Starship combat

[Yvan]

Hi

I have some questions about starship combat.
First, i appologize for my rough english but it isn’t my mother tongue.
I'have done a quick search in the forum but i didn't find any answer to my questions.

It’s say that a turret can only be fired once a turn. So if a gunner in the ship A with a triple turret (sand caster/beam laser/particle beam) fire at ship B with the particle beam can the gunner react and fire the sand caster to counter a beam laser or fire the beam laser at an incomming missile ?

It’s say « a gunner may keep making Gunner checks against missiles until he misses
an attack ». But does the gunner need ready weapon (a weapon which did’nt fire this turn yet) to do this ? And if successfull does he use the same weapon or does he need another ready weapon to keep firing?

Witch skill must be used to fire a weapon who are in a fixed mount, gunner turret or pilot as the weapon cannot be aimed until pointing the entire ship?

With the high guard modification the pulser laser range modifier is :
A -3 C -3 S -2 M -3 L -4 VL -5 D – right ?

If it’s a variable range pulse laser, is it :
A -3 C -2 S -2 M -2 L -3 VL -4 D -5 or
A -3 C -2 S -2 M -2 L -4 VL -5 D -- ?

 

[Captain Jonah]

Hello there.

Complex question so the answer will be a bit long

Order of Events:

3. Combat Phase
a. In order of Initiative, ships can take actions.
b. Actions include: firing energy weapons, launching missiles,
boarding actions.
c. Reactions include: dodging, point defence, firing sand.
d. Actions are resolved.

Firstly the Pbeam in the turret. Fired as a Beam weapon. This can be fired once in the turn and the gunner will pick the target and roll to hit. If the turret had two Pbeams both would be fired at this stage and could not fire again. Where it says turret it should refer to weapons firing once only as it could be confusing in the case of mixed weapons. Direct fire happens at stage B and all beam fire must be declared in stage B.

Secondly the defensive fire. This happens at stage C, Reactions. See page 149. For this I will presume the ship has two avilable reactions as the pilot used the rest to dodge or do things unrelated to this.

The ships sensors report lasers hits on the hull, a hostile ship has fired its triple lasers turrets and hit with 4 beams. The gunner makes his roll and uses his sandcaster to put a sand cloud in front of the beams reducing each by 1D. This costs a Reaction.

Then a small salvo of missiles tagets the ship and using the last and final reaction the gunner fires at them with the laser. 4 missiles, the gunner fires at the first and rolls to hit/destroy it, he then rolls against each of the others taking a cumalative penalty of -1 for each aditional missile. Once he has fired and the missiles are hit or destroyed the ship is out of reactions and the gunner is out of ready weapons.

At this point the gunner has fired all three of his weapons and is out of reactions. If the ship had a second turret with another sandcaster and laser it could fire these as reactions under the control of the same or another gunner.

The second sandcaster could be used against the laser fire from a second enemy or optionaly to thicken the sand cloud against the first ship (adding say +1 to the 1D roll).

The second laser could be use to engage more missiles. Say for example the gunner has two lasers on point defence and is attacked by 8 missiles. He could declare firing each laser against 4 missiles and roll the two weapons each firing upto 4 times with the -1 penalty for each extra missile as normal. If he had three lasers he could fire two of them at three missiles each and the third at two missiles etc.

For your second question about the variable range Pulse laser is the second one. The variable range modifier gives the Pulse laser an optimum range of close, short and medium.

Now here it is a little fuzzy.

A pulse laser suffers a -1 per range band outside of optimum so its basic chart is A-3 C-3 S -2 M-3 L-4 VL-5 D--. With the variable range effect its optimum range becomes Close to medium So it is A-3 C-2 S-2 M-2. At this point the rules are unclear as to Long and very long.

If the chart is used as is the should be L-4 and VL-5. However since the Pulse laser has optimum range at Medium and suffers -1 per range band outside of Optimum range it could also have L-3 and VL-4.

So going strictly by the chart it would be A-3 C-2 S-2 M-2 L-4 VL-5, optionaly allowing for decreasing accuracy of -1 per band outside of optimum range it would be A-3 C-2 S-2 M-2 L-2 VL-3.

Variable range does NOT increase the maximum range of the weapon, it makes it more accurate within its range.

Optionaly using the Long Range upgrade you could increase the range of the pulse laser to Distant. This has the same problem mentioned above as to the exact numbers used to hit.

Hope this helps.

 

[phavoc]

Hello there.

Complex question so the answer will be a bit long

Order of Events:

3. Combat Phase
a. In order of Initiative, ships can take actions.
b. Actions include: firing energy weapons, launching missiles,
boarding actions.
c. Reactions include: dodging, point defence, firing sand.
d. Actions are resolved.

The problem I see with the order of events is (b) and (c). Energy weapons are going to be travelling at the speed of light, so when you detect them they've basically arrived at their target. Detection systems, at least for Traveller, are also going to be limited to speed of light.

So really at the beginning of a combat round, a player needs to have already decided if they intend on performing dodge maneuvers, or laying sand for incoming attacks. At least for energy weapons.

Missiles, on the other hand, are not travelling at the speed of light, and thus ARE actually detectable and you can decide what to do about them once you detect them. So for them you can actually react.

This reminds me of the VERY old SSI computer game where you had to pre-plot your movement and when you were going to fire into the system, then the computer ran the turn, moving ships hex-by-hex and resolved the combat for you. It was an interesting training tool, as you had to try to estimate where the enemy was going to be and allocate your movement and fire accordingly. It was hilarious sometimes to play against another person and watch how people thought things would turn out, where in reality you had two people trying to avoid damage and lure the other player in... boy those battles could last forever!

 

[rust]

So really at the beginning of a combat round, a player needs to have already decided if they intend on performing dodge maneuvers, or laying sand for incoming attacks.

A good point.

Perhaps the Order of Events should therefore look more like this:

a) Protection Phase: Dodge, Sand vs. Energy Weapons
b) Action Phase: Firing Weapons, Launching Missiles, Boarding Actions
c) Reaction Phase: Evasion, Point Defence etc. vs. Missiles

 

[DFW]

Perhaps the Order of Events should therefore look more like this:

a) Protection Phase: Dodge, Sand vs. Energy Weapons
b) Action Phase: Firing Weapons, Launching Missiles, Boarding Actions
c) Reaction Phase: Evasion, Point Defence etc. vs. Missiles

That looks like a good and logical revision.

N.B. MGT designers working on errata.

 

[Captain Jonah]

I may have mentioned before a time or two that some areas of the rules are, erm somewhat, odd.

As writen for the answer to the chap who started the thread this is how the rules work. However as the the wise types say in the previous few replies it makes no sense as the rules are written.

New combat order.

Movement.

Defensive actions.
Allocate sandcasters to target ships and dump canisters into the line between the ship and one or more enemies and decide on level of evasion which applies against everyone and should also be done prior to firing. Decide active screens. Sort out any ECM.

Firing. Fire missiles and energy weapons either against target ships or against incoming missiles that are in flight. Roll all dice at this stage to make it easier. Start boarding actions etc.

Declare and carry out ship actions, repairs small craft launches etc.

Rinse and repeat.

This removes the whole reaction section of the combat system :twisted:

Add this lot to chapter ? of the new space combat system, name to be decided

 

[phavoc]

Yeah, I dunno how you can "react" to light-speed weapons. You better be on some really good combat drugs! Hmm, I wonder... an interesting use of the combat drug for starship combat... would it give you a +DM since your reactions are sped up?

I think most reactions for combat are going to be automatic. You are going to tell your systems what you want their default behavior to be, and as combat goes on, you, the human interface, will make adjustments to your systems based on how things are going. But essentially its computer vs. computer, with humans providing strategy and systems doing the tactical work.

I think only when ships get up close and personal will you have reactions occuring. But since Traveller never really had point-defense weapons or tactical weapons for starships, its all gonna be distance based. It's gotta be pretty hard to try and board a ship under thrust when it can go in any direction (including your own if it wants to smack you). Has anyone actually run some scenarios where you've tried to board a ship that is under power and attempting to evade the boarding ship?

 

[Yvan]

Thanks for the reply. It help me a lot understanding these rules.

I agree with you some rules are not logical as they are written in the book, but you may find easely a reason. For the defense again laser maybe charing the weapon emit raditions of some sort (ecm, heat) who say that the enemy ship will fire soon, the beam may last for a few second whitch permit to react or the targetting mecanism is visible (you can fire without a sensor lock so the weapon must use something to aim...).

But it's a pity that these reason wasn't in the books...

Anyone has an idea for the skill to used with fixed mount's weapon?

 

[hdan]

IIRC, in CT Sandcasters weren't used quite the same way. During the missile launching phase, you could launch a cloud of sand between you and an enemy, much like a smoke grenade on a modern tank. That cloud provided a negative DM to incoming AND outgoing laser fire until you maneuvered away from it or it dispersed.

The new sandcasters are more dynamic.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Yup.

However what has been questioned is the ability of a sandcaster to react fast enough to dump a sand canister into a laser that has hit you.

Dumping the sand first is more in keeping with clasic and makes more sense but you do, as you say, block your own laser fire as well. You can manover to allow you to fire past the cloud or simply not fire on the blocked target and use your energy weapons against a another target.

You can also time the sandcaster launchers and fire in the small time period when one cloud has fallen behind and just before the next cloud is spread. In this way your shots are not degraded but you need to do this randomly or the other guy will fire back through the same gaps.

You are looking at a 6 minute combat turn. Lots of time to dump a short burst of laser fire through a gap, possibly with a penalty to hit for your fire due to the short window of fire while still remaining protected from return fire. (maybe -2 for firing through your own cloud without degrading your own laser fire)

Something else for the revised, yet to be named, Traveller expanded combat system. This is going to end up as either several S&P articles or a mini pdf

 

[phavoc]

Thanks for the reply. It help me a lot understanding these rules.

I agree with you some rules are not logical as they are written in the book, but you may find easely a reason. For the defense again laser maybe charing the weapon emit raditions of some sort (ecm, heat) who say that the enemy ship will fire soon, the beam may last for a few second whitch permit to react or the targetting mecanism is visible (you can fire without a sensor lock so the weapon must use something to aim...).

But it's a pity that these reason wasn't in the books...

Anyone has an idea for the skill to used with fixed mount's weapon?

The detection systems used in Traveller (Lidar, radar, IR, visual) are all lightspeed based. Meaning that you can't detect something that's coming at your position at the speed of light any faster than it hitting you (or zipping by if it's a miss). That's just how energy weapons are going to work. Now if there is an instrument that is invented that can "see" a location in real-time (aka a crystal ball that lets you view anywhere), that would be different. But as far as I know, nobody has yet discovered Grandfather's crystal ball... adventure nugget anyone?

It's a pity a LOT of things aren't in the books...

Fixed mounts are going to be handled the same as turreted mounts. Since a combat round is 6 minutes long, it is easy to maneuver you ship's fixed weapons to bring them to bear on your enemy during a combat round. With small ships like fighters, they just point themselves at the enemy to fire and maneuver around like mad while they wait for their next opportunity to shoot.

 

[dayriff]

A lot could be fixed if you assume that laser damage doesn't occur instantly. Rather, the beam has to remain focused on an area long enough to heat up the hull and do its damage. So dodging is actually a long period of the laser painting the hull, slipping off, then slipping back on again. The question isn't if the gunner can hit, but if he can hold it long enough.

 

[DFW]

It's gotta be pretty hard to try and board a ship under thrust when it can go in any direction (including your own if it wants to smack you). Has anyone actually run some scenarios where you've tried to board a ship that is under power and attempting to evade the boarding ship?

If you set the ship on a 3 axis rotation, aligning a ship to board is impossible.
This would be the standard anti-boarding maneuver.

 

[DFW]

A lot could be fixed if you assume that laser damage doesn't occur instantly. Rather, the beam has to remain focused on an area long enough to heat up the hull and do its damage. So dodging is actually a long period of the laser painting the hull, slipping off, then slipping back on again. The question isn't if the gunner can hit, but if he can hold it long enough.

Pulse lasers.

 

[dayriff]

A lot could be fixed if you assume that laser damage doesn't occur instantly. Rather, the beam has to remain focused on an area long enough to heat up the hull and do its damage. So dodging is actually a long period of the laser painting the hull, slipping off, then slipping back on again. The question isn't if the gunner can hit, but if he can hold it long enough.

Pulse lasers.

What about them? Pulse lasers just vary their intensity up and down in oscillation to produce higher peaks and greater intensity overall. Even that occurs faster than a human can react.

I'd rather explain away pulse lasers than explain away reactions to interrupt instantly-occuring damage!

 

[DFW]

A lot could be fixed if you assume that laser damage doesn't occur instantly. Rather, the beam has to remain focused on an area long enough to heat up the hull and do its damage. So dodging is actually a long period of the laser painting the hull, slipping off, then slipping back on again. The question isn't if the gunner can hit, but if he can hold it long enough.

Pulse lasers.

What about them? Pulse lasers just vary their intensity up and down in oscillation to produce higher peaks and greater intensity overall.

Nope. Pulse lasers build up a high powered charge and release it in a burst. Just like IRL. Hence, the higher damage and shorter effective range.

 

[rust]

If you set the ship on a 3 axis rotation, aligning a ship to board is impossible.

The only chance I see, which is used in a couple of science fiction stories,
would be a kind of assault shuttle that would actually ram itself into the
rotating ship - requiring gravitics technology to dampen the impact and
keep the boarding team alive.

 

[dayriff]

Nope. Pulse lasers build up a high powered charge and release it in a burst. Just like IRL. Hence, the higher damage and shorter effective range.

You clipped away the relevant part about it being far easier to explain away pulse lasers (which aren't given anything but the adjective 'pulse' to explain how they work) than it is to explain away human reactions to instantaneous damage.

I mean, don't look for a reason to say "nope". Look for a rationalization to say "yep"!

 

[DFW]

You clipped away the relevant part about it being far easier to explain away pulse lasers (which aren't given anything but the adjective 'pulse' to explain how they work) than it is to explain away human reactions to instantaneous damage.

Nope, see the proposed rule changes above. You don't explain away insanely internally inconsistent rules, you change them.

 

[Captain Jonah]

To hit a tiny target relative to space and distance with a weapon you have to aim where it is when you get a sensor return from it. You also have to aim where it could be if it altered its speed and is in front of or behind where it was when your sensors painted it or above or below relative to you if it alters course. The target can be anywhere in a zone which gets bigger the faster or futher away it is.

A beam laser will sweep across this zone in a pattern intended to hit as much of it as possible to damage the target at least for a few seconds but both firer and target are moving and even a hit will quickly overshhot the target and need to sweep back. Remember that when you hit the target your sensors will take a fraction of a second to tell you and by then the target will have moved some distance perhaps out of the beam.

A pulse laser using capacitors to push the same power through the emitter over short bursts produces more damage but less area coverage. For example a laser could put out a beam of 200 Mw or it could put out pulses of 400 Mw other every ten seconds. Since you are firing seperate pulses you need to spread these across the target zone and end up leaving gaps where the ship could be. Hence the penalty to hit. Google pulse lasers for some nice examples and diagrams

Not sure how to do drawings here but imagine a cone or box of nine points. Three by three. The target is the middle point but because of its movement, up, down or slower or faster and the sensor delay it could be at any of the nine points when your beam arrives so you have to target as many of the probables as you can. A good gunner or program will narrow down the distance between the possible target points improving your chance to clip the target with a beam or hit it with a pulse

The problem with Lasers is the time it takes your sensors to tell you the beam is hitting you, your console flashes a warning at the same time damage control says you just got hit.

You can try to predict beam probabilies by perhaps detecting the photon scatter from the nearby beam as it sweeps towards you and if your combat combat computer gives a probability of a hit then dump sand.

But however you cut it, at light speed being hit is the first warning you get of being hit