
Offensively, superior ranges allows the fi rst strike to go to the Minbari. A good initial strike from a long distance can do one of two
things. First, if all captains focus their fi re on a single cruiser or frigate they ought to destroy it utterly
. This hurts enemy morale and
also showers the area with debris that could pulverise ships too close to the carefully chosen target. Second, if every ship targets a
different vessel along an enemy’s battle line the chances are good that a critical system might be damaged in a handful of them. This
ruins the enemy’s consolidated front, separates fl ight groups and might cripple attack strategies long before they ever begin. The fi rst
volley can be what wins a fi ght for the Minbari, and many battles end shortly thereafter.
While this superiority makes all the difference against younger races, the Minbari must never become complacent. When the allies
of the Shadows, the powerful Drakh, began to fight openly with the Interstellar Alliance, the Minbari came to their aid more than a
few times. Unfortunately, as the Vorlons had aided the Minbari technologically, so too had the Shadows assisted the Drakh. When
fi ghting against these advanced races, or even back when the Shadows themselves were a threat, Minbari vessels had to rely on sheer
firepower focused on a single enemy until it crumpled to get by.
Highly advanced, highly skilled and dauntless sometimes to a fault
, the Minbari Federation is amongst the most powerful governments
in the galaxy. A mystery to most, and a fearsome foe to others, they are better left alone to their devices. For those who meddle in their
affairs may soon fi nd their sky alight with Jump Engines – a sight seldom forgotten, should they live through the ensuing confl ict.

Here it says Teh Minbarri are By Far the Superior Rae and That By this They should win all battles. They were not Created Equal with The Dilgar or the Drazi or the Brakiri or anyone else for that matter.

Becoming a major power in the galactic struggles was never a plan for the teeming agrarian inhabitants of the lush world called
Narn. They were happy to live in their family-based villages on their homeworld, tending their crops and reciting the words of the
prophets. It was through the actions of unwanted visitors that the Narn became aware of other beings in the galaxy.
The Centauri came to the Narn with outstretched arms and welcoming smiles – all the while counting in their heads the fortune
they would make. In a very few short weeks, with the aid of the Centauri’s advanced war and punitive technologies, the Narn
were enslaved. It was a dire time for the Narn for the Centauri were harsh and merciless taskmasters and the Narn Homeworld
was ripped asunder from strip mining, deforestation and polluting factories. Narn were shipped off to other planets and systems
nearby to be used as labour in new production colonies – they were well suited for work and survival in less-than-savoury
conditions. Soon there were many thousands of Narn across a dozen systems or more.
Over decades the Narn began to steal and convert weaponry from the Centauri, breaking key components off of existing machinery
or systems to eventually construct their own elsewhere
. They worked under the lash, punished severely for their frequent mistakes
– many died during the process. It was worth the effort however, as 82 years after the Centauri landed, the Kha’Ri ordered the
uprising.
It was bloody and costly to the Centauri, who were not prepared to fi ght against the hordes of thick-skinned ‘primitives’ they
brought to all their colonies and essentially equipped with weapons of war. After months of bitter fi ghting and consistently lost
reinforcement, the Centauri chose to pull out of the Narn systems – behind thousands of factories, processors and even docked
spacecraft for the Narn to call spoils. The Narn had removed a star-borne threat from their planet and their voices were raised in
rejoicing. It came at a great cost once more, as the Narn had freed dozens of broken and beaten planets pockmarked by mining
and clouded by industrial pollution. Their beautiful Homeworld was an angry place and the Narn themselves had transformed
from agrarian farmers to bloodthirsty guerrillas – immediately ready to go into the stars after the Centauri.
Ripping out the frills and aesthetics that most Centauri vessels are woven with, the Narn began removing secondary power drains
like sonic showers and emptying cargo bays to create barracks. Smaller Centauri ships were cannibalised to add their weaponry
to larger hulls, welding heavy bulkheads along the wide hallways – Narn were happy in small places and would rather have more
protection than room to dance and frolic. Ship reactors were augmented and clocked over their safety regulations, the excess
radiation a slight tingle to the resilient Narn.
During the rebellion the Narn often would use fi ghter reactor cores as makeshift bombs that levelled buildings or filled areas with
deadly radioactive debris. Once in space they realised the potential to do this in groups of starships, and the first energy mine
projectors were created. Originally using actual Centauri fighter-cores but later having a reactor-charge of their own, the energy
mine is a powerful deterrent against massive fighter use against the Narn – something that they have difficulties defending against
otherwise.
The energy mine has seen a few alterations, like the high-radioactive pulsar and armour-punching heavy varieties, but
several Narn hulls mount a number of these weapons. One in particular, the Dag’Kar, is a small frame built around an amazing
six launch tubes and an accompanying four torpedo emitters! A supporting vessel of amazing potential, the Dag’Kar has grown
into a much-feared target by all of the enemies of the Narn.
Narn captains have but one rule – never give, never bend and always kill the alpha first. Using the often-massive weapon payloads
of heavier Narn vessels, fl eet admirals have no problems overwhelming a target when they converge upon it. Maximise damage
control and have repair crews standing by for the approach, when all heavy cruisers fly directly at a pre-designated ship or
installation that has been identifi ed as the ‘alpha.’ Used to fighting against the pack tactics of the Centauri, the alpha is almost
always the one ship that is varied from the rest or drastically broader in armament. All ahead, using only torpedo tubes and e-mine
barrages to soften up the enemy while barrelling forward toward the designated target, Narn heavy attack vessels can devour most
ships in a few moments of concentrated fire
. Not only does this take out hopefully the most advanced enemy ship, but historically
it also contained the highest amount of nobility– a trophy-worthy boon to any Narn captain!
Everything the Narn learned about warfare, violence and cruelty they learned from the Centauri, and they know the strength of
will their hatred for them brings. They are prepared to withstand enemy
fire until they are holding the ship together by hand, if it
means bringing that massive mag gun to bear on the enemy. Their ships are generally built like their resolve, thick and enduring,
and can withstand heavy attacks to escape and fight again elsewhere. Good Narn fleet admirals know the importance surviving a
battle, even if it means leaving the engagement to return later and pick up the pieces. After all, they have been picking up pieces
all of their lives – their technology, their world and their freedom.


If This Doesnt Tell you How You should Play narn and That they are made to die But still have the last ship standing I dont know what does. A Heavy Broesight Race for Its main damage weapons this shows The fluff that went into designing the ships and thier weapon systems here.


Ever since their earliest days on Centauri Prime, the Centauri have had a strong instinct to conquer and dominate outward. Completely
eliminating the only sentient race to share their homeworld, the Xon, well before they even could leave their planet, the Centauri have
honed picking on lesser species to a razor’s edge. Once able to sail the stars on reverse-engineered vessels that crashed on their world,
they roared out into the galaxy with a purpose – to create the most powerful empire imaginable.
The Centauri are a people of excesses. Wine, women, song and food were guilty pleasures of the High Houses, and their eyes would
grow wide at the sight of something bigger, better or more appealing in an instant. There is no word in the Centauri tongue for
‘enough’, but there are over a hundred that are used for boasting. It is no wonder then that the Royal Navy was massive, far larger
than needed considering they had not even come across a threatening enemy against which to utilise it. From a rumour and whispers
the largest armada of star ships to grace the galaxy was formed.
They pushed hard into outside systems, growing by leaps and bounds over many races. Some smaller worlds fought hard for their
freedom, but the ‘Lion of the Galaxy’ that the Republic had become pounded them into submission with blazing shows of force.
Skirmishes were becoming more frequent and the Centaurum began to alter the organisation of the navy into three sections, the
division of which is still used in current fleet structures. The Expeditionary Fleet and Battle Fleet, whose only role was to fight the
fronts to expand the Republic’s borders, and the Garrison Fleet, who remained in pickets and patrols around Centauri Prime.
As with any major empire, the foundation became unstable and could not hold the weight of the whole anymore. The High Houses
squabbled, plotted against one another to gain control of new and rich systems and eventually even sabotaged their own fl eets to
ensure certain Houses’ failure and disfavour. Like a tower built on too few pillars, the Centauri Republic collapsed in upon itself.
Captains of larger ships such as the Primus or Octurion treat themselves as mobile fortresses. With heavy weaponry on all sides, and
defensive turrets and fighters ready, these giants can sail carelessly into the centre of an engagement to draw a portion of fire away
from the more fragile hunting packs circling the edges of a battle. Their powerful weapons should be used to finish off a limping
enemy left behind after one of the hunting packs has injured and herded it into the larger ship’s field of fire. Centauri battle plans are
sometimes shaped like a corkscrew, with hunting packs circling slowly inward toward the awaiting flagship in the centre.
Light fighters like the Sentri and especially Razik wings are rarely used for ship targets due to their woeful lack of punch. Great
dogfighters and quite agile in the hands of the right pilot, they are terribly fragile and cannot withstand much damage. Against
superior opponents, either in size or skill, Sentri wings are little more than annoyances that keep an enemy’s sensors clogged with
random blips of information. Clouds of Sentris can theoretically hinder larger vessels, but most captains know this to be rare and
would much rather save the pilots for a better use later.
The first and most important lesson a Centauri captain is taught is the unforgiving nature of an exploding ally. So often are the
Centauri grouped closely in hunting packs that when one is fi nished, on the verge of detonation, the others should leave them for
dead. Every crewman that is saved on one of those burning hulks has over a thousand dead brothers who were not so lucky when
their ship fi nally exploded – taking out any rescue attempts in the process. The Navy pays the House in which you come from greatly
upon your death, so there is little harm in leaving you behind if your ship is crippled. Heroes do not live long in the Centauri Royal
Navy; there is no room for them.
Cold and calculating with a taste for the hunt, the Centauri have always been the galaxy’s most prolifi c predator. It shows in their
battles and it shows in their dealings throughout the ages. With the Drakh now pulling their strings, it may only be a matter of time
before the Lion of the Galaxy roars again – with a brand new voice.

Not Much here

Formed in the wake of the great Shadow War, an alliance of races spanning the galaxy larger even than the League of Non-Aligned
Worlds calling itself the Interstellar Alliance (also known as the ISA) has risen.
It has a message of peace to those without, and a
promise of war to any who would attack it. Led by President John Sheridan – the captain of Babylon 5 during the three years prior
to the ISA’s founding in 2262 – and a select cabinet of individuals from several governments, the Interstellar Alliance is a powerful
ally to dozens of systems throughout the galaxy.
At the head of this effort was the surprisingly powerful White Star Fleet. Highly advanced fast attack frigates made of a combination
of Vorlon and Minbari technologies, each White Star is a match for ships much larger than itself. Between their self-knitting hulls and
ultra-powerful Minbari neutron laser arrays, these ‘star angels’ can fl y circles around most vessels of their class using powerful gravitic
engines and stabilisers. Designed for hit and run attacks, with each one capable of entering and exiting hyperspace on its own, the
White Star was perfect for its original purpose.

Piloted solely by the Rangers, the original White Star Fleet was primarily used for reconnaissance and as a quick response force. A pair
of White Stars is more than enough to make petty raiders turn tail and run, and knowing that more could be lurking just beyond a
Jump point often gives the rest pause. This fear of lurking White Stars actually gave birth to many sneaky Ranger tactics to lend even
more to the terror tactic. Several engagements were seen as wave after wave of White Star attacks, when in actuality they were merely
jumping in and out of hyperspace – one opening a point while the other’s jump engines recharged and vice versa.
For fi ve years the Interstellar Alliance saw its greatest period of growth. While raiders were always a constant annoyance here and
there, and the Drakh amassing a secret armada, they found time to patch their wounds and buff out rough spots in their own forces.
Although having access to any number of vessels from their member governments when dealing in their areas of space, or upon
request elsewhere, ISA military researchers felt it necessary to fi ll some of their own gaps with unique vessels for their organisation.
The fi rst step was to replace or repair the numerous White Stars that met their end during the Shadow War. With so many in
disrepair and a need for improvement (at least in the minds of never-satisfied research scientists), new uses for the White Star
technology appeared.
Varieties of the White Star’s hull and technology appeared in fleets, some carrying new and experimental armaments that even the
Rangers could not guess as to where they came from. By 2266 there were a handful of minor variants of the White Star, although
nearly seamlessly identical to the eye or scanner – until laser-guided rail guns and ballistic missile racks opened up between the
‘dragon’s fire’ of a neutron laser!
The need for mid-sized ships was more than sated, but President Sheridan still wanted something
more. Something different.
Using the best tools of their member races, mixed liberally with numerous White Stars, the Interstellar Alliance can be as diverse as they
want to be in any engagement.
Some might fi ll a foe’s line with energy mines from Narn vessels before lashing out with concentrated
neutron laser fire, while others will use the jamming abilities of the Minbari to confuse while White Star flight squadrons get into
perfect positions for attack runs. It is entirely up to each commander, but some tricks have held constant under the ever-evolving
tactical colleges of the Anla’shok Rangers.
White Stars should always be grouped with one another or, in cases where the Freehold demands it so, with a Drazi Solarhawk or
two. They, or any other agile vessel with a deadly fore armament, work very well with the White Star Fleet – as long as the Rangers
inside the White Stars remember to keep that Drazi crew in line and on target! They have a tendency to focus their attention too
much, and get bogged down in dealing with a previously damaged target even if it puts they themselves in danger
. Any good White
Star crewmember can tell you that speed and target choice is the only thing that keeps you out of an early grave. Although powerful
offensively, the White Star is not designed to withstand much direct punishment, and Rangers wishing not to exercise the ‘die for the
One’ half of their motto every engagement will remember where the switch for the jump engine is at all times.
Like mirror opposites, the Victory-class is a bastion of survivability that can carve a swathe in even the advanced ship lines of the
Drakh.
It is an unsubtle combatant, and unloads massive arrays of laser and fusion fire into all arcs around it, sailing forward into an
engagement fearless of most enemy fire – which will in turn be caught by advanced defence grid turrets or drawn away quickly by the
full wing of Starfury heavy fighters each Victory-class comes with as standard. Like a pillar of the battle, every ISA commander that
has access to a Victory-class destroyer should expect it to hold up its fair share and then some.

THe Bold Portions say it all here. The ISA Are The Best Of all worlds and should be very very hard to defeat. They werent Created Equal Sorry.

The co-founders of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds, the Abbai are quite possibly the most stable culture in the galaxy amongst
the spacefaring races – even including the Minbari. Aquatic and technologically advanced, the Abbai serve as the cement between
the constantly shifting cornerstones of the League. Without their constant efforts in the meeting halls and on the jump routes the
League may have fallen apart decades ago.
The Abbai have perfected the powerful particle array turrets used by many other races. Designed to put out an oppressive rate of
fi re, the Abbai quad array fi lls space around most Abbai vessels with a cloud of deadly charged particle bursts. If forced to turn these
weapons against fi ghters or small ships there is little hope for them, which is why most Abbai fl eet shaath (their admiral-level military
offi cers) will broadcast well in advance that a quad array armed vessel is about to fi re upon a given target. Should the attackers
continue, it is at their own risk. Larger targets should not consider themselves immune, as once a single Bimith Defender, a warship
with a staggering number of quad arrays at its disposal, dismantled a Dilgar flagship into component parts with a single volley!
Other major advancements the Abbai have added to their fl eets are primarily defensive. Rapid-fi ring particle impeders, streams that
trigger ballistic impacts or alter particle blast routes (much like the Earth Alliance’s interceptors), are considered basic ideas to the
research scientists of the Abbai. Augmenting many of their ships are situational gravitic shields. Like a defence turret that throws up
a gravitic anomaly to stop incoming fire, the shield generators are very complex and extremely sensitive to abuse. A single misaligned
crystal matrix could cause the anomaly to speed up instead of slow down incoming attacks, or even the collapse of the generator in
a spectacular and expensive implosion.
Those who look upon the Abbai as a weak race of peaceniks and complete pacifi sts have never been on the receiving end of an Abbai
blockade fl eet, or tried to argue with them over the defence of an installation. No one protects better that the Abbai, even if it means
actively seeking out the threat and ending it well before it gets the chance to take even one more life than it already has. Some might
make the mistake of underestimating their fleets’ ability, but never more than once. Never.

The Highlited Portions here Suggest that The abbai while a defensive fleet are fragile and best if put with other more offensive fleets within the league.

One of the founding fathers of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds, the Brakiri became one of the most powerful and fi nancially
infl uential spacefaring governments in the entire galaxy. Through a series of culturally signifi cant incidents, they went from
primitive water clans in the caverns of their desert homeworld of Brakos to interstellar power brokers capable of literally buying
or selling entire planets.
Older Brakiri military vessels used Dilgar pulsar technology mixed liberally with Centauri gravitic generators to power most of
their weapons. Early ships carried dozens of silicon-lenses to focus gravitic bursts called graviton pulsars, which used miniscule
torrents of ultra-high gravity to crush the hulls of targets. Although powerful, they were always terribly short-ranged and truly
only effi cient against fi ghters and assault craft. Using the same technology as laser weapons which focus light at great distances,
the Brakiri created the graviton beam. Fitted to many of their larger vessels (as the weapons have a massive power draw) the beam
is capable of crushing hull armour for an extended period of time, quite literally drilling deeper into a target.
It was the creation of the graviton beam that forged the most recognisable hull in the Brakiri fl eet. The Avioki cruiser, built
separately and commonly by all of the major companies in the Krona, is the cornerstone of every fl eet that leaves a Syndicracy
starbase. While oddly shaped and expensive to create, the Avioki is built for extremely long-ranged trips or hastily planned combat
jumps. Each one is fi tted with jump engines and alternate weapon-routed power supplies to show up to any situation equally ready
to either run from or battle whatever it might fi nd there. There are several variants of the hull, each mainly employed by whatever
Krona company constructed it, but the most common version brings a deadly quartet of graviton beams to its engagements.
Always looking to minimise losses, Brakiri fl eets work very well with support craft requested from other League allies. It is very
common for a high-end governmental business deal to include clauses and de facto catches that require business partners to join
in picket fl eets and confl ict engagements, sometimes at a great cost to the agreeing government. Particularly fond of fi ghting
alongside Drazi, who often rush straight at an enemy with guns blazing, while Brakiri executive generals gladly play rear support,
giving them ample time to retreat should the battle go sour
. This might leave their allies behind, but it saves millions of credits
in starship parts and repairs.
The most underestimated weapon in the Brakiri arsenal is the grav-shifter. Brakiri vessels are not known for their agility or speed
and the majority of their losses come not from being outgunned, but outmanoeuvred.
The shifter allows the Brakiri fl eet to
disrupt enemy tactics and cause massive vessels that are diffi cult to set into position to go off course, or worse, collide with other
ships or debris. Crafty generals will try to target a ship’s steering thrusters or main power engines before attacking with a gravshifter,
sending the damaged ships careening away while they struggle to regain control over their unwillingly retreating vessel.
Although the Brakiri are not crack pilots and battle each other as often as they do an outside danger, they are a powerful
governmental force in the League and the Interstellar Alliance. It is rumoured they were powerful enough at one time to actually
purchase a large portion of Babylon 5 for one of their holy days, which is a feat fi nancially unknown in the galaxy before or since.
They go where they need to, they buy what they have to and they fi ght when they feel they can come out on top. They would
rather fi ght an enemy with memos, credits and blame but are just as happy using gravitons, cannons and fl ame!

Highlighted Portions here Show That The Brakiri Are Great artillery and meant to be Used tat way. Notice again The Pick On the Drazi.

Possibly the most controversial species in the League of Non-Aligned Worlds, the Drazi are single-handedly responsible for well over a
hundred border confl icts, political wars and other acts of aggression since their admittance to the organisation. They can be relied on
to always jump to the short conclusion, be the fi rst to swing punches and to bring warships to bear on what would be an otherwise
peaceful moment. There is no such thing as a peaceful Drazi, unless you count the dead!
Drazi as a race are driven instinctually to be aggressive hunters, ready to pounce on any scrap of prey that can be found on their harsh
homeworld of Zhabar. Evolving as they did, it was the only way to ensure survival when so many of your peers wanted to crowd you
out of the gene pool. They are thick-scaled warriors with stout frames and strong muscles. Growing up in Drazi society there is only
one skill that will defi ne all others – the ability to fi ght.
The Freehold itself was based around this idea and Drazi colonies and outposts are in a constant shift of political control and martial
law, something that is very common in Drazi communities. These everyday battles in Freehold space are rarely deadly, and rarely even
paid much attention to. Only extremely important duels or challenges might be scrutinised, even going as far as televising the details.
This almost always fuels riots in the streets as one side’s supporters begin to mix with the other. Inherently pack creatures, they battle
like this to fi ll the void that civilisation opened in their instincts
. When the dust clears and the few infirm or inept combatants have
been removed, the society is stronger and tighter knit than before. The weak fall away to leave the strong and capable in power.
Discovering particle acceleration as a weapon long before figuring that it could be used in any other field, Drazi arms generally are
based around the simple-yet-effective technology. Small, easy to operate and effi cient for the amount of power they use, particle guns
and cannon make up the majority of the Drazi fl eet armament. They have found several ways to modify, augment or enhance its
effects a dozen times over. Other forms of attack use too much energy, drawing away necessary thrust from engines – which is the
foundation of any Drazi vessel!
Good and powerful engines are a necessity in any Drazi warship as it is tradition to run headlong at an enemy in order to best it.
While not the soundest of space combat practices, Drazi ships are fast and agile as a result. They can rush into an engagement with
weapon systems hot, drawing very little energy from their superheated plasma core engines. With an external solar gathering surface
and enough heat sinks and exhaust ports to vent off excess radiation, the superstructure of most Drazi ships suffer slightly to make
room for weapons and their necessary energy supplies.
The Drazi Freehold might be a loose cannon and the cause of strife to more than a few of its allies and galactic neighbours, but they
can be depended upon to do one thing: battle any enemy until one must admit defeat. It is up to all others to stay out of the way.

The Agreesors of and Teh Distractors of teh league. Thier mentality show why They have all thier Boresight weapons because They are always going Dead on at someone.
The Gaim Intelligence has always had a touch of a mystery. The decisions of their centuries-old Queens from within the hivecities
of N’Chak’fa are enigmatic and sometimes without obvious rhyme or reason. Their hive-mind connects them in ways
that no other species can boast, and it gives them tremendous solidarity as a species. When an idea rips through their ranks on
empathic-pheromone receptors, it is as if they all understand it as their own. Unifi ed and loyal under the Queens, the Gaim are
truly alien.
After joining the League and learning of others’ starships through buying and salvaging commonplace hulls from their neighbours
and peers, the Gaim began secretly building their own style of vessels using their mastery of biological and architectural sciences.
These new hulls, seeing only service on small excursions along local protected jump routes and asteroid fi elds, saw use after the
majority of their ‘borrowed’ fl eet was wiped out during the Shadow War. The Gaim withdrew into itself to rebuild, staying
apprised of galactic affairs, but not involving themselves.
Upon joining the ISA, young Queens were dispatched to the stars on specially-crafted ships, and many of the bloated insectoids
were taken to the homeworlds of their peers. The fl eets of the Gaim Queens were akin to honour guards, massive vessels fi lled
with bulkheads and reinforced tubing to pack hundreds of crew drones and deadly bio-engineered warriors into tight rooms and
important levels. These ships sailed on biologically-fuelled plasma, allowing the Gaim to fi ll their ships with their natural methane
atmospheres without fear of rupture or explosion by sparking fusion engines.
In order to protect the number of Queens fl ying through the galaxy, the Gaim designed high-science versions of their oldest
weaponry to fi t to the newest vessels of their fl eet. Continuing to use older particle-throwing scatterguns as defence turrets, they
modifi ed the fi ring capacity on larger models to emit laser energy at a similar rate. This new gatling laser vomits a stream of
staccato fi re faster than the eye can track, almost making it seem like a single constant beam of coherent light. In a similar vein,
the old and unreliable packet torpedoes were fi lled with positively-charged reactive masses instead of the formerly negative ones.
Instead of detonating in shards of destructive energy, the bomb fi lls an area of space with electron-stripping photons at signifi cant
ranges – almost assuredly eliminating small craft and fi ghters. The most interesting and powerful aspect of the Gaim fl eets on
the move is the use of manned-missiles. Drone pilots are easy to hatch and created to be disposable, so whether they are trying to
bring bio-plasma emitters to bear on a target or setting their reactor to overload before burying themselves in the enemy’s hull,
they are nothing more than another asset to be spent at the Queens’ whim.
Why exactly the Gaim Intelligence have chosen to leave their planet to seek others is a mystery to the entire galaxy. What is
known is that a young Queen landed on Earth a week before the Drakh attacked and poisoned it in 2266. The Queen, her retinue
and all of the hatchling grubs were specifi cally susceptible to the virus and died violently in just a few days. Ever since, even the
High Queens have been on the move, their gigantic hive-ships soaring through hyperspace toward some unknown and terrifying.

Fighter Clearance and screening Again another cog In teh League Fleet.

The pak’ma’ra are carrion eaters and scavengers of the highest calibre, and little escapes their grasp as they drift through the galaxy.
Few notice what the pak’ma’ra are doing, usually out of a deep sense of revulsion. The pak’ma’ra are everywhere. They accomplish this
not by high technology or telepathic infl uence but through the collective ignorance and prejudice set against them.
The fl eets of the pak’ma’ra revolve around their ability to make lucrative trade contracts over the highly-prized Quantium-40 that is
thick on many of their system’s worlds and moons. In exchange for decent trade taxation and Q-40 prices several League races donate
older starship hulls to the pak’ma’ra. Gutting these vessels of foreign technologies, the pak’ma’ra refi t the ships to better suit their needs.
Those who have traded vessels to the pak’ma’ra are sometimes horrifi ed to fi nd their former ships fi lled with junk, organic leftovers and
other materials. Once modifi ed for the carrion eaters’ lifestyle and dietary habits, they can ply the space lanes for as long as they wish.
Often carrying expensive loads of Quantium-40, the pak’ma’ra have had to heavily augment their vessels in order to protect themselves
from raiders and other enemies. Masters of plasma technology, every weapon system on their ships is tied into a central plasma-battery
engine. The use of plasma is considered by most as an old and defunct relic of the shipbuilding industry, yet the pak’ma’ra rely on it. They
have managed to deploy powerful heavy plasma cannons on very small ships and fi t the deadly and infamous plasma torpedo launcher
in order to give them a longer-ranged punch. Not known for the ferocity of their marines or the agility of their pilots, every ship is fi tted
with plasma web interceptors to spin deadly strands of superheated gas around enemy fi ghters, literally slicing them to ribbons.
Only having a single system that contains their homeworld of Melat allows the pak’ma’ra to mass a signifi cant and numerous defence
fl eet around their only true assets. They blockade the only jump gate into their system with a formidable fl eet and a hulking space
station nicknamed the Abattoir by spacers everywhere.
The pak’ma’ra exist mainly as traders and wanderers of the galaxy, enjoying their ability to move among the worlds of others without
hassle. Some believe the carrion eaters have an ulterior motive for placing so many of their kind in the communities of the other races,
considering how disliked their presence tends to be.

Not designed to be a viable fleet by themselves. I hope this is evident in the fluff.

Withdrawn and mysterious, the Vree have been amongst the stars long before most of the other spacefaring races, save maybe only
the Minbari.
They are generally an enigma, using technologies that baffle the other League races to ends that seem unbelievable
to onlookers. Although they are secretive and purposefully vague on all matters, the Vree have been involved in nearly every major
war or conflict this galaxy has seen in over a thousand years.
The Vree are short, grey-skinned humanoids with natural telepathic abilities that allow them to communicate easily with the
many species they have investigated over the centuries. Their brightly lit saucers have landed on a thousand different planets for
a hundred different reasons, if only to try and map out the galaxy. They are secretive, but have no issue meeting new species on
their own terms. Vree are creatures of plan and logic, and once an equation has been laid to work it will only be deviated from in
cases of prior engagements or true emergencies.
This ability to structure and confirm the cause and effect of anything a Vree plans to do has made them seem cold and mathematical
to many other races, who see this lack of emotional steerage as a lack of moral conviction. This could not be more wrong. They
have a collective view upon their society and its dealings almost as total as the hive mind of the Gaim. Linked by their innate
telepathic abilities, the Vree are aware what is best for their Guild as a whole and do not need to seek to ask whys or why nots.
The resulting society is a staggered number of large Guilds that work more or less in harmony and unison for the common goals
of the Conglomerate.
Vree war saucers are capable of firing their weapons in all directions at the same time they can manoeuvre in all three axis without
fail. With little to no margin of error, the Vree can bring any number of their weapon arrays to target multiple enemy ships at
once. Vree ships are best served in the centre of an engagement where they can unleash their antimatter shots upon several targets,
relying on their partners and allies to make up for their own wartime misgivings. They have good fi ghters with extremely good
coordination between the telepathic pilots, but extremely inefficient carriers. This means very few Vree engagements support
fighters, as they would much rather not risk their own kind when they can pay to bring other governments’ carriers to their battles,
saving their own fighters for outpost and station defences where they are better served.
The Vree have more dealings, more old contracts and agreements in place within the League than possibly even the Brakiri, and
are far more quiet about who they do and do not owe. Leverage is just another card to be played when the time is right. They are
silent and powerful, and do not answer to anyone – not even the League at times it seems. Ever present in matters of trade and
commerce, policing the mapped routes and the void between the spaces, their distinct saucer ships can be seen all over the galaxy.
No one knows when the Vree might be sent to parlay, scout or attack.
No one ever knows what the Vree are going to do. They prefer it that way.

I think The only League fleet that can be played sperately and always stand a chance at winning. They are Teh Oldest save Teh ancients shadows/vorlons and Minbarri. They can also Mix well within a league fleet.

Not truly a faction in the purest sense, the Raiders of the galaxy are a motley crew of thieves, assassins, smugglers and outlaws that
gather in small cells and communities with other likeminded individuals. Preying on smaller, weaker systems or jump routes and
shipping lanes unable to protect themselves, Raiders carve their livelihoods directly from the gains of others. Some are little more
than pirates, while others are part of huge organisations with starbase headquarters and control fl eets of vessels.
There are some more powerful Raider cells throughout the galaxy that acquire many larger vessels from various League governments
or civilian escort cruisers, turning a few scattered fi ghter-laden carriers into a capable fl eet. These Raider fl eets will eventually
need to come into a starbase to dock for refuelling, repairs or unloading – which is why many outdated explorer outposts are
claimed as soon as one presents itself. Left vacant by the exploring governments or corporations that fi rst traversed various areas,
these outposts are perfect. Large cargo and supply bays, enough shuttle bay access to store a hundred fi ghters or more and often
elaborate maps and diagrams of the area’s jump gates and routes.
With better facilities, Raiders can equip and upkeep larger warships designed (mostly from scavenged and salvaged parts) for
attack runs on larger convoys that might have actual military support. Routinely called ‘battlewagons’, these ships are cheap
and easy to maintain, and pack far more fi repower than the ships that collectively made up its parts. These battlewagons are
the primary escort to carriers, even though both can vomit clouds of Delta-Vs. Without knowing which ships may or may not
come back from any particular raid, every attack will require multiple working jump engines on multiple vessels. A quick escape
is preferable to a fi ery destruction or any number of punishments called for by the various galactic governments. Raiding is a
diffi cult and hazardous life, but it is one of the oldest professions to be found between the stars. When the fi rst races began to
make a profi t from trade between planets, the fi rst Raiders soon crept out of the void to skim off of it.
When undertaking any sort of engagement, a Raider fl eet leader should never let better technology or faster ships get him down
– nothing stings more to a career military offi cer like being duped by ‘lowly Raiders.’ It does mean that every shot has to count
and that any situation could call for a full retreat, possibly even leaving behind your friends and cellmates just to slow down the
authorities. When engaged in a fl eet battle with something other than civilian tankers and police cutters, Raider forces must hit
hard to cripple as early as their second-rate weaponry will allow. Each ship damaged in any way is a small victory towards the
greater one, because a crippled vessel not only cannot harm you but they may also be claimed for salvage after a battle is won.
This is the main purpose for the swarms of Delta-Vs every Raider ship packs full of.
Small and diffi cult to hit, the Delta-Vs’ sole role in the fl eet is to dogfi ght against other fi ghters, keeping them away from the
sometimes-cumbersome battlewagons. They can be used in a pinch as ‘system snipers’ against space stations or larger capital ships,
but most vessels that large carry adequate anti-fi ghter defences. Raider commanders that order suicide runs against Earth Alliance
capital ships or Abbai defence frigates will soon fi nd themselves staring at empty fi ghter bays and the bodies of an equal amount
of dead pilots.
Battlewagons of any variety pack a pretty decent punch for being patchwork capital ships, and they work well in pairs. One
‘wagon pours on the direct fi re into a target while one releases fi ghters, then the other does the same to cover both his fi ghters
and the other ship playing carrier. When all fi ghters are away, all offensive fi re should be aimed at the greatest threat to the fi ghter
wings – unless of course the battlewagon feels more endangered. After all the Delta-Vs carry less than an hour of life-support and
would be dead anyway if their carrier is destroyed!
There are dozens upon dozens of Raider cells in existence throughout the galaxy, even during the height of the Interstellar Alliance
and their constant patrols. When one cell is destroyed or routed, two others pop up elsewhere to distract the authorities – then
another creeps into the original cell’s place! Greed is universal, and too many societies make it too easy to assemble sizeable Raider
fl eets in a surprisingly short amount of time. Rare to see in a military battle, the Raider forces scattered along the jump routes and
travelled places are a constant. It will be a great day when all places are free of them, but it is a day long off.

Designed to be a Nuiscance and nothing more unless your playing a specific scenario. Again Part of The cannon Fluff.

The ships of the Ancients represent the most powerful vessels available in A Call to Arms, with each able to crush even the new
Armageddon level ships found in this book. They do not form a standard fl eet but instead should be used for special scenarios
and one-off battles. Each is unique – there is literally only one example of each type of Ancients ship in the galaxy, and all fi ve
disappear in the early part of the Earth Year 2261.
Be warned – just one of the Ancients is a daunting prospect for even the largest fl eet and you can expect a real mauling whenever
facing them in battle!

That says it all. They arent designed to be an everyday fleet and something or a group of somethings that add up to its priority level are designed to intentionally fail.

The Drakh are the most active and vengeful of the Shadows’ servants. They were rescued by the Shadows millennia ago when their
world was destroyed by the Vorlons and given a new home deep within the darkness. Over the next few thousand years, the Drakh
slowly rebuilt. No other race had ever developed in such close proximity to the darkness and the Drakh were horribly warped by
it. In many ways, the Shadows treated the Drakh like the Vorlons treated the other younger races. The Shadows experimented on
the Drakh, augmented them, taught them and guided them towards the Shadow philosophy of chaos. To the Drakh, the Shadows
were parents, teachers and dark angels with eyes of fi re.
As the Drakh became more and more active in the darkness, they abandoned their second homeworld, building vast clanships
capable of supporting hundreds of thousands of Drakh. These self-sustaining vessels took to the stars, hiding from the eyes of the
Vorlons by waiting in the gulfs between systems for decades at a time. The Drakh Unity’s forces are likely the equal of the Earth
Alliance or Centauri Republic but they have no borders or colony worlds to pin them down. The Drakh are a lurking threat on
the fringes of the galaxy.
The Drakh never understood why the Shadows left the galaxy and the race was essentially driven mad by the abandonment.
The loss of Z’ha’dum also hurt them deeply. They swore vengeance on the Interstellar Alliance and all the other Vorlon-touched
races, vowing to destroy their sacred worlds and tear down their gods just as the ISA had destroyed Z’ha’dum and driven away
the Shadows.
With access to Shadow technology and their fl eets scattered in well-concealed hiding places when not in use, the Drakh pose
a very clear and present danger to every civilised government in the galaxy. Their ability to attack almost anywhere at a whim,
as demonstrated by the Drakh’s strike against Earth, combined with motives that are not fully understood, has caused many
headaches within the Interstellar Alliance.
Though they had close relations with the Shadows for centuries, the Drakh have not simply taken what remained of their masters’
technology on Z’ha’dum. Rather, they have adapted it for their own unique physiology and purposes, whatever they might
ultimately be. Drakh spacecraft are therefore very distinctive and betray no external trace of their origins. A fl eet engaging the
Drakh for the fi rst time are unlikely to guess that they are battling Shadow technology unless they are able to actually capture a
ruined hulk.
Drakh ships rely on bio-technology though they are not the true living ships of the Shadows and Vorlons. Drakh ships may be
entered normally and a visitor will see control panels, access ports and other features that would be familiar to anyone who has
spent time on spacecraft. However, the hull and fi tting of the ship would be unmistakably organic in nature, strange to the touch
and possessing a limited regenerative capability. Bio-electric reactor-equivalents provide all the power these ships need for their
powerful weapons, fast speed and high technological equipment. Chief among these are the gravitic energy grids found on all but
the smallest Drakh craft.
Eschewing or unable to replicate the organic self-repair systems of the Shadow ships, most Drakh vessels instead harness the
awesome output of their bio-reactors to construct a powerful energy fi eld around their hulls. This screen is powerful enough
to defl ect any weak attack and only continued salvoes have a chance of overwhelming this advanced defensive mechanism. The
gravitic energy grid, far superior to the shields of the Abbai, can be fi tted to even small scouts, often forcing an enemy to deploy
his big guns against small ships in order to guarantee a kill.
The weaponry of Drakh ships revolve around very simple concepts and only two separate offensive systems have so far been
identifi ed. Though the Drakh possess an organic weapon that is similar in many respects to the pulse cannon of Earth and other
races, their favoured attack is conducted with the heavy neutron cannon.

Basically Shadows with a bit lesser Tech Equal to Minbarri

Ok now The explanation. It seems to me that alot of you all think that all fleets are supposed to be viable and equal. The CANON FLUFF as Designed and written by JMS shows its clearly not. That is why it is Reflected in teh Game. They arent supposed to be equal. The ISA And Minbarri and later years narn Centuari and EA are supposed to be better than the rest . A COMBINED League FLeet can go toe to toe with the best but a single fleet has its drawbacks. This is part of Teh B5 Universe. It was written this way originally and they have stayed true to teh cannon universe. I didnt go into shadows or Vorlons because they are Just One step Below ancients and again are really designed for scanerios and to battle each other. The Boresight Init sink and all the other rules are based on teh cannon and the tactics and how Races would fight or how they were demonstarted to fight. Now If you all disagree thats fine and I would love to hear points and counter points to teh argument in a RESPECTFUL MANNER. Not FU or My Point is better than yours.
 
Okay,

One, most of the fluff you have pointed too was not written by JMS, it's mongooses fluff. JMS did support the original AoG fluff, but had enough disagreements with Mongoose that he withdrew support of the mongoose backed novels.

Two, much of the fluff text does not equate with the experience of players. In previous threads on these boards numerous folks have commented on the disparity of fluff and stats.

Three, fluff and canon are great guides to building ships and fleets, but are a poor system for balancing scenarios. Mongoose acknowledges this by putting ships at different values depending on their capabilities, not role in their home fleet.

The Sharlin and the Hyperion were attempting to fill similar roles in their respective fleets at the time of the EA/Minbari war... it just so happens that a Sharlin was easily the match of any four Hyperions. Where we have disagreements is on how closely the value of the ship is reflected in its cost (and or VPs where this varies from cost).

Four, Mongoose specifically stated that the league fleets were intended to be able to operate on their own. To show this was not some oversight, they have also specifically talked about the raiders being sup-par on purpose (the link to the interview was on the boards for some time), if that was intended for the individual league fleets why not mention them as well. This goes to show that any disparity in league abilities is not an intentional design element, but a result of the many plates being juggled at once.

Fifth, you skipped the Vorlons and Shadows (and the other first ones), but I do not believe they are designed or intended for only special purpose play. They are laid out as fleets you can take with theoretically accurate point values for fighting the other races. Look to Matt's posts in the shadow fighter thread to see evidence of that outlook.

I could search for all the various posts related to the above, but the list of links would be at least as long as this post, and a number might have vanished in the wipe last fall. But I am sure other posters can point to specific examples if you believe I am lying.

There was an extensive discussion of canon vs game balance last fall. One of the most basic points from that discussion is that the EA Early fleet should not be able to fire on the Minbari at all, which would simply be no fun. So there are other considerations that fluff and canon, what weight you put on them is up to you.

You invoked JMS, which is a risky proposition, as he said himself that the AoG folks knew more about the fleets of his world than he did, and we should consider their books canon. By that reasoning, Mongoose has broken with the fluff extensively... examples are the sunhawk being smaller than the warbird, the opposite of the pre-established canon, and the darkhawk being based off the sunhawk rather than the warbird, which goes against the canon episode from the show.

I hope that meets your criteria...

Ripple
 
Ripple said:
There was an extensive discussion of canon vs game balance last fall. One of the most basic points from that discussion is that the EA Early fleet should not be able to fire on the Minbari at all, which would simply be no fun. So there are other considerations that fluff and canon, what weight you put on them is up to you.

Simply leave out the Oracle and the Explorer (I assume Earth didn't have many Battle Scouts at that time) and you almost have that effect.

Btw, didn't this turn used to be about the BORESIGHT/Inisink problem and not about the balance of fleet lists?
 
I have not played many games with the new rules but I believe I understand them well enough to comment.
I dont have a problem with boresight ships & also agree some fleets should be able to fight better against certain other fleets.
I think the FAP buy down values are the real cause of the problem. Some fleets are really designed to be swarm fleets others are not but the current buy down system allows fleets to become swarm fleets that shouldnt be.
This may be a game but if you want to look at it from a realistic point of view then all ships would be moving at the same time. The advantage of a swarm fleet would be the ability to engage a ship from multiple angles denying the boresighted ship from firing on too many ships at once (yes I know multiple arcs of fire). In ACTA we cant represent the real world prespective unless you go to blind movement so we have the initiative rule to try to balance this out. Unfortunately swarm fleets prevent boresighted ships from targeting good targets as they can be left to last or at least till after the boresighted ship has moved - This would not be possible in real world terms as both the boresight ship & the good target move at the same time.
I think the special action suggested is an easy fix for what I believe to be a simple problem - very little paperwork & still limiting the boresight ship within its normal movement - I also dont believe it would give any boresight ship an unfair advantage for same reason - Real world the boresight ship if it could target the good target it would maneauver to its ability to turn to hold its target lock - if the good target was able to move faster than the boresight ship could turn breaking its target lock then this works in ACTA too.
I personally would like to see the buy down reduced a bit but I think the SA alone would fix alot of peoples problems with targeting with boresights against swarm style fleets

Hope this argument was both easy to understand & civil & makes its point
 
Galatea said:
Ripple said:
There was an extensive discussion of canon vs game balance last fall. One of the most basic points from that discussion is that the EA Early fleet should not be able to fire on the Minbari at all, which would simply be no fun. So there are other considerations that fluff and canon, what weight you put on them is up to you.

Simply leave out the Oracle and the Explorer (I assume Earth didn't have many Battle Scouts at that time) and you almost have that effect.

Btw, didn't this turn used to be about the BORESIGHT/Inisink problem and not about the balance of fleet lists?

Well I figured that Most People would be able to extrapolate the boresight and initiative from things like The drazi always keep thier enemies in front of them, and so and so is lesser technologically advantaged etc etc. I guess not. Maybe its because im arrogant (A ripple Quote), maybe its because my brain works differently and draws different conclusions. The Extrapolation I made was that people didntlike the boresight and initiative rules were unbalanced and unfair to those fleets who didnt have the forward arc heavy weapons and who couldnt bring them to bear.
 
Ripple said:
Okay,

One, most of the fluff you have pointed too was not written by JMS, it's mongooses fluff. JMS did support the original AoG fluff, but had enough disagreements with Mongoose that he withdrew support of the mongoose backed novels.

Would Love to see Where this happened.

Two, much of the fluff text does not equate with the experience of players. In previous threads on these boards numerous folks have commented on the disparity of fluff and stats.

Three, fluff and canon are great guides to building ships and fleets, but are a poor system for balancing scenarios. Mongoose acknowledges this by putting ships at different values depending on their capabilities, not role in their home fleet.

If This is what the world is based on, then this is the world we should play in Design your own secnario if you dont like teh ones available.

The Sharlin and the Hyperion were attempting to fill similar roles in their respective fleets at the time of the EA/Minbari war... it just so happens that a Sharlin was easily the match of any four Hyperions. Where we have disagreements is on how closely the value of the ship is reflected in its cost (and or VPs where this varies from cost).

Four, Mongoose specifically stated that the league fleets were intended to be able to operate on their own. To show this was not some oversight, they have also specifically talked about the raiders being sup-par on purpose (the link to the interview was on the boards for some time), if that was intended for the individual league fleets why not mention them as well. This goes to show that any disparity in league abilities is not an intentional design element, but a result of the many plates being juggled at once.

Fifth, you skipped the Vorlons and Shadows (and the other first ones), but I do not believe they are designed or intended for only special purpose play. They are laid out as fleets you can take with theoretically accurate point values for fighting the other races. Look to Matt's posts in the shadow fighter thread to see evidence of that outlook.

I said I didnt Put in The shadows or The Vorlons However i did adress the ancients You probably missed It Look before the Drakh Part. I know there is a lot there easy to miss. It specifically says in Teh Book, These are designed to be a special insnace and that theses are deilberately overbalanced I again direct you to the Quote in the above post.

I could search for all the various posts related to the above, but the list of links would be at least as long as this post, and a number might have vanished in the wipe last fall. But I am sure other posters can point to specific examples if you believe I am lying.

There was an extensive discussion of canon vs game balance last fall. One of the most basic points from that discussion is that the EA Early fleet should not be able to fire on the Minbari at all, which would simply be no fun. So there are other considerations that fluff and canon, what weight you put on them is up to you.

You invoked JMS, which is a risky proposition, as he said himself that the AoG folks knew more about the fleets of his world than he did, and we should consider their books canon. By that reasoning, Mongoose has broken with the fluff extensively... examples are the sunhawk being smaller than the warbird, the opposite of the pre-established canon, and the darkhawk being based off the sunhawk rather than the warbird, which goes against the canon episode from the show.

Im going to have deviate from My original argument and get away from JMS Here (Still want to see where he decided to back away from Mongoose) But If Mongoose Bought the game Then its thier Cannon fluff then. They get to rewrite the Book.

I hope that meets your criteria...

Ripple
 
ShopKeepJon said:
An important thing to remember in all of this is that rules do get changed. Mongoose is planning to put out a book every year for ACTA. If you think that those books can't or won't contain any changes to the rules, you should go back and look at the history of this game.

Mongoose is willing to change rules for the benefit of their games. A more recent example is the new book for Victory at Sea. The rules for aircraft are completely new.

What I'm saying is, these discussions are not just academic. If a rule can be shown to be flawed or a better implementation demonstrated, Mongoose has shown that they are willing to be flexible (well... somewhat flexible anyway...).

ShopKeepJon

FTR, the aircraft rules are an additional level of detail (just looked it up), but I do get your point and there are other additions, clarifications, etc. that support what you say. This is common to the gaming industry; I was involved in some similar changes in Flames of War with aircraft, friendly fire, etc.

At the same time, I also know that game companies don't make changes without good reason; as you point out, they're "somewhat flexible". Many of the changes in the OOB volume exist as clarifications or additions rather than outright substitutions. At least one looks like a cut-and-paste error between ACtA and VaS. (Not sure how a ship moving at 25 knots can all of a sudden go 37.5 kts what with the water resistance and all)

Mongoose may well change several ACtA rules between now and the publication of the next volume, but there's an assumption here (not necessarily your assumption) that because griping takes place, because some see a problem, the rule can and should be replaced.
 
Actually if they bought a license, they usually have some restrictions on how much they can re-write, additions usually have less restrictions. I will go back to an example I made months ago, if Mongoose decided to say the Omega was a small patrol ship, would you be as comfortable with the statement 'it's there game they get to re-write what they want.'

Can someone with better search fu find the discussion on JMS vs Mongoose on the novels? It was somewhere just before second edition came out...

I am not sure I understand your comments on designing your own scenarios. My comment was mongoose doesn't say your high tech ship (which should kick my but) will cost the same in game balance units as my low tech ship. That is how the tech imbalance is handled in the game. The scenarios they have written support using game balance units (called FAP) to select fleets, not fluff balance units where a lone hyperion encounters a sharlin and the high tech race slaughters the low tech.

By your own logic, the scenarios where there is balance, are breaking fluff, and YOU should be the one unhappy with Mongoose and running off to create new scenarios.

Back to bore sight and initiative...

Again, renew my feelings that the SA 'follow that ship' covers all the issues with bore sight, but want to acknowledge the folks who are saying fire on something else. In larger games this is rarely problematic, or if facing aggressive players who want to get in and fight. But cagey or desperate players find ways to hide the necessary amount of sinks in smaller games or games getting near the end which have usually become small games.

You can certainly win a battle with five hyperions in a 5 raid game, allowing for your opponents fleet, style and dice. My question is should you expect to have a 50/50 run vs an evenly skilled opponent who has not built to help you out.

Ripple
 
was cross posting with wkehrman

There is no assumption based on griping or perspective that a rule 'should' be changed. That is a perception of yours... what folks have done generally is outlined something they see as a problem, and advocated a solution. Whether that solution should or should not be used is not discussed primarily, but rather whether the problem outlined exists, and if it does, which solution would be best.

If you agree that there is a problem, finding a solution is the next logical step. Note you second point, you see a problem of suspension of disbelief (how is that ship dealing with water resistance like that) and attempt to explain it as an error on Mongooses part. Perhaps hoping Mongoose will look at the issue, and perhaps correct it.

If it turns out that Mongoose doesn't acknowledge it as a cut and paste error but something that works for them, won't you still have the initial problem of suspension of disbelief?

Ripple
 
Ripple said:
was cross posting with wkehrman

There is no assumption based on griping or perspective that a rule 'should' be changed. That is a perception of yours... what folks have done generally is outlined something they see as a problem, and advocated a solution. Whether that solution should or should not be used is not discussed primarily, but rather whether the problem outlined exists, and if it does, which solution would be best.

Yes there is an assumption here. It is that the rule is broken and that because the rule is broken, Mongoose must change it by adding a whole new special action which does not solve the problem.

As I understand your description of Follow That Ship, you save your last turn for the end of the movement. The ship itself is done moving. If you save some of the movement as well, then you have additional record keeping (did you leave 2 or 4 inches of movement?). It seems to favor ships that have larger turning arcs, but I'd have to look at it a little more to see if that is a big enough deal,i.e., does it amplify an advantage or not. It says nothing about committing to a direction. I'm going to assume that you must continue following the original target and that you must make a turn. Otherwise you are using a special action to circumvent the initiative system. This is going to cause some trouble with players. How does it address other targets? Can I still fire at other ships or am I focusing all of my efforts on the target ship. Some boresight equipped ships (EA, Narn) have multiple systems Fore and Aft. Can a Ka'Toc fire its Mag Gun at a different target?

Now you are following a particular ship, as soon as the designated attacking ship stops moving, but before it executes its last turn, the defending ship gets to move. As defender, I can now look at several questions. How far can the attacker turn? What is the range of his boresighted weapons? What other ships can I bring to bear to cause the attacking ship grief? The Ka'Toc mentioned above gets one 45 deg turn. How can I maneuver to avoid his turn, i.e., how can I maneuver to keep my ship at 46 degrees. Too many factors (distance, damage, defending ship specs) contribute to answer the question of maneuver simply. Maybe it's enough to move in a straight line, maybe I need to counter your special action with my own (Come About, All Stop, etc.).

Assuming there is a problem, how does this fix it?

If you agree that there is a problem, finding a solution is the next logical step. Note you second point, you see a problem of suspension of disbelief (how is that ship dealing with water resistance like that) and attempt to explain it as an error on Mongooses part. Perhaps hoping Mongoose will look at the issue, and perhaps correct it.

If it turns out that Mongoose doesn't acknowledge it as a cut and paste error but something that works for them, won't you still have the initial problem of suspension of disbelief?

Ripple

Wow, you really latched on to that side comment, didn't you. I put it in parentheses for a reason. You are assuming a great many things not the least of which that I was concerned about movement in VaS. I just happened to notice that the Flank Speed rule looked suspiciously like All Power to Engines and I made a comment. Since there is no discussion of scale in VaS, other than what size ships to use, movement could be abstracted. Matt could have stated that his movement numbers were derived from some percentage of Full Speed, thus a shift to Flank Speed, which actually exceeds Full Speed, necessitated a huge jump in movement. Chalk it up to the imprecision of a simple game mechanic. If someone complained in a public forum, I would ask for a clear explanation of what they think is wrong, and, if I saw a problem with their logic, I would point it out. In this SPECIFIC case, that argument would not have occurred.

Ripple said:
He has (along with Dag'karlove) in essence called me an incompetent player, poor fleet constructor and lazy in the face of a challenge.

Not true. I subjected your comments about the RAW to criticism and continued arguing the point when I found the responses unsatisfactory. I stated early on that whether I am the one complaining or I am simply responding to a complaint I have an expectation that these complaints have legitimacy. Since I don't know what kind of gamer you are I can only operate on the premise that, like the vast majority of gamers, you have habits of mind and action that are both difficult to break and damaging to your win loss record. You are not incompetent or lazy but neither will I accept you are John Sheridan incarnate. You may not have found a solution to the problem because you were used to looking in one particular direction and had not looked in other directions.
 
Ripple said:
If it wasn't an issue you would not see ship limits at tourney's.

Let's see at five raid points I can take 20 patrol points. That's 40 Tethys, or 40 Sho'Kovs, or 40 Sho'Kos, or 40 Havens.

How long is it going to take to complete one turn if I do not create squadrons?

A better question, do you really want to play a game against someone who has 40 Tethys?

I would suspect that someone sat down and figured out that x number of ships was a good size for an event with time limits while x+1 or +2 or +20 would take too long.
 
Ok, I seem to sit a bit in the middle of this argument. I see both sides and think that "the problem" is just an inherent issue of any turn based game. Now, we can solve this by finding a middle ground and the "follow that ship" idea presented earlier seems to alleviate the complaints for the Drazi proponents, yet does not give them a great advantage.

So, here is a thought. I was noticing the "concentrate firepower" special action. The idea behind that special action is that the ship puts all their attention on a specific target. Isn't that what the previous follow that ship idea is supposed to do as well?

My thought is that bore-sight ships (specifically, but I don't have a problem otherwise) should be allowed to track an enemy if they specifically give up one of their turns that activation. So, a white star is reduced to 1 turn at 90 degrees while moving, but if someone moves out of their forward arc, they can choose to track the target by getting back their last 90 degree turn. Likewise, a Drazi sunbird would get 1 turn at 45 degrees and if their target should move away, they get their last 45 degree turn to stay on target. Obviously lumbering ships like an Omega should not get to turn at all, and if their opponent should move out of the way, then it gets to make their only turn. Great! Now, if you are trying to follow that ship, are you not concentrating your firepower on that target? So, perhaps the solution is to expand this rarely used special action (at least in my experience).
 
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