Some critical words about the companion preview

[Enpeze]

I just read the companion preview.
Well hm....lets see:

-divine magic: MRQ seems to have the same or at least a very similar system to RQ3. I was never fond of the system with its temple sizes and spell POW sacrifices. But now: money?! Why? I reminds me a little bit of D&D where cou can use money for becoming more powerful.

The preview how to get divine magic is contrary to the way I see religions and getting magic from them. In my understanding each cult has its own requirements for giving magic to members. This requirements should mirror how the cult views the world. So cult magic requires donations in some cases, some requires quests, high social standing, some give magic only to transvestite temple cleaners etc.

I would have preferred a divine magic system which encourages to roleplay the character according to his religion instead just of giving money like in a shop!

Maybe I see the money as "abstract currency" which is can be easily interchanged with more cult specific things like good deeds and/or quests. (similar to "aalm" of talislanta or chaos/law points in stormbringer 5th ed.)

Now....sorcery...
Again sorcery seems to be the same like RQ3. While I always thought the RQ3 sorcery system had much theoretical potential, it was too complex to be usable in the gaming practice.

I am a little bit concerned about the fact that EACH spell has to be a single skill. This was not good in RQ3, why should it be good now? I mean which logic has it, if it costs the same time and energy to master a single spell than to master a skill like read/write or sword combat. Very odd.

 

[waiwode]

So change stuff.

Grant Divine Magic in exchange for mighty deeds done in the Temple's name, or for fulfilling quests the Temple has offered.

Heck, save a bunch of Chalana Arroy initiates threatened by Broo, and have the Chalana Arroy Temple grant your character a Divine healing spell even though the character isn't a devotee, initiate, or whatever. It's a one-shot, it isn't going to bring the temple walls down, and even your big mean tough Troll Zoran Zorak Initiate (or whatever) might want to heal someone once.

Individual Sorcery skills annoy you? Break the spells into several colleges, and just run skills in the colleges. The "Elder Scrolls" solution, if you will. That pisses you off too much? Just run one single Sorcery skill, and then step back, because there'll be a magical hurricane comeing through soon.

Doug.

 

[Enpeze]

So change stuff.

Grant Divine Magic in exchange for mighty deeds done in the Temple's name, or for fulfilling quests the Temple has offered.

Heck, save a bunch of Chalana Arroy initiates threatened by Broo, and have the Chalana Arroy Temple grant your character a Divine healing spell even though the character isn't a devotee, initiate, or whatever. It's a one-shot, it isn't going to bring the temple walls down, and even your big mean tough Troll Zoran Zorak Initiate (or whatever) might want to heal someone once.

Individual Sorcery skills annoy you? Break the spells into several colleges, and just run skills in the colleges. The "Elder Scrolls" solution, if you will. That pisses you off too much? Just run one single Sorcery skill, and then step back, because there'll be a magical hurricane comeing through soon.

Doug.

Of course I can do these things by myself as I have done the last years. But I am buying a RP system for using it, not for spending much time to redesign it.

 

[waiwode]

Of course I can do these things by myself as I have done the last years. But I am buying a RP system for using it, not for spending much time to redesign it.

Granted.

That being said, the changes described above would take about as much time to change as ... reading this thread. It's not like I'm advocating changing the equipment list so that prices accurately reflect 11th c French tax rolls. That would be some work!

Doug.

 

[andakitty]

I too have commented that I didn't want to have to houserule the new game, but just have something to pick up and play. This looks OK, what I had in mind was converting the Conan rpg to BRP or some such. Just looking at the list of feats put me off that. I'll be just fine adjusting this magic system. Just one or two little tweaks, maybe...

 

[Mac V]

Plus, I'm guessing that from the release on, the new issues of S&P will probably cover this sort of thing....

 

[andakitty]

Speaking of which, I wonder when that will be coming out? I suppose it will be loaded with RQ stuff.

 

[atgxtg]

I've mentioned this before, but the compnaion preview is cofrming many of my worst fears about MRQ. It look like they are going to spread out "basic" RQ info throughout several book in order to make more $$$.

I could accept that if it wasn't for all the "everything you need to play is inclduing in the core book" comments. In my experience the only games that claim to have "eyerything you need to play" are the ones that don't have it.

For example, there are only FOUR backgrounds for characters in the core book (peasant, townsman, barbarian, and noble). That simly ins't enough to warrant the "complete game" boasts. Considering that the entire "Backgrounds & Professions" section in the RQ Companion is only 6 pages long, and that professions determine what advanced skills a character can take, then these six pages should have been part of the core book. Esepically one where they held the book back to add another 20 pages.

I get the feeling that MRQ is a shake-down. :x

Just how many books (and dollars) is is going to take to be able to write up a character like I can do with the RQ3 Player's Book? :?

 

[waiwode]

Houserules.

Reading a lot of threads here, I see a lot of "well, I don't like the way it does this."

Here's the thing. RQ is an old game, many of us have a bunch of experience(s) with it. Most of us here have some sort of expectations for the new RQ. It isn't going to be enough that it's big and shiney ... it'll have to come in exactly the right colour to please us.

We, the fans, all have our own opinions on what that colour should be.

I'm not advocating tons and tons of house rules. I'm just saying that if we like the big and shiney thing, why sweat the colour? Here's a paint-brush, touch it up how you like, and let's get on with playing.

Doug.

 

[RMS]

I just read the companion preview.
Well hm....lets see:

-divine magic: MRQ seems to have the same or at least a very similar system to RQ3. I was never fond of the system with its temple sizes and spell POW sacrifices. But now: money?! Why? I reminds me a little bit of D&D where cou can use money for becoming more powerful.

I was never fond of the temple size-direct spell tie either, but it's easy to ignore. I always took the writeup in RQ3 to be a guide. Individual shrines will have access to some powerful magics, but not all. I like the money part. In RQ3, spells were way too cheap to come by in comparison with everything else. More below on this though.

The preview how to get divine magic is contrary to the way I see religions and getting magic from them. In my understanding each cult has its own requirements for giving magic to members. This requirements should mirror how the cult views the world. So cult magic requires donations in some cases, some requires quests, high social standing, some give magic only to transvestite temple cleaners etc.

I would have preferred a divine magic system which encourages to roleplay the character according to his religion instead just of giving money like in a shop!

My take on this is (and has been) that the money costs are what a casual follower would need to be allowed to learn the spells: someone who's a follower, but isn't doing great/important deeds for the religion. It was very common in RQ2/3 to grant access to magic as part of the rewards for doing something important for the cult, and there's nothing here that would prevent that. Just toss out the money part and substitute cult work, etc. It's not reasonible to expect them to write this out for every single case. A single table with a quick summary of how to go about things outside of active roleplay is reasonable. Anything else would depend on the situation and couldn't really be put in an isolated rulesbook anyway.

Maybe I see the money as "abstract currency" which is can be easily interchanged with more cult specific things like good deeds and/or quests. (similar to "aalm" of talislanta or chaos/law points in stormbringer 5th ed.)

There you go.

Now....sorcery...
Again sorcery seems to be the same like RQ3. While I always thought the RQ3 sorcery system had much theoretical potential, it was too complex to be usable in the gaming practice.

RQ3 sorcery wasn't complex at all IMO. It was just broken. It wouldn't take much at all to make it into a very workable system.

I am a little bit concerned about the fact that EACH spell has to be a single skill. This was not good in RQ3, why should it be good now? I mean which logic has it, if it costs the same time and energy to master a single spell than to master a skill like read/write or sword combat. Very odd.

I like it. That wasn't what was broken in RQ3 IMO, so I don't know why it would be a problem now. It makes a lot of sense. Plus, in RQ using skills makes them go up, so it's not like you have decide which skill to spend your XP on. It would seem to me like a single spell would encompass far more effort to learn than something basic like sword.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

I am a little bit concerned about the fact that EACH spell has to be a single skill. This was not good in RQ3, why should it be good now? I mean which logic has it, if it costs the same time and energy to master a single spell than to master a skill like read/write or sword combat. Very odd.

I like it. That wasn't what was broken in RQ3 IMO, so I don't know why it would be a problem now. It makes a lot of sense. Plus, in RQ using skills makes them go up, so it's not like you have decide which skill to spend your XP on. It would seem to me like a single spell would encompass far more effort to learn than something basic like sword.

Spot on.

There's different weapons, different languages, different crafts, different lores, different musical instruments, and different sorcery spells.

And yes, RQ sorcery is supposed to be a scientific/learned study of magic, so it's appropriate that it be treated this way.

 

[atgxtg]

Houserules.

Reading a lot of threads here, I see a lot of "well, I don't like the way it does this."

Here's the thing. RQ is an old game, many of us have a bunch of experience(s) with it. Most of us here have some sort of expectations for the new RQ. It isn't going to be enough that it's big and shiney ... it'll have to come in exactly the right colour to please us.

We, the fans, all have our own opinions on what that colour should be.

I'm not advocating tons and tons of house rules. I'm just saying that if we like the big and shiney thing, why sweat the colour? Here's a paint-brush, touch it up how you like, and let's get on with playing.

Doug.

Except the analogy is more like having a decent house already, and then having some contractors come in and change things, knock down walls, add things, throw some stuff into a differenrt house, but without actually imrpoving anything. So, why go through the trouble of repainteing it and doing touch ups when you can save yousrself the mney and not make the changes to the house in the first place.

I've seen several changes, but no improvements over RQ2 or RQ3.

So far, the only reason I can see for people to buy MRQ is so that Mongoose can make money. That's a big plus for Mongoose, but I don't see how it is a plus for the RQ gamers.

What's in it for us? Why should we shell out our cash for MRQ? What are we missing out on if we don't buy the new books?

That's my take on this, am I'm a RQ fan. I'm buying the core book out of name recognition. I can't even imagine what the draw is going to be for non-RQers.

 

[SteveMND]

With regards to the cash-for-divine-magic comments. Honestly, I never considered that sort of stuff part of the "rules" in any game system.

If anything, it's a rough guide to about how much such a service or gift is worth. But that sort of stuff is all dependant on the GM and the type of campaign he's running.

If the characters are in some metropolis where the high priest of SoAndSo is a stickler for routine and require cash on the barrelhead, well, fine. But by the same token, if the characters are at soem other temple, and requires two weeks of fasting for the same spell, fine. or maybe another temple would require the character to hunt down and bring in a noted enemy of the temple.

But regardless, that sort of stuff is all dependant on the campaign.

I was never fond of the temple size-direct spell tie either

Actually, that guideline works for me (I consider stuff like that to be part of the campaign structure just like cash payments are a rough guidelines, but subject to the way the campaign dictates).

When you become a lord or priest, such restrictions aren't necessary, but until then, as a mere initiate, you are assumed to have to deal with senior priests, etc. The larger the temple, the more likely it is to find a priest of sufficient ability who is willing to help you with getting the divine magic.

One of the things I always liked about RQ churches and cults were that they were very much community-oriented.

 

[Chardros The Reaper]

I personally don't mind the way divine and sorcerey spells seem to work. It actually makes sense to me that churches would charge even initiates to teach spells which not only require time but perhaps material goods. Churches in our own history tithed the hell out of members and laity...actually, you could buy your way out of hell with enough money! So this works for me.

I also think it makes sense for each sorcery spell to be it's own skill. Each weapon has it's own skill, why not each spell. This is something that's always bugged me a bit about Stormbringer 5th edition and even Cthulhu. Magic just shouldn't automatically happen, it should be a little difficult.

Now, having to buy several books to have an actual core game does bother me a bit, but I fell for it with D&D so why not once more? At least this time it will most likely be cheaper. From what I see you'll need to core book, the companion, and monsters when it comes out. Unless you want to run in Glorantha (I'm not sold on it) that's all you need. Not that bad, really.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

What's in it for us? Why should we shell out our cash for MRQ? What are we missing out on if we don't buy the new books?

The Imperial Age of Glorantha.

Lankhmar.

The other settings that follow.

I'm not trying to be glib, here. If you don't think those are interesting settings that you'll want to read about and explore in your games, well, then maybe the new edition isn't for you - if you're not wowed by the rules enough to use them elsewhere. But you ask what you're missing out on if you don't buy the new books? You ask what's in it for you?

The Imperial Age of Glorantha and Lankhmar, goshdarnit. That's what's going to appeal to a lot of people, and rightly so.

That's my take on this, am I'm a RQ fan. I'm buying the core book out of name recognition. I can't even imagine what the draw is going to be for non-RQers.

Simple enough. A lot of people will discover RuneQuest for the first time through this edition, and they'll like it a lot. They'll be just as valid fans and customers as diehards and veterans. Obviously, we want to appeal to both.

Here's my take on this. Although I get a lot of joy out of talking with RuneQuest veterans who remind me they've been playing longer than I've been alive (and I do, as it helps my perspective), I'm really looking forward to talking with people who are drawn into RuneQuest by the richness and awesomeness of the Gloranthan Second Age, Lankhmar, and a rule system that is new and efficient to them as new RQ'ers.

 

[SteveMND]

The Imperial Age of Glorantha and Lankhmar, goshdarnit. That's what's going to appeal to a lot of people, and rightly so.

Here's another selling point for many people: it's a system that's going to be in print.

I'm a big fan of RQIII, and I'm just tickled that I kept all my old books I used to have, because finding them now would be a bitch. And RQII? Oh lord, I wouldn't even know where to find copies of that stuff aside from the incredibly rare appearance on eBay.

Heck, I'm not even sold on MRQ yet, but if I do end up getting it and running a campaign with it, one of the major selling points is that I can tell my players where they can get copies of the books and such down at the local FLGS, as opposed to seven people trying to share the one copy I have.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

The Imperial Age of Glorantha and Lankhmar, goshdarnit. That's what's going to appeal to a lot of people, and rightly so.

Here's another selling point for many people: it's a system that's going to be in print.

I'm a big fan of RQIII, and I'm just tickled that I kept all my old books I used to have, because finding them now would be a bitch. And RQII? Oh lord, I wouldn't even know where to find copies of that stuff aside from the incredibly rare appearance on eBay.

Heck, I'm not even sold on MRQ yet, but if I do end up getting it and running a campaign with it, one of the major selling points is that I can tell my players where they can get copies of the books and such down at the local FLGS, as opposed to seven people trying to share the one copy I have.

Good point, that.

 

[atgxtg]

What's in it for us? Why should we shell out our cash for MRQ? What are we missing out on if we don't buy the new books?

The Imperial Age of Glorantha.

Lankhmar.

The other settings that follow.

I'm not trying to be glib, here. If you don't think those are interesting settings that you'll want to read about and explore in your games, well, then maybe the new edition isn't for you - if you're not wowed by the rules enough to use them elsewhere. But you ask what you're missing out on if you don't buy the new books? You ask what's in it for you?

I'm not considering your statements glib at all. I asked a question, and you are answering it. Seems fair to me.

In regard to your answer: Oh, is that all? What about the game system? THe settings you mentionted have similarities to MRQ, in that they have been in print befofre for other RPGs. Okay 2nd age Glorantha isn't 3rd age Glorantha, but it is still GLorantha. Lahkmar has been around in RPG ciricles for decades.

If I was really keen on either of those two settings, and I'm not (I'd rather see 3rd age Gloranthan stuff and never found Lankhmar appealing), why buy the new core rules? Just buy the settings. It's not very promising when the best reason to buy a book is something that isn't in that book but something that will be in the 3rd or 5th book coming out.

THe "Why should I buy this game book" thought is going to be the one on the minds of everyone who sees the book on August 7th. The diehard RQers are just going to be the only guarenteed sales (I've pre-ordered and prepaid for my books.

That's my take on this, am I'm a RQ fan. I'm buying the core book out of name recognition. I can't even imagine what the draw is going to be for non-RQers.

Simple enough. A lot of people will discover RuneQuest for the first time through this edition, and they'll like it a lot. They'll be just as valid fans and customers as diehards and veterans. Obviously, we want to appeal to both.

They will? Why? You sound so conviced that lots of people are going to like this game a lot, but I can't see any reason for this justifcation. RPGs are realsed each year. Most are not very successful. Those that are have things that make them appealing. Things other than a setting book that is going to be relaeased at a future date.

Here's my take on this. Although I get a lot of joy out of talking with RuneQuest veterans who remind me they've been playing longer than I've been alive (and I do, as it helps my perspective), I'm really looking forward to talking with people who are drawn into RuneQuest by the richness and awesomeness of the Gloranthan Second Age, Lankhmar, and a rule system that is new and efficient to them as new RQ'ers.

Good Luck. I hope that happens for you. It does sort of confirm my impression that MRQ isn't RQ, but just a rpg produced by a company with permission to use the RuneQuest name. Mongoose could have just called it the "Mongoose Role-Playing Game".

 

[atgxtg]

Here's another selling point for many people: it's a system that's going to be in print.

That's the best argument I've heard so far. But that all depends on if we get "sold" on the new system.

So far the "Sell" for MRQ is nowhere near the sell for RQ3. In fact, it just look like MOngoose wants to try and save a few buck for the D20 OGL liscense and produce thier own game system. Most of the changes in MRQ appeaer to tailor to the D&D player rather than the RQ player.

 

[andakitty]

Oh, come on, atg. It is RQ and it isn't at the same time. Shoot, I want it just because it is similar to BRP. Fresh blood. I LOVE the fact that a game will be in print that I can buy new stuff for. Maybe lots. And its a 'new' game, which means I may find it easier to entice younger players into the fold. What some are perceiveng as weakness may prove to be strength.