State of the Mongoose 2025

[Sigtrygg]

I hate Explainaboutery! To me it is a sign of either a poor writer or a lazy writer. If you can't keep your writing internally consistent, don't be a writer. If you are publishing books and you can't keep your writers' products internally consistent, then don't be a publisher.

Charted Space is not internally consistent, especially with the rules that are meant to describe the setting.

Nothing in Traveller drives me as crazy as the fluff not matching the rules, or conflicting rules.

It has always been the way, ever since GDW started writing an OTU that didn't always follow the rules they had written.

Edit - To me it is like going to a car repair shop to get the interior recovered and they use different materials that don't match. Then, they try and gaslight you into believing that it was an artistic choice made on purpose and not just being a lazy or crappy mechanic. That is how I feel about Explainaboutery.

My personal version of the Spinward Marches, and the Imperium, is different to the published version, it is internally consistent for one thing. My solutions to the contradictions are unlikely to be something anyone else would want in their setting, but then I doubt very much if any two referee's have settings that are not incompatible in some way.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I am not even talking about adventures, but you are correct. I was just talking about how you'd have to scrap the entire setting as none of the history works with this change in travel speed.

The setting is just there to hang the adventures and exploits of the PCs, it is not a useful setting if you need a different PC group for each adventure because they are scattered all over charted space.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The fourth frontier war has been mentioned... it has been retconned more than once.

One of the pivotal events as originally described had to be removed because the setting no longer supported it.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The history of charted space has already changed many times, and current technologies within the game should change it even more.

It is if Mongoose says it is.

Just like the Gulf of America, right?

<deep sigh>

Reality is messy. If you're not comfortable with the way things should be versusthe way they actually are, then sure, life must be pretty annoying and I understand. In my work, this is why we have SLA (Service Level Agreements) and Warranties and why sometimes what people promise isn't what is delivered. this is my life: being disappointed with humans.

When you are writing a fictional world, you are not in the world, you are outside of it looking in.

Also...history is never 100% true. there could be other reasons why the 4th Frontier War was not addressed by Capitol even if travel was instantaneous. (and I disagree with the assessment either way)

It is not history, it is fiction. If there are other reasons, then these should be detailed in the books. Otherwise, why have an OTU if there is no objective OOU (out-of-universe) facts?

(this is one thing that pisses me off with people not being happy with fictional Canon, particularly in Twilight 2000, because Canon doesn't exist inside the game world. There is always point of view. Any situation is going to be described by one side or the other and neither will be truthful. That's just journalism never mind actual deliberate denial of facts. If I decide I want instantanous travel in my third Imperium campaign, I'll put it in there and damn anyone who comes to me with a whine about the 4th Frontier War. If I was inclined I could rationalise the shit out of it, but I'd be more inclined to say "Yeahshuddup, there were reasons*" because it's not game-breaking. It really isn't.

I do not exist inside of the game world. I exist outside of it. What people believe in the game world is flavor text. It does not tell what actually happened. Setting material should be specific about what is an in-universe believe versus what actually happened.

If your game is broken by the 4th Frontier War outcome being different in your head, then I would humbly submit that you're probably focusing on the wrong thing.**



We can agree to disagree. Have a nice weekend.

*maybe the Domain of Deneb forces (ships, people) weren't ready. Maybe they didn't respond quicker because there was some other bullshit going on within their own ranks. Maybe the Zhos gain an advantage quicker. Who cares.

**this reminds me of the ailing community having such wrath over the movie "All Is Lost". People who thought they were great sailors were annoyed because the protagonist made stupid decisions. They missed the point of the movie. He made bad decisions because he was an idiot, filled with hubris and lazy to the point of almost death. In reality, people make mistakes, they underestimate or overestimate. History will be written anyway and it's not worth losing sleep over.

Again, you seem to not understand the difference between in-game and out-of-game. They are two diametrically opposed viewpoints. Settings are written by authors in real life. In-game histories are written by people in the game world who do not actually exist in real life. These are not the same things.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The setting is just there to hang the adventures and exploits of the PCs, it is not a useful setting if you need a different PC group for each adventure because they are scattered all over charted space.

I have run campaigns in only one subsector and the game lasted years of real time. If the Referee scatters things all over Charted Space and makes that an issue, sounds like he is not doing a very good job of creating fun for his players. I change the locations for adventures all of the time. I never use adventures as written. I use them as background material in sandbox campaigns. I also use stories from other universes such as Star Trek, Star Wars, Killjoys, Firefly, and tons of others. The setting needs to be internally consistent. Published adventures can be put anywhere as long as the adventure is built using the same premise as the setting, i.e. jump drives, no FTL communications, etc.

Settings are like mannequins. They provide the frame for your adventures. Adventures are like the clothing you put on the mannequin. You can't put a shoe on the head, but you can use the material that the shoe is made from and turn it into a hat. Many different pieces of clothing are possible all using the same mannequin as the form.

 

[MasterGwydion]

My personal version of the Spinward Marches, and the Imperium, is different to the published version, it is internally consistent for one thing. My solutions to the contradictions are unlikely to be something anyone else would want in their setting, but then I doubt very much if any two referee's have settings that are not incompatible in some way.

All of our IMTU are going to be different from the published material. Always, (gods know that MTU is nothing like the books. lol) but the published material should always be internally consistent.

 

[lategamer]

Again, you seem to not understand the difference between in-game and out-of-game. They are two diametrically opposed viewpoints. Settings are written by authors in real life. In-game histories are written by people in the game world who do not actually exist in real life. These are not the same things.

Ugh. Try to not do that ok. Firstly I’m well aware this is fiction. Real world history is written by humans just as fictional history is written by humans. Both sets of humans are writing it from a point of view so … somehow you’re putting higher standards of accuracy on non-real history. Yeah. Good luck with that.

I can give you ten reasons why me changing the speed of transport would not have changed the outcome of rhe 4th frontier war. Just as you found probably give me 10 reasons why it would have.

Either way it doesn’t matter because I don’t care. If I want to change the speed of travel in jump, I will. If I wanted to add a in-jump travel phase, I would. And it would only matter in the unlikely event I became a somewhat-passive aggressive lead writer for traveller (a position I would both be unqualified for and would never covet).

But let’s not pretend that our make believe worlds are more immutable than our real ones. Because that’s hilarious.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Do those exist in the Third Imperium? Robots is a generic book, not everything in it is applicable to the Third Imperium, or are we moving to a "The Third Imperium has everything we write in it" model?
Anagathics and all their restrictions would not be needed in a Third Imperium with LEN...

I can only assume that they do because nanobots are a thing in Charted Space. See Neumann (Troj 3105)

Also, there is this from the Robot Handbook.

Look at the last line of the Strend Les Mecanismes Nanotech.

This seems to prove that Life Extension Nanobots exist in Charted Space.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Ugh. Try to not do that ok. Firstly I’m well aware this is fiction. Real world history is written by humans just as fictional history is written by humans. Both sets of humans are writing it from a point of view so … somehow you’re putting higher standards of accuracy on non-real history. Yeah. Good luck with that.

I can give you ten reasons why me changing the speed of transport would not have changed the outcome of rhe 4th frontier war. Just as you found probably give me 10 reasons why it would have.

Either way it doesn’t matter because I don’t care. If I want to change the speed of travel in jump, I will. If I wanted to add a in-jump travel phase, I would. And it would only matter in the unlikely event I became a somewhat-passive aggressive lead writer for traveller (a position I would both be unqualified for and would never covet).

But let’s not pretend that our make believe worlds are more immutable than our real ones. Because that’s hilarious.

How about you not pretend that YTU is the OTU? I have never said anything about people not being able to make changes at their tables. I sure as hell do. So, why does what you do at your table have any bearing on a conversation about internal consistency within a published setting. You are not playing that setting, none of us do. We all just use the OTU as our base and then make changes to that. The OTU should already be internally consistent. That way, when we have conversations about the OTU as opposed to our individual TUs, we have a common frame of reference. It also helps those who write campaigns and adventures to have an internally consistent setting to write for.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Just like the Gulf of America, right?

And the Ottoman Empire, the German Ocean... etc.

 

[lategamer]

How about you not pretend that YTU is the OTU?

I wasn’t the one who said that instantaneous travel would break the world. Nor did I say that myTU was OTU or YTU. You’re arguing with yourself there.

Maybe if you read what I wrote. If <emphasis> I </emphasis> implement instantaneous travel, firstly it doesn’t break shit and <heck, I even typed this out> it doesn’t affect anything unless I am somehow the lead writer. Which I am not. Or will ever be.

The only person who thinks that I’m trying to impose something on OTU is … you. Patently ridiculous position.

So why you’re getting butthurt about stuff I didn’t say, I do not know. But good luck with that.

And…. We can still have common frames of reference because Traveller is bigger than just jump-times. There’s more to it and yes, absolutely, I can find Explainaboutery reasons why THE history doesn’t change.

AND AGAIN, if you think it breaks the game. Well sad for you but I think I’m done on this line of nonsense.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I have run campaigns in only one subsector and the game lasted years of real time. If the Referee scatters things all over Charted Space and makes that an issue, sounds like he is not doing a very good job of creating fun for his players.

It is not the referee, it is the game authors.

I change the locations for adventures all of the time. I never use adventures as written. I use them as background material in sandbox campaigns. I also use stories from other universes such as Star Trek, Star Wars, Killjoys, Firefly, and tons of others. The setting needs to be internally consistent. Published adventures can be put anywhere as long as the adventure is built using the same premise as the setting, i.e. jump drives, no FTL communications, etc.

Then you have no need for charted space as a setting, neither do I.

 

[Terry Mixon]

If aging is an issue, just Low Berth them. Very cheap way to travel, and safe in a top of the line Mix Corp series of Low Berths.

Or their new FastBerths. It’s like almost no time has passed at all and they are awake for each jump.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I can only assume that they do because nanobots are a thing in Charted Space. See Neumann (Troj 3105)

Also, there is this from the Robot Handbook.
View attachment 6674
Look at the last line of the Strend Les Mecanismes Nanotech.
View attachment 6675
This seems to prove that Life Extension Nanobots exist in Charted Space.

Which mean this technology makes anagathics a waste of resources, they would not exist within the setting. The Robots book changes the setting from what it was to what it is now.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I wasn’t the one who said that instantaneous travel would break the world. Nor did I say that myTU was OTU or YTU. You’re arguing with yourself there.

Maybe if you read what I wrote. If <emphasis> I </emphasis> implement instantaneous travel, firstly it doesn’t break shit and <heck, I even typed this out> it doesn’t affect anything unless I am somehow the lead writer. Which I am not. Or will ever be.

You used what you do at your table as a rebuttal to what I said about the OTU. So, how does this have anything to do with what We were discussing?

The only person who thinks that I’m trying to impose something on OTU is … you. Patently ridiculous position.

See the above statement.

So why you’re getting butthurt about stuff I didn’t say, I do not know. But good luck with that.

Again. Above statement.

And…. We can still have common frames of reference because Traveller is bigger than just jump-times. There’s more to it and yes, absolutely, I can find Explainaboutery reasons why THE history doesn’t change.

You can't have a common frame of reference if you don't have the same laws of physics. If you change humans to only be able to see black and white and not think that it would change the entire history of the human race, you are just crazy. That is how world-shattering changing the speed of jump in Charted Space would be.

AND AGAIN, if you think it breaks the game. Well sad for you but I think I’m done on this line of nonsense.

Of course, you think it is nonsense. Most of this conversation you have been using end-user logic on creator issues.

 

[lategamer]

That is how world-shattering changing the speed of jump in Charted Space would be

Good one. Do you do children’s parties?

Dial the drama down. And let’s change the subject, Nancy.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It is not the referee, it is the game authors.

Adventures have requirements to be run correctly. Basically though, what it comes down to is that you need a world roughly similar to what is described in the adventure. Then this can be translated to everywhere. Not an issue. Even adventures that are not setting agnostic aren't hard to work into other settings, provided the setting you put the adventure into doesn't negate the adventure's plausability.

Then you have no need for charted space as a setting, neither do I.

Seriously? Are you just trolling now? When have I ever said that I didn't love Charted Space?

 

[Terry Mixon]

All of this is fascinating, but maybe go start another thread about all of this?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Good one. Do you do children’s parties?

Dial the drama down. And let’s change the subject, Nancy.

I have been respectful and on point throughout this conversation. You have been snide, dismissive, and disrespectful.
So fuck you and your point of view. I no longer feel you have any intelligent opinions on anything.

Fuck off and have a nice day.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Adventures have requirements to be run correctly. Basically though, what it comes down to is that you need a world roughly similar to what is described in the adventure. Then this can be translated to everywhere. Not an issue. Even adventures that are not setting agnostic aren't hard to work into other settings, provided the setting you put the adventure into doesn't negate the adventure's plausability.

Seriously? Are you just trolling now? When have I ever said that I didn't love Charted Space?

You just said you don't use it at your table, but a homebrew mash up of a range of science fiction...
I am not saying you don't like the charted space setting, I like it too, but it has always had flaws.