Stat generation and improvement in Conan

[arcady]

Not to start hot topic or anything, but what do people think of the methods used in Conan for stat generation.

For me they seem to high and with too much acceleration.

I've always prefered point buy, at 28 points no less. If I use Conan, I'll probably continue this. This however is merely a personal taste issue. Boosting all stats is where I really break with the system logic.

The +1 to every stat every so many levels bothers me - it seems to break concept. I would have prefered a +1 limited to a number of stats. With it going into all stats my idea of the foolish hero, or the weak or slow hero will be shattered after a certain level - once the dumped stat is boosted too high.

On the other end, it provides a nice boost to handle higher power rangers, but I've played into high levels of DnD with few to no stat boosting items and a very tough DM so I'm suspicious of the need for this.

Is the idea of boosting all stats generally liked with me in a minority here?

 

[Anonymous]

Not to start hot topic or anything, but what do people think of the methods used in Conan for stat generation.

For me they seem to high and with too much acceleration.

I've always prefered point buy, at 28 points no less. If I use Conan, I'll probably continue this. This however is merely a personal taste issue. Boosting all stats is where I really break with the system logic.

On the other end, it provides a nice boost to handle higher power rangers, but I've played into high levels of DnD with few to no stat boosting items and a very tough DM so I'm suspicious of the need for this.

The +1 to every stat every so many levels bothers me - it seems to break concept. I would have prefered a +1 limited to a number of stats. With it going into all stats my idea of the foolish hero, or the weak or slow hero will be shattered after a certain level - once the dumped stat is boosted too high.

Is the idea of boosting all stats generally liked with me in a minority here?

I like the extra +1 across the board stat boosts, but I agree that it could shatter concepts like you mention. Hopefully, a fool, weakling or slowpoke would improve their Achilles' Heel over time, especially when their lives hang in the balance. I mean, how long would these people live otherwise in a setting as brutal as the Hyborian Age? With the heroic stat boosts at 6th level and beyond, the player can see his character really overcome his handicaps...

Not putting in age penalties/bonuses is unrealistic, but most characters will be dead or retired before then.

The new "heroic" stat generation I also like: 8 + 1d10. I dislike point buy. I want the *chance* to have universally decent stats (12-15) with two or three high ones (16-18 ). Rolling up stats is always exciting for me, whereas point buy is only frustrating number crunching.

Without stat boosting items or magic, the perceived game need for stat boosts is increased. There are few to no magic items, and the only real "treasure" the character ever has and can count on is his or her own abilities. Do we really *need* all these stat boosts though? It's certainly questionable, depending on your game. REH's Conan is about heroics in dark times against impossible odds. Your Hyborian Age game could be about more normal men and women under the same conditions, with grimmer and grittier results, perhaps even Lovecraftian. The need for stat boosts then would be reduced or removed. It's all about your campaign's flavor.

 

[VincentDarlage]

With it going into all stats my idea of the foolish hero, or the weak or slow hero will be shattered after a certain level - once the dumped stat is boosted too high.

I like the power up. Conan seemed to become smarter, wiser and better as he aged. Technically, the foolish hero would die young in the Hyborian Age, long before he got the power-up, if he continues to act foolish. The weak or slow hero would also die young, if he didn't learn to become stronger and faster. The Hyborian Age should cull the weak and foolish - either the hero adapts and overcomes, or he remains changeless and succumbs.

 

[VincentDarlage]

The new "heroic" stat generation I also like: 8 + 1d10. I dislike point buy. I want the *chance* to have universally decent stats (12-15) with two or three high ones (16-18 ). Rolling up stats is always exciting for me, whereas point buy is only frustrating number crunching.

I agree. I hate the point-buy system. Number crunching, 'let's keep everyone on the same level', politically correct stuff. Let the dice fall where they may.

I do like the new 'heroic' stat generation!

 

[rook111]

Not to start hot topic or anything, but what do people think of the methods used in Conan for stat generation.

The +1 to every stat every so many levels bothers me - it seems to break concept. I would have prefered a +1 limited to a number of stats. With it going into all stats my idea of the foolish hero, or the weak or slow hero will be shattered after a certain level - once the dumped stat is boosted too high.

Quite simply its a genre issue, Conan is Sword and Sorcery/Pulp, as such its concept of hero is narrow. In a Conan Story the Hero will never be Slow, weak, nor foolish, those characters would fall into the npc catagory. In a Conan story or any story from the Pulp era the Hero will always be larger than life, he will tower above the mere normals around him, He will stand out in any crowd. By nature He will be a superman, with all that that implies.

So with that in mind, the mechanics put in place in the Conan RPG, while greatly inhancing the character to a much higher degree than in D&D (which Conan is not), are well thought out and appropriate for the genre.

Of course what you do in you own games at home or elsewhere is perfectly alright as well.

 

[LWM]

Here's what I do (seriously): I let players pick whatever stats they want. That way they're guaranteed to get a character they want to play. Has this opportunity ever been abused? No. Most people actually don't feel comfortable doing it and fall back on one of the systems described in the PHB or the DMG.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I've used that system before. It has always worked well for me as well, although I don't think I used it since the advent of Third Edition.

 

[Ravager_of_Worlds]

when i run SW campaigns, I enforce the Point Buy system since I let the players create their characters on their own. I honestly can't trust them to roll- two players are naturally lucky and even when rolling in front of the GM, they get high stats. And I have 2 players that are phenomenally unlucky. I don't want dissension in the ranks, so everyone gets to show off how well they can plan their character.

For Conan though? The Heroic generation is great. Roll 6d10 and allocate as needed. With SW, technology makes up for average stats. In Conan, technology has little bearing and attributes play more of a factor in simple character survival. Considering how brutal Conan OGL is, I have no problem with players rolling their characters in front of me. Frankly, it won't make much difference between the lucky and unlucky.

 

[arcady]

My reasons on the preference for point buy are here. If Conan has a higher point of balance than d20, I would just give more points.

I find giving +1 to all stats over the levels 'forces' an acceleration in characters that may not be desired for a given character. The concept of the character is vital, and forcing it to be violated as the character levels is just disruptive to good roleplay. Even in a character without any dump stats, there's no reason for an across the board stat boost unless there's a reason for an across the board stat boost. If the events of the game dictate it, let it be so. But if they don't it should not be so.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Of course, that is what house rules are for.

I don't see the point in giving players complete control over their character. Often my players (and me as well, when I roll up some NPC's) don't have a character idea in mind until the dice come up and that gives inspiration. Other times, I give them true control, and let them just pick their stats.

I also don't believe in 'assured fairness'. That doesn't work in life and shouldn't necessarily work in an RPG.

As a GM, I can assess a proper challenge for my players regardless of their stats. I've been GMing for 22 years, since AD&D (1st edition as it is now called), and we didn't have nifty things like CRs to mathematically make sure everything is fair. (I tend to ignore CRs anyway. Glad Conan doesn't have any.)

I also don't need to know how characters relate to the rest of the RPG. I know how they relate to my games and how I run them.

That is why I don't prefer point buy. My players and I do not need the enforced fairness that sugercoats some games.

If a player doesn't want his character to grow and change as he becomes more powerful, then he shouldn't be forced to take the +1 ability bonus. Likewise players don't need to move up levels, take skill points or anything else offered to him as he gains XP.

 

[arcady]

If a player doesn't want his character to grow and change as he becomes more powerful, then he shouldn't be forced to take the +1 ability bonus. Likewise players don't need to move up levels, take skill points or anything else offered to him as he gains XP.

That's a false argument that lacks logic. It's a straw man. Such an option does not exist for a player, and if a DM makes it an option it's hardly a viable choice in a game where there is no counter compensataion to balance it out.

The rest of your comments merely attack logic with the 'well I don't like it' stance - which again fails to break down any of the logic. That said I'll make any responses to the defense of point buy in the other thread rather than here.

Here I just wanted to feel out opinions on the +1 across all stats on leveling.

 

[MightyCthulhu]

Here I just wanted to feel out opinions on the +1 across all stats on leveling.

:!: I like it! Consider me "felt-out."

 

[Ian Sturrock]

Bear in mind that in D&D as written, characters have a stack of chances to increase ability scores at higher levels -- magic tomes and Wish spells for permanent increases, assorted gizmos that give bonuses while worn, buff spells. None of these are available to Conan characters.

Conan himself shows a clear improvement in most or all of his ability scores (in d20 terms) as he goes from teenage thief to ruler of the most powerful nation in the world, to the extent that he would be superhuman in most game stats. Setups in which one has a free choice as to which ability score to increase (as in D&D) just lead to weirdly lopsided characters (e.g. the barbarian who has added +12 to his Str, but nothing to any other stats).

 

[VincentDarlage]

That's a false argument that lacks logic. The rest of your comments merely attack logic with the 'well I don't like it' stance - which again fails to break down any of the logic. That said I'll make any responses to the defense of point buy in the other thread rather than here.

Where was the rule stating I have to argue logically?

Besides, it isn't an 'I don't like it' argument. Its an 'I don't need it to run a game that is fun' argument. If I needed it, I would use it, regardless of liking it or disliking it. I simply don't need that sort of artifice to GM a fun game.

My arguments were not intended to be a cold treatise on why a rule should not be used by anyone. It was a statement on why I, and I alone, don't need a 'point-buy' system for my games. Tastes are rarely, if ever, based on logic.

Running a fun game isn't a matter of logic and mathematical precision. So I am proud of my illogical argument in favour of a fun game that discards useless (to me) artifices and procedures such as the cold, precise and uninspiring 'point-buy' number-crunch system.

I prefer to run my games on a visceral level from the heart and soul, not from an artificial, logical level. If it feels right, I do it, and the rules be damned. I am not a rules-lawyer or number cruncher. I believe it was Mr. Spock who once said, 'Logic is little tweeting bird chirping in meadow. Logic is wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad.'

You shouldn't feel the need to 'defend' your tastes, either. If you like or need a 'point-buy' system, great! Use it. Why defend the choice? Since tastes aren't logical, then there is no right or wrong.

I fully support, endorse and adore the +1 to all stats improvements to the characters for all the reasons Ian Sturrock mentioned and for any other reasons I can think of, such as fish.

 

[Anonymous]

That's a false argument that lacks logic. The rest of your comments merely attack logic with the 'well I don't like it' stance - which again fails to break down any of the logic. That said I'll make any responses to the defense of point buy in the other thread rather than here.

Where was the rule stating I have to argue logically?

I fully support, endorse and adore the +1 to all stats improvements to the characters for all the reasons Ian Sturrock mentioned and for any other reasons I can think of, such as fish.

Watch out Vincent, she bites! :twisted:

 

[LWM]

I also don't believe in 'assured fairness'. That doesn't work in life and shouldn't necessarily work in an RPG.

I'm a big beliver in this also. The programmed approach to awarding XP and treasure from encounters that have the exact CR to only deplete a small fraction of a group's resources that was pushed on unsuspecting DMs starting in the 3E books may not actually be evil, but it's definitely bad.

And if you combine the programmed approach with the arbitrary ability to pick up skills, feats and classes as characters progress, independent of any reasonable justification for learning the new abilities, you might as well just not even play the game. Why not just update a spreadsheet on a weekly basis, of check a web page to see how your character is progressing? Why waste time actually playing the game?

I'm going to end up running a Conan game some day. I'll probably wait until a few more books are out before giving it a shot, but I can guarantee that life will not be fair for anyone.

As a GM, I can assess a proper challenge for my players regardless of their stats. I've been GMing for 22 years, since AD&D (1st edition as it is now called), and we didn't have nifty things like CRs to mathematically make sure everything is fair. (I tend to ignore CRs anyway. Glad Conan doesn't have any.)

As one who's been at it for 28 years, I will try not to hold your youth and inexperience against you.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I'm a big beliver in this also. The programmed approach to awarding XP and treasure from encounters that have the exact CR to only deplete a small fraction of a group's resources that was pushed on unsuspecting DMs starting in the 3E books may not actually be evil, but it's definitely bad.

Yeah, I actually used that darn table a couple of times, and most of the times the occasion was a DISASTER. I much prefer winging it and arbitrarily deciding what the encounter was worth. I am glad Conan went this route.

As one who's been at it for 28 years, I will try not to hold your youth and inexperience against you.

Wow! I am glad to meet your online aquaintance!

 

[Mythos]

I think that aloowing across the board and single addition incress to stats helps to reflect the style and tone of the source material. in addition it helps to enhance roleplaying in the players.
One of my players ended up with a 9 in intellegence. As he is playing an Asier, he decided that his character is new to the Hyborian kingdoms and a little naive to the ways of civilized folk. He plans on putting the first stat incress into his intel. Untill he gets that he's asked that I add a couple of moments where his character is taken advantage of, by merchants, whores, and others. By asking for these he has given me a couple of concepts for adventure starters.
Given the type of world Howard created, the characters need to grow in ability and knowledge or they do not last long.