Spring attack

[Voltumna]

Hyboria's Fiercest has the skirmisher combat style that grants spring attack at 11th level, but where can you look at the description of spring attack?

Also, in the core rule book, the archery combat style says you gain shot on the run at 5th, but haven't saw that ability described anywhere.

 

[Turim]

The Spring Attack feat can be found in the D&D Player's Handbook. It works like Fighting on the Run (Conan Original Edition p. 168), except you don't incur an AoO from your target for moving. You also have to move at least 5 feet before and after your attack.

The Shot on the Run feat can be found in the AE, but it is essentially Fighting on the Run with ranged weapons.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Hyboria's Fiercest has the skirmisher combat style that grants spring attack at 11th level, but where can you look at the description of spring attack?

That was an error on my part in Hyboria's Fiercest. It should be replaced with Greater Mobility.

 

[Sutek]

Greater Mobility is the exact same thing as Spring Attack in D&D, Vince?

 

[VincentDarlage]

Greater Mobility can be found in the Barbarian description in the Core Rules.

 

[Voltumna]

great combat style for a borderer!

 

[Sutek]

Greater Mobility can be found in the Barbarian description in the Core Rules.

Ah...I was looking through every friggin book trying to spot it as a Feat (lol).

DOH!

 

[Voltumna]

Vicent, regarding the Skirmisher combat style, Hyboria's Fiercest says:

"This style is well-suited to borderers who prefer opportunistic melee attacks to archery or more showy attacks. Fast and unimpeded movement through melee can make Sneak Attacks far easier than usual."

@ 11th level the borderer gets Spring attack (Greater mobility). Greater mobility allows you to move up to your speed all or in parts, and still use a full attack action.

If the borderer has sneak attacks because of some levels of thief, could you give example scenarios where he could deliver the sneak attacks while using greater mobility?

 

[VincentDarlage]

If the borderer has sneak attacks because of some levels of thief, could you give example scenarios where he could deliver the sneak attacks while using greater mobility?

Get surprise, then win the initiative. Get a movement action and close, then a full-attack with sneak attacks while opponents are flat-footed, then move away. Of course, if you lose initiative, this doesn't work so well.

 

[argo]

If the borderer has sneak attacks because of some levels of thief, could you give example scenarios where he could deliver the sneak attacks while using greater mobility?

Use greater mobility to move into flanking position (obviously requires a flanking buddy).

 

[Voltumna]

If the borderer has sneak attacks because of some levels of thief, could you give example scenarios where he could deliver the sneak attacks while using greater mobility?

Get surprise, then win the initiative. Get a movement action and close, then a full-attack with sneak attacks while opponents are flat-footed, then move away. Of course, if you lose initiative, this doesn't work so well.

My Gm is having trouble allowing a thief to strike his senak attacks when he wins initiative on the first round of combat. For starters, I have tried to explain that this only takes place once through the combat scene, that there are abilities and feats that negate this (uncany dodge and reflexive parry) but it's just too much for him. I think I will have a harder time trying him to allow the surprise attacks after combat has begun. What I don't get is that even if a thief can deliver a great deal of damage when he strikes a sneak attack, the same is not being objected about the barbarians and soldiers who fight with the power attack-cleave feats, and heavy two handed weapons. The barbarian for instance, fights with a bardiche, he usually takes a good penalty to his to hit (-5 or so) he has fighting madness, so when in that berserk rage, he is usually droping a foe with each blow, and he gets another attack and so on...

I understand the thing about surprise is awareness. How would you determine awareness after combat has begun?

 

[urdinaran]

What do you mean by : "My Gm is having trouble allowing a thief to strike his senak attacks when he wins initiative on the first round of combat." ???

If a thief can reach an opponent on the first round of combat before that opponent has acted, he gets his sneak attack, end of story. That is one of the strengths of a thief. After that , he has to move around and flank opponents, usually not wearing very much in the way of protection. Thieves can dish out some damage at the beginning of a fight, but are not good in a toe-to-toe fight.

 

[Trodax]

I think I will have a harder time trying him to allow the surprise attacks after combat has begun.

I understand the thing about surprise is awareness. How would you determine awareness after combat has begun?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The rules for when a sneak attack is allowed are actually very precise, and it's not a matter of the GM having to decide if an opponent is aware or not.
By the rules, you can sneak attack if one of these two conditions apply:

1) If your opponent is unable to Dodge or Parry. This can happen in a number of situations, the most common being when he is flat-footed at the start of the first round because he hasn't acted yet. This isn't a matter of surprise; even if two guys are facing off in a duel and are totally aware of each other, the one who loses initiative will still be flat-footed and open to sneak attacks, according to the rules. A lot of people think this is counterintuitive, but its one of the most important strengths of the Thief class, and disallowing it will weaken the Thief quite a bit.
Your opponent will also be unable to Dodge or Parry (and therefore vulnerable to sneak attacks) if he is grappled, blinded etc., but these situations are always noted in the rules.

2) If you are flanking your opponent. Note that this is also not a matter of surprise; if you're flanked you can always be sneaked attack, and it's not possible to for example "direct your attention" towards the Thief to avoid it.

The rules for surprise are distinct from these rules, and are applied alongside them. In short, you get an extra action before the first round if your opponent is unaware of you. Surprise helps when sneak attacking since it gives you the opportunity to perform more sneak attacks because of #1 above, but it doesn't in itself grant sneak attacks.

Hope that helps, and good luck convincing your GM.

 

[Voltumna]

it seems he just doesn't like thieves, it is very frustrating.

they don't see the benefit for other classes as well, since anyone who wins initiative in the first round will attack against a dv of 10. if they are not thieves they just don't deal the extra damage.

even if two guys are facing off in a duel and are totally aware of each other, the one who loses initiative will still be flat-footed and open to sneak attacks, according to the rules.

this is a very good point, but you can't reason the matter with him. even some players are siding with him on this, obviously these are non-thief players. i'll try argumenting this points again.

 

[VincentDarlage]

they don't see the benefit for other classes as well, since anyone who wins initiative in the first round will attack against a dv of 10. if they are not thieves they just don't deal the extra damage.

The benefit is for any character who wants to move, get a full attack and move away or escape. It is a guerrilla tactic. Get in, hit hard with as many attacks as possible, then flee, possibly leading pursuers into a trap if not just hiding or outrunning the pursuers (esp. if the pursuers are heavily armoured soldiers who cannot run fast or lose their Dex bonus while running). Picts are notorious for that tactic.

 

[Voltumna]

they don't see the benefit for other classes as well, since anyone who wins initiative in the first round will attack against a dv of 10. if they are not thieves they just don't deal the extra damage.

The benefit is for any character who wants to move, get a full attack and move away or escape. It is a guerrilla tactic. Get in, hit hard with as many attacks as possible, then flee, possibly leading pursuers into a trap if not just hiding or outrunning the pursuers (esp. if the pursuers are heavily armoured soldiers who cannot run fast or lose their Dex bonus while running). Picts are notorious for that tactic.

Thanks Vincent, but I was refering to the off topic fact that our GM has trouble allowing sneak attacks to thieves who win initiative in the first round of combat.

What you say regarding the spring attack is pretty neat for a rougue character. I was considering taking the feat look what i can do from road of kings, since it would to a certain degree emulate the mobility of a barbarian. Well, not really, but it has that kind of feel to it.

Since you mention the picts, I particularly liked the savage dancer prestige class from Across Thunder River, a murderous whirlwind.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Sorry to revive a three-year old thread, but I'd like some clarification.
When reading about the Skirmisher style, I figured Spring Attack should be replaced - and automatically assumed it should be the next link in the Mobility chain, i.e. Improved Mobility.
Here however you say it ought to be Greater Mobility. Can you explain?

After all, IMob is a level 10 ability and GMob is level 15, so the Borderer would get it way sooner than the other classes.
On the other hand, GMob doesn't do jack against AoOs, so the Borderer would have Greater Mobility but still draw AoOs as if he only had Mobility.

Is it really supposed to be like this?

We're getting a new player now who wants to play a Borderer, and is considering the Skirmisher fighting style, but we'd first like to be sure what it does. ^^

 

[treeplanter]

bump on an old thread, nobody answered Clovenhoof question.

Personnally I think it would be fine to allow borderer with this style to skip improved mobility and get Greater mobility at 11 (that what virtual feat are for). A multiclass charater could get it at 11 anyway (even 10th if you multiclass 2 mobility class).

 

[Sourcerer]

The question just can´t be answered properly.

Here you have a mix of D&D, Conan 1st and Conan 2nd.
There can not be a definitive answer.

If you want a house-rule, do whatever feels right to you.