SST WotS - constructive critique

[Galatea]

General

-Give all units endless reactions. One reaction may make sense for WaW or MC, but it clearly doesn't do for SST. Don't try to squeeze SST in the common ruleset it won't work.


MI

+The standardization of the officer cost for different units is a good thing, keep it.
- Give the Officers exactly the same equipment option as the Squads. There is no obvious reason why a Grizzly LT shouldn't get a Thermic Lance or a M9 Officer shouldn't get a Scythe Laser.

-Bring back the old limit of a maximum of 50% point value spend on assets

-Make 10 Man the standard squad size (according to the fluff). Note that this is my personal opinion and not a balancing issue.

-Limit the integration of Squad assets from other platoon types to 0-1. It makes sense to field just one Squad of another platoon (some Troopers scattered into the area of battle or attached as an immediate emergency support), but it doesn't make sense to get more. That's what the other platoon types are for – if you want to play three Squads of Exos take an Exo platoon.

-Sort the units per platoon type. LAMI, PAMI, Exos, Marauder, Pathfinder, Fleet Assets, Support Assets, Heroic Traits.
The saving place argument doesn't count since there is nothing you need to change in the layout. Just list the units down in a more structured way and don't throw them all together.

-Drop the different stats per side. This may make sense for WaW or MC, but it clearly doesn't do for SST. Don't try to squeeze SST in the common ruleset it won't work.
The worst one is the multifire trait at the Ape Marauder – this thing has a rotating Torso – it could even fire backwards! (besides that the Ape's Firepower is still too low)

-The Pathfinders Reaver Missile Launcher is still too cheap. They have Killshot after all.

-Jump/24“ for WASP packs is a bit too high. Hover/18“ has proven well, keep it.

-The CHAS-UC is too cheap. It's a close combat killer and most CHAS won't use their mortar anyway. It a no-brainer to take a CHAS-UC instead of a normal CHAS (clear sign for an unbalanced unit).
-The CHAS-S doesn't make much sense. Since it doesn't have lock and load it will fire just one Sixgun per turn most of the time. So the CHAS-UC is still the no-brainer choice.

-Give the Military Agent at least a pwoer suit option. It's just unrealisticaly stupid that a precious Agent supporting a powersuit platoon in a highly dangerous environment will walk around in nothing more than flak armour.

-Drop the Skinnie Advisor. He doesn't make any sense in the war of species and his ambush special rule causes tremendous balancing problems (ambushing instant-nuke).

+Only models with Fleet liaison may call for orbital bombardement. Good idea!

-I don't like the new orbital bombardement itself. The Mobile infantry should have the technology to bring them down with pinpoint accuracy. Note that this is my personal opinion, not a balancing issue.

-The Skyhook is still too cheap. Drop it to one TwinFifty and it's okay.

+The new Heavenly Mercy rule is a nice idea though it seems very tricky to use.
-The Slingshot's Bombing variants do not make much sense to me - if you want to bomb you call in a TAC Fighter, not a Dropship. How about giving it something like two TwinFiftys? (making it something like the Spectre)

-Drop the Viking to one TwinFifty and it's okay.

-Block Psychic Talent still doesn't make any sense. Measure the range to the unit targeted by the talent OR the caster of it.

+Daredevil: This trait may not be used with Artillery or Lethal Zone weapons. Good!

-Fire King is still impracticable. I may be powerful but it also makes the model possessing it a priority one target.

-The Neodog is somewhat impracticable. It is too cheap for what it brings to a Squad (reacting to tunnel markers and revealing cloaked units) but has the problem that it can't keep up with a moving power suit Squad.

- Nuclear Protocols is too expensive. The Nukes already cost a lot of points.

-Bring back the Stream Templates for Flamers and the beam-rule for lasers (that was a good one).

-Weapons table: It should be noted which weapons have specials rules in their entry (just make a trait [special rules]). I really couldn't bother to read all those descriptions and would have probably missed the Firestorm's special rule if I had been a new player.

 

[Paladin]

-I will concur the single reaction really breaks the game and changes it dramatically. I was a proponent of one reaction initially, but the more it's used the less I like it. It changes the flow of the whole game and really changes the usefulness of a lot of units.

-Agree that officers should have equal equipment access. I've mentioned the same thing previously.

-10 man squads makes customizing forces more difficult and a bit cookie cutter. variable numbers allows for combat casualties, under/over strength units.

-I think the new order is better. It's easier to find things in alpha order. The only improvement I would make is integrating command units in the same way rather than sectioning them out. A solid reference sheet that combines all the charts like the Skinnies book for each army's units would be awesome.

-I'm torn on the split stats. Realisitcally the Ape layout is dyslexic, there is more armor and less access to vulnerable gear. I do like the options for tactics and backshots though. Perhaps a good compromise would be to leave the armor alone on the M8/M9 but lower the hit/kill to reflect catching the unit off gaurd and making it easier to hit, but not any weaker in structural integrity.

-Pathfinder Reaver - I'll have to play with that next time...

-WASP packs aren't terrible if using 1 reaction. My personal preference would be to skip the hover all together and go with V/STOL.

-CHAS-UC = It might be mildly off in price, but not by much. I've always thought the CHAS was a bit overpriced for a rather fragile unit. The upgrades without tweakig points much make it a more viable unit option.

-CHAS-S = I've always thought the CHAS should have lock and load (multihit/2). Alpha strike tends to be used once/twice early on, but holding still to use it other times is often too difficult to stay alive.

-The SICON officer DEFINITELY needs a power suit. I've asked for it before.

-Skinnie Advisor = he's not much different than before unless I'm missing something. I think a better resolution would be to give the other armies the ability detect the hidden units and give the ability attack them before they are useable.

-Fleet Liaison = isn't that the same? (I can't remember)

-Skyhook = need to test more to decide either way. Two guns should stay for accuracy on other sources, up the points if it's that big of an issue.

-Heavenly Mercy = as reported to Matt, I would like to see this clarified and add a few limits:
1. Any units that receive the bonus count against the Air Transport size limit.
2. Clarification on what happens if the landed unit exits the board with wounded cargo.
3. Clarification on what happens if the unit is destroyed with the wounded units on board.

-Slingshot bombing = no issue, though a spiffy name would be a nice "fluff" touch.

-Viking = see skyhook above.

-Block Psychic Talent = it's worded that way for the Coven.

-Daredevil = agreed. Was a loophole that needed closing.

-Fire King = I've never used it because it can only be taken by officers who are already prime targets. Doesn't seem like a tactically sound option, but I could be wrong.

-Neodog = agreed. It needs a Runner/12 ability or something to allow it to essentially "double move" while it's owner is running. Another improvement would be to have a larger command radius as they are still bonded mentally.

-Nuclear Protocols = I've still never understood why this should have to be a purchased trait. It should be implicit by rank. If it's a power issue the nukes need to be more expensive, not the ability to use them.

-Streams = YES! YES! YES! PLEASE BRING THEM BACK!

-Weapons Table = Excellent idea Galatea. Even an * would be helpful.



Additional items:
-Moving support platforms = Needs a bit more explanation. Does this require a Ready then a Move or just a Move? Can you Jump with the units? Can Exosuits or Marauders move them?

-Avenger Bombardment is an option for LAMI but not in the list of weapons.

-Explain nukes a bit more for new players. Are they assigned per squad or model? Are they lost permanently if the model dies or can it be recovered?

-Stay Frosty should be a 2" bonus on reations to make it useable for Pathfinders.

-Bring Captains back but give them a new “command suit” that offers a bonus action akin to the Brain bug or command units in BF:MC.

-I'd like to see command radius vary by rank.
Corp/Sarge = 6"
Senior Sarge = 9"
Lt = 12"
Captain = 18"

-I'd like to see a new trait that allows for larger command radius too.

 

[Galatea]

-Pathfinder Reaver - I'll have to play with that next time...

The Killshot trait makes it really ugly against larger units, especially against tunnel markers.

-CHAS-UC = It might be mildly off in price, but not by much. I've always thought the CHAS was a bit overpriced for a rather fragile unit. The upgrades without tweakig points much make it a more viable unit option.

I never recognized the CHAS as a fragile unit. I like to use a couple of 2-4 CHAS and in fact these are my only MI units that ever walk over open terrain (though I prefer to hide them if possible, of course). They are hard enough to survive 3-4 Holepunches and have devastating attack capabilities.
In V1 I would always take 2 CHAS instead of one power suit squad (in WotS they are a little weaker, primarily to the loss of autoloaders, but still very powerful).

-Skyhook = need to test more to decide either way. Two guns should stay for accuracy on other sources, up the points if it's that big of an issue.

Well, they would still have a TWIN Fifty

We had one LAMI player who had the tendency to fill the skies with these. And I can tell you they are damn cheap for the 8D6+1 p/1 they throw out.

-I'd like to see command radius vary by rank.
Corp/Sarge = 6"
Senior Sarge = 9"
Lt = 12"
Captain = 18"

That's a really good idea, I will keep it in mind.

 

[Paladin]

-Skyhook = need to test more to decide either way. Two guns should stay for accuracy on other sources, up the points if it's that big of an issue.

Well, they would still have a TWIN Fifty

We had one LAMI player who had the tendency to fill the skies with these. And I can tell you they are damn cheap for the 8D6+1 p/1 they throw out.

-You could be an equal "jerk" and put everything in tunnels. Emerge, fire and brain bug back underground. As a tunnel marker you are immortal to .50 cals.
-Take King Tankers, also immortal
-Kamakazi ripplers.
-Multiple plasmas that come on the board as reserves and fire via a brain or two.
-Brain, Plasma and Burrower bug combo. Very odd that the little guy can dig a tunnel that big, that fast.

 

[Galatea]

I never said that there are no ways of defeating this list, but this does not change the fact that these are too cheap.
You can just take three for 375p (which leaves you plenty of other stuff) and you get 3 flying Twin Fiftys (dishing out 24D6+1) that will shoot the crap out of any opposing light infantry.

Basically you can counter EVERY dumb list or tactic in SST but you shouldn't need to fall back on ways that are as extreme or dumb as the thing you want to counter.

 

[DropChief]

The Skyhook has 'four' barrels technically, not a single twin-50 (hence why the stats give it two twin-50s). A pair under the cockpit chin and singles either side.

I would prefer to see the points cost raised if it is too unbalanced, than someone telling me the guns on my nice model don't exist even though I can plainly see them there!

Edit: I haven't got the list in front of me, but what would it cost points wise just to take 6 x Reliants (twin-50's) by comparisson just out of curiosity?
Is the objection that 375 is too cheap for 6x twin-50s? ... or that they are mounted on something thats harder to kill and can fly?

Trying to see what the difference would be to say, taking your LAMI platoon, buying it some bunkers and mounting Reliants on them (other than the fact that they obviously stay put!) :wink:

Not arguing either way here, just curious.

 

[Galatea]

The Skyhook has 'four' barrels technically, not a single twin-50 (hence why the stats give it two twin-50s). A pair under the cockpit chin and singles either side.

Well, then call it "Dropship Gun Array" and make it 4D6+1, p/1, AA, Auto.

Edit: I haven't got the list in front of me, but what would it cost points wise just to take 6 x Reliants (twin-50's) by comparisson just out of curiosity?
Is the objection that 375 is too cheap for 6x twin-50s? ... or that they are mounted on something thats harder to kill and can fly?

Basically two Troopers with one Twin Fifty Reliant cost about 60 points on average (Support Squad). In SST1 a Reliant with TwinFifty has a cost of 60p (without Troopers).
So that would make up 360p for 6 Reliants in both cases (in V2 you get 12 Troopers, too).

360 points for 6 Twin Fiftys that are nearly immobile, have the armour of a Power Suit (at best), can be shot by all weapons and are NOT flying up to 40" in one turn.
Decide yourself what's better. I'd knew my choice.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

A reliant can fire that Twin-fifty twice while the Skyhook can only use each one once though. There's a degree of balance there, though I'd want to try the skyhook in a game before saying for sure one way or another.

 

[DropChief]

360 points for 6 Twin Fiftys that are nearly immobile, have the armour of a Power Suit (at best), can be shot by all weapons and are NOT flying up to 40" in one turn.
Decide yourself what's better. I'd knew my choice.

No need to be so defensive, was just asking the question.
In fact as I said, I was comparing the skyhook to a bunker with a pair of emplacements.
A bunker would add another +100 points and can hold 10 (up to size 2) models. So a bunker plus two reliants would make 220 points vs the 125 of a Skyhook. Like Lorcan says though, the Relaints get to fire twice as much. Plus add to that the bunker is much tougher (Target 9+/Kill 12+) with more hits (Hits/9) and all the troopers get to shoot out of it to boot.

True, it can't fly and as you rightly say all weapons can shoot at it (not just AA), but thats still over double the output of a Skyhook as well as a lot tougher for not much more in points.

I will take your advice and decide myself ... I decide I like bunkers :lol:

In context I am just not seeing that the Skyhook merits dropping a twin-fifty. Maybe a slight points cost, but to be honest I am not sure it even needs that the more I look at it. Sorry.

 

[Galatea]

I am not defensive or aggressive

The problem is you cannot place TwinFiftys inside a bunker.
And the Skyhook is an Air Unit - if you target light infantry it doesn't matter whether you hit them with two TwinFiftys or four - they are dead anyway.
Emplacements are easy to evade as they are immobile or almost immobile - but you cannot evade a Loiter flying Skyhook.
It will simply fly across the entire map in one turn and then shred an entire Power Suit Squad, which is worth at least twice the value of the Skyhook - so you can even loose one Dropship and are still ahead.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

The Guns in the Skyhook are fixed forward, so if it takes one action on Loiter and then turns 90 degrees you're still only going to be able to cover half the battlefield at best. The main disadvantage ground forces have against the skyhook is the dearth of high-yield AAA. Assuming loiter movement, even sixguns only score hits on a 5+