space elevator

[5h4ne]

I'm writing up a one-shot scenario for use at a informal con in a few weeks. The scenario is based around rescuing a prisoner from an asteroid that is being used as a counterweight on a space elevator.
The rough plan for the space elevator is:

(not to scale)

Is this sort of thing feasible in a Traveller setting? My idea comes from reading Kim Stanley Robinson's first Mars book, and providing the players with a dramatic scenario involving subterfuge and plenty of high stakes action.

I'm not very tech/ science orientated, so I'm going for this is a one off sort of situation - the world is lower g than earth and smaller, with a thin but breathable (perhaps) atmosphere. The elevator is there to provide rapid extraction of the ore / produce being taken from the planet to the highport. The elevator is made from some kind of nan-graphene material harvested from the asteroid. Most of the time this probably wouldn't be economically viable but circumstances justify it in this instance. The world would probably be in the Spinward Marches, any suggestions welcome.

Any thoughts / comments / suggestions welcome. Thanks

Shane

 

[Lemnoc]

Is this sort of thing feasible in a Traveller setting? My idea comes from reading Kim Stanley Robinson's first Mars book, and providing the players with a dramatic scenario involving subterfuge and plenty of high stakes action.

Lots of material out there about space elevators, including the math and underlying physics. You can pick up a copy of MgT 2300AD's French Arm Adventures on DriveThru as a PDF for $20 that has a complete diagram of a space elevator built on Traveller rules. If that helps.

You say the setting is in the Spinward Marches, though. In CT, gravitics technology would seem to make these things obsolete.

 

[dragoner]

I'm writing up a one-shot scenario for use at a informal con in a few weeks.

Shane

Looks great, I would +1 it if I could.

Rob

 

[phavoc]

Yes, in a Traveller setting it would be possible.

In defense of space elevators in a gravitic society, you need to keep in mind that a space elevator will provide a long-term economy of scale that gravitics won't. Today moving cargo by ships/barges over water remains the cheapest per/ton method of transporting cargo. While it is limited (i.e. you can't get to places that don't have water nearby), it allows for cheap transport of bulk cargoes.

From your description, the transport of ores and agricultural goods, moving them slowly (by comparison to gravitics) makes no difference as long as its cheap. Of course the cost of building a space elevator would need to be factored in...but since its planetary infrastructure you can simply wave your hand and make it so.

More than likely most people would travel by shuttle, as would rush cargoes or perishables. But there's generally no rush on hauling a container to high orbit in preparation for loading onto a ship. Does wheat or iron care if it takes 20 hours to get to orbit? Nope. The shippers only care about cheap from point A to point B. And starships that only have to dock in orbit will save days not having to deal with downports.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

One of the tech levels in Traveller will explain how non-trivial such a setup is. Or are you worried that society-at-large in the Traveller setting will prevent you from building such a monstrosity?

Orbital (for Mongoose Traveller) has ideas like you are working on.

 

[5h4ne]

Thanks to all for the replies and information which has been really useful. Perhaps I should have rephrased "rapid extraction" to "constant extraction" as suggested most helpfully by Phavoc which would give a good rationale that fits with what I'm trying to write. As a non-technically minded Traveller ref I'm just trying to provide interesting and feasible backdrops for scenarios for my players to hopefully enjoy, it's just nice to know it could work with the setting, even if it is outmoded -if non-trivial- tech (looking at the rulebook, probably TL8-TL11)

 

[GJD]

There was a scenario set on Terra/sol in an old White Dwarf about a heist involving a space elevator, as I recall. Had some groovy Nik Weeks maps in it.

G.

 

[F33D]

Yes, in a Traveller setting it would be possible.

In defense of space elevators in a gravitic society, you need to keep in mind that a space elevator will provide a long-term economy of scale that gravitics won't.

How do you figure that? In MgT for instance, volume not mass is the limitation of grav drives to lift something. With ships you have the flexibility of adding or withdrawing capacity MUCH more quickly. NOT so with an elevator. So, from an econ perspective I don't see anything to support that claim..

 

[2330ADUSA1]

I always like the Bean Stalk concept and felt it would be cool to put it in place in a few other places too.

 

[phavoc]

Yes, in a Traveller setting it would be possible.

In defense of space elevators in a gravitic society, you need to keep in mind that a space elevator will provide a long-term economy of scale that gravitics won't.

How do you figure that? In MgT for instance, volume not mass is the limitation of grav drives to lift something. With ships you have the flexibility of adding or withdrawing capacity MUCH more quickly. NOT so with an elevator. So, from an econ perspective I don't see anything to support that claim..

I'm basing my claim on how today's transportation systems work. Why haven't trucks taken over all deliveries of bulk goods and services today from rail and barge/ships? Because it's actually far cheaper to maintain the infrastructure (ports and rails) and the ships/trains than it is to have the same number of trucks doing the deliveries.

Lets break down the example given - the space elevator delivers agricultural and mineral products to orbit for them to be loaded. Each vessel making a delivery needs a crew as well as the support crew and maintenance costs. For the space elevator its mostly automated, so you attach your container of cargo (for sake of argument lets say the shuttles and beanstalk both use standard 100dton cargo modules) to the beanstalk and let the machinery do the rest. A crew of say 4 can attach and deliver more modules per hour than a shuttle crew would be able too. The shuttles would require fueling, the beanstalk would be a net contributor of power to the planetary grid. Both would require maintenance, but the beanstalk would probably require less (though since there is far more of it, that could be a wash).

If you made the same comparison today, using todays technology, a single train with a crew of two can deliver 130 cars of coal, on average of about 150 tons per car. A single truck can deliver 40 tons of coal. It takes 3 trucks to equal one rail car. So the average train delivers the same amount of coal as almost 400 trucks. 2 people vs 400. HUGE cost savings there. Even though the trucks can deliver it faster, it is far cheaper to deliver bulk cargo by rail (and even cheaper to do so by water). The same logic holds true to the Traveller universe (the costs related to bulk cargo have never been well defined anyway).

 

[5h4ne]

I always like the Bean Stalk concept and felt it would be cool to put it in place in a few other places too.

The prisoner to be rescued in the scenario is called Jack....

 

[F33D]

Lets break down the example given - the space elevator delivers agricultural and mineral products to orbit for them to be loaded. Each vessel making a delivery needs a crew as well as the support crew and maintenance costs.

And you think that TL ~12+ surface to orbit ships won't be automated? A space elevator is a MUCH more fragile item that Trav craft. Simply check out the material stresses imposed by the design...

 

[phavoc]

Lets break down the example given - the space elevator delivers agricultural and mineral products to orbit for them to be loaded. Each vessel making a delivery needs a crew as well as the support crew and maintenance costs.

And you think that TL ~12+ surface to orbit ships won't be automated? A space elevator is a MUCH more fragile item that Trav craft. Simply check out the material stresses imposed by the design...

Based on what is in all the Traveller versions today, with a more or less ban on AI-piloted vessels, yes, I would suspect that to be the case.

As far as material science goes, a beanstalk built with today's theoretical materials (carbon nanotubes or graphene). But since anti-grav, jump drives and fusion power are also beyond the realms of today's science, why not?

 

[Lemnoc]

Thanks to all for the replies and information which has been really useful. Perhaps I should have rephrased "rapid extraction" to "constant extraction" as suggested most helpfully by Phavoc which would give a good rationale that fits with what I'm trying to write. As a non-technically minded Traveller ref I'm just trying to provide interesting and feasible backdrops for scenarios for my players to hopefully enjoy, it's just nice to know it could work with the setting, even if it is outmoded -if non-trivial- tech (looking at the rulebook, probably TL8-TL11)

I think the stated reasoning inre handling bulk cargoes is pretty sound overall, well within the realm of reasonable handwavery.

Since you're just doing this as a one-off scenario for a con, why worry about placing it specifically in the Spinward Marches in the 3I? Just place it where and when you like, and where it makes sense. The science and basis for these devices is sound, and that's pretty much all you need.

 

[5h4ne]

Since you're just doing this as a one-off scenario for a con, why worry about placing it specifically in the Spinward Marches in the 3I? Just place it where and when you like, and where it makes sense. The science and basis for these devices is sound, and that's pretty much all you need.

I am running it as a one off but I also may use it with a campaign group I'm going to be running in a few weeks, who are set in 3I/Spinward Marches, when I'm gonna run Project Steel first, then maybe this in between and move onto something else, before we rotate back to CoC.

It'd be nice to run it twice to see the difference in players and also due to the effort of writing it..