Some issues with Cults of Glorantha Volume 1

[Trifletraxor]

Overall, the Cults of Glorantha Volume 1 is a great book. The only major issue I have with it is the horrible pig-creatures depicted on page 16, where a picture of some Uz should have been instead.

There are some lesser issues though:

1) Could we maybe the contents been descriped in more than 4 lines? Maybe with which pages held the different gods?

2) When describing the pantheons, why aren't the gods belonging to them listed as well? I know it's listed on the individual gods which pantheon they belong to, but unless you are very familiar with the book, chosing which solar god you should worship f.ex. takes some searching.

3) Humakt, why is he providing spells for assosiated cults suddenly? And why is he member of as much as two pantheons, when he actually have severed all clan ties?

SGL.

 

[Rurik]

So, like, you have yours?

I didn't think they'd gone out yet.

 

[Voriof]

Overall, the Cults of Glorantha Volume 1 is a great book.

Glad you like it.

There are some lesser issues though:

1) Could we maybe the contents been descriped in more than 4 lines? Maybe with which pages held the different gods?

I don't have my copy. Is there an index?

2) When describing the pantheons, why aren't the gods belonging to them listed as well? I know it's listed on the individual gods which pantheon they belong to, but unless you are very familiar with the book, chosing which solar god you should worship f.ex. takes some searching.

When I sent in the MS. The Pantheon sections did have the various gods and which pantheons they belonged to. I suppose it may have been edited out, especially with the cults being distributed over two books and some pantheons/traditions/churches having different kinds of worship (e.g. shamanism, theisim, sorcery).

If you like, or if Mongoose wishes, I can put together a pantheon listing - I'd have to wait till my copy arrives.

3) Humakt, why is he providing spells for assosiated cults suddenly? And why is he member of as much as two pantheons, when he actually have severed all clan ties?

SGL.

Humakt may be a loner but his cult is a part of society. As such, it is a part of a pantheon. These are cultural constructs. Though Humakt severed his ties among the Orlanthi in mythology, he remained a part of the Storm Tribe, forming new ties when he became Orlanth's Champion.

Pantheons are as much a social construct as a mythological one, afterall.

Humakt is also worshipped among the Carmanians. His worship in Carmania is somewhat different that that of the Orlanthi. Among these northern folks he is the god of death and war and warriors but not honour and has never divorced himself from his kin.

Hope this helps!

Voriof - who wishes he had a copy!

 

[Trifletraxor]

I don't have my copy. Is there an index?

Ew... my grasp of the language isn't that good. Index, that's the alphabetical list in the back of the book? If so, it's missing.

When I sent in the MS. The Pantheon sections did have the various gods and which pantheons they belonged to. I suppose it may have been edited out, especially with the cults being distributed over two books and some pantheons/traditions/churches having different kinds of worship (e.g. shamanism, theisim, sorcery).

I hate those editors! Cutting pages, that's all they think about!

If you like, or if Mongoose wishes, I can put together a pantheon listing - I'd have to wait till my copy arrives.

I have a full list allready from RQ3, but would probably be helpfull for the newbees.

Humakt may be a loner but his cult is a part of society. As such, it is a part of a pantheon. These are cultural constructs. Though Humakt severed his ties among the Orlanthi in mythology, he remained a part of the Storm Tribe, forming new ties when he became Orlanth's Champion.

Hmm... I thought Humakt severed his this to the Orlanthi pantheon after Orlanth killed Yelm. He didn't have any assosiated cults in earlier editions. I'll have to do some more research!

Voriof - who wishes he had a copy!

You don't have a copy??? I got mine maybe 3 weeks ago. I thought everybody had it by now.

A bit skinny, would have like to have the two volumes in one book, but I certainly like it!

SGL.

Oh, one other thing: The Orlanth cult is divided into several different types Aspects. Do they work as assosiated cults for eachother? Can they get spells from eachother?

 

[Utgardloki]

Pantheons are as much a social construct as a mythological one, afterall.

I have very little information directly available to me on Glorantha, but I would think that pantheons are a very important organization structure for the Gods.

For my multiverse, I reasoned that the Gods were organized into clans called Pantheons. My homebrew world of Audor is based on the Norse mythology, and there are examples of deities moving from one pantheon (Jotun, Vanir, or Aesir) to another (e.g. Skade, Freya, and Loki). And despite friendly ties to Aesir deities, some Jotun deities are considered members of a "foreign" pantheon.

I also ended up creating a Kosaka pantheon for the barbarians from the eastern plains. Many of them worship Aesir deities like Skade and Inyr (Inyr is a goddess I invented, sort of along the lines of the Sapphire and 10th Muse comic books), but the Kosaka pantheon is separate from, and the goddess of love and wind (Neriya is her name) competes with Freya and Frigga.

There are a few Greek deities worshipped in the kingdom of Audor (e.g. Hecate and Apollo), and a god named Pachacamac from who-knows-what-pantheon has also established a presence. And there is a mysterious God with No Name who is worshipped as the only god by the Toranians.

I am imagining that the deities of Glorantha would be similarly arranged, with different pantheons competing with each other. It makes a lot of sense: a god like the Iron Kingdom's Menoth, who wants to be worshipped as the only deity of men, has to take care of everything -- love, war, nature, cities, everything. A god in the Aesir pantheon, like Sif, can concentrate on what she likes and not have to worry about trying to cover every need of her deities. ("Your mother died? Let me transfer you over to Hel and she'll take care of your prayer. Tell her that I have an interest in your petition.")

Of course, if the official word is that the Gods of Glorantha do not organize themselves into pantheons, that is so (at least in the official Glorantha).

(Except for the dwarven and elven deities, the Iron Kingdom deities are not in pantheons. One consequence of this is mentioned on my "Runequest Kingdoms, which is that every deity in the IK has an order of druids, including Cyriss, the IK goddess of things mechanical. Gotta go out into the woods if you wanna strip mine them and then build shopping malls there.)

 

[CharlieMonster]

Hmm... I thought Humakt severed his this to the Orlanthi pantheon after Orlanth killed Yelm. He didn't have any assosiated cults in earlier editions. I'll have to do some more research!

I might be wrong, but I think he sidled back into the Orlanthi Pantheon in 3rd Edition, I'll have to retrieve my copy of Gods of Glorantha from the dog's basket & check. (Only kidding about the basket, I don't have a dog!).

 

[Voriof]

Hmm... I thought Humakt severed his this to the Orlanthi pantheon after Orlanth killed Yelm. He didn't have any assosiated cults in earlier editions. I'll have to do some more research!

I might be wrong, but I think he sidled back into the Orlanthi Pantheon in 3rd Edition, I'll have to retrieve my copy of Gods of Glorantha from the dog's basket & check. (Only kidding about the basket, I don't have a dog!).

Yes. That is the case. (Or you could go and play some King of Dragon Pass and live through some of the myths). He is also worshipped in Carmania. Note the associated spells are only from the Carmanian cults. He has no associated cults among the Orlanthi where he is very much an outsider/loner god.

At least, that was the intent when I wrote it.

Voriof

 

[StephenT]

As I understand it, Humakt broke his ties of kinship and no longer recognises Orlanth as his brother. He does, however, recognise Orlanth as rightful ruler of the Storm Tribe, of which he is still a member.

The sourcebook 'Storm Tribe' describes the (voluntary) 'resheathing ritual' which allows Humakti to take a place in society and become subject to its laws and traditions, instead of being complete outsiders and outlaws - this mirrors Humakt's mythological acceptance of a place in Orlanth's stead.

Of course, children still run away screaming when powerful Humakti ride into the village, crops wither, and if they spend the night in your house the pregnant women suffer miscarriages and the very young, old or frail die in their sleep... (I don't know if this part made it into the MRQ book? )

 

[Voriof]

As I understand it, Humakt broke his ties of kinship and no longer recognises Orlanth as his brother. He does, however, recognise Orlanth as rightful ruler of the Storm Tribe, of which he is still a member.

Excellent explanation. Thanks. And no, much of that did not make it into the description. Its hard to cover a lot of ground when you've set yourself a limit of <500 words per cult. However, I suspect that any region specific books or adventures might have long-description cult writeups. Little tidbits like these would be perfect or as small flavour-text boxes in the ms as were seen in Glorantha: the Second Age.

Voriof

 

[Voriof]

Oh, one other thing: The Orlanth cult is divided into several different types Aspects. Do they work as assosiated cults for eachother? Can they get spells from eachother?

You can join several different versions of the cult as an initiate - certainly this is the intent with Orlanth the Ruler and Orlanth Dragonslayer. These cults do not provide enough magic on their own to be viable.

The various Orlanth cults have an extensive array of associated magic which they provide to the other cults as noted in the Associated Cults writeup. This is one way that the very cool/signature Vingan "Pathfinder" spell can be learned by non-females. In the late 3rd Age this spell has fallen out of use.

Voriof

 

[Trifletraxor]

Oh, one other thing: The Orlanth cult is divided into several different types Aspects. Do they work as assosiated cults for eachother? Can they get spells from eachother?

You can join several different versions of the cult as an initiate - certainly this is the intent with Orlanth the Ruler and Orlanth Dragonslayer. These cults do not provide enough magic on their own to be viable.

Voriof

That's a no? Are the different aspects treated as individual cults? I noticed some of the aspects where a bit low on spells. So a initiate of Orlanth Dragonslayer could not get spells from Orlanth Adventurous without intiating formally and paying an extra 10% income?

Good explanations for the Humakt situation.

SGL.

 

[Voriof]

That's a no? Are the different aspects treated as individual cults? I noticed some of the aspects where a bit low on spells. So a initiate of Orlanth Dragonslayer could not get spells from Orlanth Adventurous without intiating formally and paying an extra 10% income?

SGL.

Yes, they are individual cults. Remember, all cults are not created equal. In the case of something like Orlanth the Leader or Dragonslayer serve distinct social functions but are not large enough to support a great array of magic - its more of an add-on than a way of life.

Voriof

 

[homerjsinnott]

That's a no? Are the different aspects treated as individual cults? I noticed some of the aspects where a bit low on spells. So a initiate of Orlanth Dragonslayer could not get spells from Orlanth Adventurous without intiating formally and paying an extra 10% income?

SGL.

Yes, they are individual cults. Remember, all cults are not created equal. In the case of something like Orlanth the Leader or Dragonslayer serve distinct social functions but are not large enough to support a great array of magic - its more of an add-on than a way of life.

Voriof

This jarrs with me a lot. these aren't different gods they are aspects of the same god, would they have separate temples in the same town?

Surely what you would have is a core set of spells/values that all worshippers would get and then aspected spells/values of the orlanth you are dedicated to?

No-one would be restricted to praying or asking for help from a certain aspect of a deity, "sorry no you can't pray to Orlanth Cloudgiver, you are in Orlanth Rex for God's sake!"

I acn see that certain aspects might not be known in some areas or even restricted to a small area,"Orlanth the Herring Smoker".

Some aspects might be mutually exclusive Lawgiver and thief for instance but they are aspects of the same deity and could be used by the same person (Orlanth did why can't one of his worshippers?).

Having to pay the same price for joining two aspects of any God seems, well, wrong and hard on players.
I can see that it could be abused if there were no cost (in POW and money)

 

[weasel_fierce]

Can this be used for third age as well, or is it aimed at 2nd age ?

 

[Voriof]

Can this be used for third age as well, or is it aimed at 2nd age ?

I don't see any reason why many of the cults wouldn't still be around. The EWF cults such as the Storm Dragon, or the various God Learner schools and orders are extinct but most everyone else seems more-or-less intact.

Edit: I shall have to wait till I have a copy of the book before I can answer questions based on what was printed as changes to the manuscript were made during editing (Humakt, frex).

Voriof

 

[Exubae]

Trifletraxor have you used the cult book in anger yet, i.e. char-gen and play.
How well are the cults balanced, is everyone going to gravitate to Humakt or Yemalio? or does the new set up take the teeth out of some of the gods?

 

[simonh]

This jarrs with me a lot. these aren't different gods they are aspects of the same god, would they have separate temples in the same town?

All this IMHO, but it will depend on the situation. In many cases, they will use the same temple, but perhaps with a separate shrine within it. Dedicated temples to the specialist aspects will exist though, for example some aspects are specialy popular in certain tribes or clans.

Surely what you would have is a core set of spells/values that all worshippers would get and then aspected spells/values of the orlanth you are dedicated to?

No-one would be restricted to praying or asking for help from a certain aspect of a deity, "sorry no you can't pray to Orlanth Cloudgiver, you are in Orlanth Rex for God's sake!"

I disagree, I think to get the benefits of an aspect you need to pay the price. Being a member of a specialist cult as well or instead of a main aspect is unusual and generaly restricted to the fervently religious, or even fanatical.

Some aspects might be mutually exclusive Lawgiver and thief for instance but they are aspects of the same deity and could be used by the same person (Orlanth did why can't one of his worshippers?).

Because he's one of the Great Gods, a fundamental lynch pin of nature, and you're just a miserable little mortal.

One point is that some of the aspects represent Orlanth in different stages of his myths. He was not all of these things, at every stage of his myth cycle, so why expect a human to be able to do it all at once? Having said that though, perhaps there should be some mechanism to transfer from one aspect to another. This would be particularly appropriate to some of the earth goddesses, where a woman would naturally transfer through the Maiden->Mother->Crone aspects during her life.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

This jarrs with me a lot. these aren't different gods they are aspects of the same god, would they have separate temples in the same town?

Maybe - How many churches do you have in your town? (Anglican, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, United Reform etc etc)

Surely what you would have is a core set of spells/values that all worshippers would get and then aspected spells/values of the orlanth you are dedicated to?

No-one would be restricted to praying or asking for help from a certain aspect of a deity, "sorry no you can't pray to Orlanth Cloudgiver, you are in Orlanth Rex for God's sake!"

Again, this may not be true. Just because you worship different aspects of the same god is no guarantee of friendship, or that youe worship/rites will be welcome in another temple (Look how well the worshippers of God/Allah/YHWH co-operate. Come to that, look at the friendship currently being shown between Sunni and Shi'ite in Iraq, or between Catholic and Protestant christians in 1970's Northern Ireland or Tudor Britain). (Yes all of these also have political aspects, but I'm sure the same will be true of many of the ORlanthi sects too)

 

[elgrin]

As I am picking my copy of 'Cults' up after work today and so have not yet seen it, I am relying on this thread for inspiration here.
I can see that there would be a type of player who would take advantage of the situation if there were effectively 'free' spells available just for the picking, but similarly the antipathy for some of the aspects of a single diety would be less than for others, from the viewpoint of a given aspect. I can see a position where a variable tariff will apply in any campaign I run. Free access if the aspects are particularly close, 5% thithe if there are some areas of disagreement, and the full requirement if the aspects just do not sit well together.
While I accept the designer's reasoning on this, I wonder if this feels like a sensible compromise to avoid over-penalising the players who prefer the less well known aspects of the deity.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Trifletraxor have you used the cult book in anger yet, i.e. char-gen and play.
How well are the cults balanced, is everyone going to gravitate to Humakt or Yemalio? or does the new set up take the teeth out of some of the gods?

Haven't used the book yet, as I'm still working to houserule the core system. Just playing RQ3 and Cthulhu in the meantime. I'm on holiday for a week now, without the Cults book, so I can't give good answer there. From what I remember, the warrior cults will probably still be preferred by most players as they have the best spell-access. Not that much change.

elgrin what's your opinion?

SGL.