Some critical words about the companion preview

[Dead Blue Clown]

In regard to your answer: Oh, is that all? What about the game system? THe settings you mentionted have similarities to MRQ, in that they have been in print befofre for other RPGs. Okay 2nd age Glorantha isn't 3rd age Glorantha, but it is still GLorantha. Lahkmar has been around in RPG ciricles for decades.

I see your point. It's a valid one, but it has holes. (Hell, doesn't everyone's?)

The game system is a great one. For some folks it'll be too similar to previous editions of RuneQuest, others will be discovering it for the first time, and for others it'll be a different beast from any previous editions which will turn them off, though once all the rules are out I find the latter a lot harder to believe. It'll happen, but I think it's the least valid stance in my eyes.

This reboot and reissue represents too many words with "re" at the front, but also a living, breathing game line that will see a wealth of support. That matters to a lot of folks. New stuff coming out every month is a big plus for lots of gamers. It's a rule system that I imagine a lot of people are going to like, just as people have rated RuneQuest highly in all its previous incarnations. That covers the game system. And the settings?

The frequent releases deal with a previously unpublished era of Glorantha, and it's one with a lot of freaking awesome jazz going on. It'll float a lot of boats, hopefully among both the veteran and first steps demographics. Some will love it, others hate it, but it'll appeal to some people who will get into it, either because it's Glorantha and they've never experienced the setting before, or it's the Age of Empires and they've always been curious about it.

Lankhmar has indeed been around for ages. However, it's tied to a dead game system and has seen no releases in, what, 10? 15? years. People can still play it, and more power to them. However, I don't think it's unfair to say that not many people do, because AD&D is long-dead and sees fewer players every year, and the Lankhmar presented by AD&D was, to be blunt, a bit shit. The book itself wasn't bad, but the mesh of AD&D rules and the Nehwon setting were pretty awful, completely failing to represent the gritty fantasy Leiber gave to the world. RuneQuest won't fail at that - at least, so goes the plan. The rules alone have a much closer tie than to the source material than AD&D ever did. Now it's just down to the poor sucker writing it.

A new rule set and a new campaign setting book for Lankhmar is a pretty exciting notion to fans of Lankhmar who don't play the dead game version, haven't seen the out-of-print book on sale in years, never liked the way AD&D dealt with the tone and physics of the setting, or will simply discover it for the first time. That's not a small demographic of Lankhmar/RPG fans, I'll warrant. That's a chunk of them. I'll bet even the rare diehards who still play the AD&D version will prick up their ears just to check out the new stuff, maybe to buy it and enjoy the crap out of it, maybe to decide the old ways works best for them. But the option is there.

If I was really keen on either of those two settings, and I'm not (I'd rather see 3rd age Gloranthan stuff and never found Lankhmar appealing), why buy the new core rules? Just buy the settings. It's not very promising when the best reason to buy a book is something that isn't in that book but something that will be in the 3rd or 5th book coming out.

I don't really get this part. I like the Forgotten Realms and DragonLance. But I still bought the main D&D rulebooks. I mean, I had to, in order to play the settings I liked. I never really saw that as a bad thing. If you like the settings that are coming out and are perfectly happy with RuneQuest as it is to use as a general fantasy system in any of your own campaigns and settings, you should be golden. If you don't like the settings (as you've said) and are already happy with previous editions of RuneQuest, then you're right, there is little incentive to buy any of it.

My problem with your argument is that you make every single possible case for not being the target demographic, then ask me "Well? What's in it for me?" Um, nothin'. De nada. You're the very antithesis of the target demographic. You like the old rules and aren't sold on (the snippets you've seen of) the new rules, and you don't like the new settings. Well...what else is there in an RPG than rules and a setting? The target demographic is large and very encompassing, but from what I understand, your tastes and opinions set you as far from it as you can get.

Note that I don't say that's a bad thing. Everyone's opinions make that happen.

They will? Why? You sound so conviced that lots of people are going to like this game a lot, but I can't see any reason for this justifcation. RPGs are realsed each year. Most are not very successful. Those that are have things that make them appealing. Things other than a setting book that is going to be relaeased at a future date.

Here's what's appealing, even without the setting books. It's RuneQuest. It's a new edition of RuneQuest. It's a good rule system. You can use it for personal settings or other published settings.

Now, you might not agree with that, but don't you see how these facts will appeal to other people? And this is without the setting books, which, incidentally, are no small part of the appeal.

EDIT: You can say "It's just a..." with anything. It's not just an RPG. It's a new edition of one of the traditional heavy-hitters in the hobby, and you can use it with the published settings which will appeal to a lot of people, homebrew worlds, or other campaigns. "It's just a film, loads fail all the time" or "It's just a book, loads fail all the time" don't work because sometimes the answers are "It's not just a film, it's The Shawshank Redemption/Spider-Man/Lord of the Rings."

Good Luck. I hope that happens for you. It does sort of confirm my impression that MRQ isn't RQ, but just a rpg produced by a company with permission to use the RuneQuest name. Mongoose could have just called it the "Mongoose Role-Playing Game".

I don't see it that way and I doubt most people will. I do see it being a criticism that will be levelled by non-fans in the future, but this was always going to be a fight MRQ would never win with some people. If they'd changed nothing or made minor changes, it wouldn't be a new edition. If they make any significant changes at all, it's just Mongoose tinkering around with a new system and calling it RuneQuest. I have no answer to this argument because I don't really see any validity in it.

You're coming at it with a passion for the old rules, seeing changes you don't like in the new rules, and with an established dislike of all the settings. Well...there's not much to say on that topic, really. When I feel that negatively about something, be it a book, a film or an RPG, I just don't buy it. I don't look for ways it 'should' appeal to me when there's so much I already dislike about it. I just see that it doesn't do it for me, and I either change my opinions with experience or I stick with them to the end. With some things it'll turn out I was wrong and reading it or seeing it will wow me in unexpected ways. For other things, I'll shake my head and say "I knew this would suck, and it does," but I always try to at least see why other people would like it...

...even for absolute bullshit things like Blade or X-Men.

 

[SteveMND]

What's in it for us? Why should we shell out our cash for MRQ?

The exact same reason you shell out cash for any game system, and the exact same reason you shelled out cash for your first RQ book, whenever that was: because you thought it was worth it.

When the final copy is out, and you feel the game is worth your hard-earned cash, buy it. If you don't feel it is worth your hard-earned cash, don't buy it. No more complicated that that. I'm not sure why people have to put some sort of messianic, world-changing importance onto this game.

No, it's not the same RQ as we saw in RQIII, or RQII. As mentioned almost a month ago, it can't be, as Mongoose doesn't have the rights to the BRP system that was a large part of those two previous games.

At the same time, it's also not RQ as we've seen in Herowars and Heroquest. That's because Mongoose also doesn't have the rights to that game system.

What they do have the rights to is the name, and the blessing of Stafford for the use of Glorantha. With that, they set out to create their own interpretation of what it means to be a "RuneQuest" game, because there was no way possible for them to create all of our collective interpretations of what it means to be a "RuneQuest" game...

Maybe some of us will like it. Maybe some of us won't. Either way, it's just a game, and the product of a bunch of people who worked very hard. i don't recall them ever saying their product will ever appeal to everyone, nor could it.

So why did they put out this game? They're a game company. It's what they do.

 

[andakitty]

Dead Blue Clown, you may be half my age, but you are a pretty smart guy. My main worry is that it will/will not appeal to younger players, and to be honest you give me more hope than the game itself.

I pretty much embody your target demographic. The rest? It depends on the game.

You better have lots of real pretty artwork in Glorantha and Lankhmar, though. And 'kewl powerz', that hopefully don't overpower the game otherwise.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

My main worry is that it will/will not appeal to younger players, and to be honest you give me more hope than the game itself.

I pretty much embody your target demographic. The rest? It depends on the game.

You better have lots of real pretty artwork in Glorantha and Lankhmar, though. And 'kewl powerz', that hopefully don't overpower the game otherwise.

I use "target demographic" like I'm some corporate-knowing guy, rather than a coffee-drinking writer with a Word.doc for Lankhmar open in another window and the very real desire to go to bed half an hour ago with his girlfriend.

In regards to the artwork, I was going to talk about this on my blog next update. I'm still new to Mongoose, so I'm getting to grips with all this, but Mongoose ask me for "art orders" with what I hand in, which is basically a list of what art you want in the book, and where you want it. I thought that was an awesome touch - I even got to describe the cover I wanted.

No choice over the artists, but the RuneQuest .pdf has some good art in it, and Conan line has some incredible pieces in it. I'm confident that they'll be dead purty.

It's the Second Age, though. 'Kewl Powerz' are going to be there. In my talk with Greg Stafford, he said a bunch of stuff that stuck in my head. One of these things (and I could almost hear this huge grin on his face as he said it) was in regards to the powers of various cultures over others: "Is this fair? Of course it's not fair. But they have it, the other guys don't, and that's how it goes."

I took a lot away from that conversation, foremost of which was a powerful desire to impress him with my stuff.

 

[Ravage]

As far as I see it, MRQ or any game system - including HQ - will only be successful if supplements come out, and come out quick and not be poor quality.

I've seen D&D (1st revision albeit) churn out facelss, worldless stuff, rq2 deliver a great setting, standardization and wonderful premiss, but equally for 20 odd years we got noting but trollpak releases and bad rehashes.

Take white wolf and Vampire - again - perhaps I ditched too quickly - but for the near on dozen supplements I bought not ONE was a scenario.

Whoa... Theres the crux: scenario.

Lets face it RQ2 rulebook sucked when it came to presenting Glorantha - it had two maps and 2 pages of history pretty much.

RQ3.. well, I'd argue it spent too long producing reprints of rq2 material rather than getting to new grounds.

We all know Pavis and Griffin mountain were the best in-situ and decribed places in a role-playing society that make them the crux of glorantha people still play in. I cant speak for the HQ sartar rising series as I'm a player and not able to read that material - but rest assured my characaters severely questioning wondering around 2 foot full snow parks than his beloved dust-bowl Pavis!

Frankly, rules are rules, and we'll always argue on them. But for me.... the fabric and sinyew of this new version is scenarios.

I cant wait personally: Mongoose seem commited to a productive period of supplements to get the game going. I for one, and perhaps with an open-license system might feel provoked to submit new material will benefit us all! Scenarios are needed frankly for a kiss-me-quick culture that this forum so-far doesnt have subscribers to. we're all die-hards, get our mitts filthy for the re-ascent of Glorantha (yes, I'm sure everyone whose here wants this to be a success, but equally expects MRQ to be a placebo pleasing everyone: no hoep dudes - we'll never all be saitisfied!

But your common man will want: 1. Glorantha sourcebook, 2. localized environment (i.,e like Pavis was for RQ2). and 3. scenarios off the shelf. 70-90% of new GMs surely wil be looking for a quick win if they havent already met Glornatha... SO thats whats important. the ins-and-outs of sorcery? Hell, I've never met anyone from day 1 who liked rq3's version!

Now, hehe, give me the kiss-me-quick... email me PDFs of the rulkes and whats done so far and I'll start producing game scenario content that can put Gloranthan content in the mix and not let it be a stagnant source-only thing... or is that a cheap-shot to just get the game system pre-release Hardly seeing I've prepaid for everything on this years release schedule...

Rest assurred, I am descending on Continuum '06 in a weeks time to extract my pound of flesh, see and glean what I can of this system and indeed, get a feel for 2nd age mongoose Glorantha - cos I WANT to be a part of the next generation RQ - and no... not just a name.

Anyhow, Roll on the 2nd age!

Dom

 

[Urox]

But now: money?! Why? I reminds me a little bit of D&D where cou can use money for becoming more powerful.

One of the coolest features of RQ2 (which is when I started) is that you could convert your spare Lunars into skill points. This was a great motivation to adventure.

Here's my take on this. Although I get a lot of joy out of talking with RuneQuest veterans who remind me they've been playing longer than I've been alive (and I do, as it helps my perspective), I'm really looking forward to talking with people who are drawn into RuneQuest by the richness and awesomeness of the Gloranthan Second Age, Lankhmar, and a rule system that is new and efficient to them as new RQ'ers.

You are missing a little of the point here, and this is probably because you grew up with third generation RPGs. One of the key features of RuneQuest is that the system reflected the setting -- the rules were designed to reflect the innate nature of Glorantha.

Now new rules to cover The Second Age is fine -- but, making a generic system and then giving Gloranthan source material risks losing "the magic" of RQ.

You mention Lhankmar -- will Rune Magic exist there? That would seem pretty off-base, as the runes are uniquely Gloranthan...

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

You are missing a little of the point here, and this is probably because you grew up with third generation RPGs. One of the key features of RuneQuest is that the system reflected the setting -- the rules were designed to reflect the innate nature of Glorantha.

Now new rules to cover The Second Age is fine -- but, making a generic system and then giving Gloranthan source material risks losing "the magic" of RQ.

No, I get that. I mean, I'm not a complete plum. I get the age thing to a certain extent, but there's a risk of generalising and making assumptions on that score. I know that rules reflecting the setting is a part of RuneQuest's (and Glorantha's) appeal, but that's an important factor in many, many RPGs, both in the past and in the modern industry. Good rules should always reflect the setting, with Call of Cthulhu being probably my favourite example of this and the new World of Darkness following a close second.

In all seriousness, I see your point and it's a valid one. But still, I think some of the critics and guarded onlookers will be pleasantly surprised by the way the new system plays out in the Gloranthan setting, how it applies to others, and the overall changes in the rules.

You can't please eveyone, and die hard fans are often the hardest to convince (you should see me frothing at the mouth at the goddamn pre-ruined Transformers movie and the eye rolls I get from my girlfriend) but there's a touch of 'sacred cow-ism' at play in some angles right now. The burden of proof is on the game, its designers and its writers, and I understand that perfectly. But on the flip side of the coin, some people are out to remain unconvinced and be vocal about that fact, looking for any and all excuses they can to keep it up. Such is the nature of any fanbase. I defy anyone reading these words to admit they've never, ever done it themselves.

You mention Lhankmar -- will Rune Magic exist there? That would seem pretty off-base, as the runes are uniquely Gloranthan...

I don't think anyone would argue for Rune Magic to feature in Lankhmar. That's where the other RuneQuest magic systems come into play, and the fact that magic is so different and understated in the Swords novels anyway.

EDIT: Bear in mind that other MRQ settings will have unique aspects of their own. Conan wasn't straight D&D, f'rex. Lankhmar won't have Zistorite God Learners defending the Machine City with lightning bolts.

I'd have to be a world-class bonehead to write runes into it. I am not, to my knowledge, a world-class bonehead. I'm always open to debate on that matter, however.

 

[atgxtg]

Oh, come on, atg. It is RQ and it isn't at the same time. Shoot, I want it just because it is similar to BRP. Fresh blood. I LOVE the fact that a game will be in print that I can buy new stuff for. Maybe lots. And its a 'new' game, which means I may find it easier to entice younger players into the fold. What some are perceiveng as weakness may prove to be strength.

Kitty, is it similar to BRP? Or are you just projecting your hopes onto what you have ssen so far. Very little of the actual RPG mechanics have been revealed in the MRQ previews. The new RPG is still very much an unknown.

Being in print is a wonderful thing. One reasonwhy I have 5-6 copies of the RPGs that I love is that those games are no longer in print. However, how happy I will be about a game being in print is dependant on if I like the game in the first place.

So far the changes I've seen hintd at in the previews don't do anything to improve the game, just changes to show that MRQ is a different edition (or, and this seems more likely, because Chaosium owns the RQ system).

 

[andakitty]

atg, that is a loaded question. Call it a very strong hunch based on what I can see. Three more weeks and you can call me an optimistic fool if I am being one. Right now that's how I am calling it, similar to BRP. Why not? Evidence supports the positive at least as much as the negative. Also, my expectations actually are not high. That is, the game only needs to be playable and customizable. And it has a percentile resolution system. These things are enough to remind me of BRP by themselves.

Urox, I never really thought that RQ needed to be entwined with Glorantha to be a palatable game. I know lots of other folks who agree with that. RQ3 made some OK changes and some not so great ones, but I have to disagree strongly that separating the game system from Glorantha was a bad decision. RQ, any edition, Stormbringer, CoC, Magic World, Elfquest were all good games that used the BRP system to one degree or another(as you already know) and it worked fine for each of them. In fact, CoC was the most successful of the lot, wasn't it? Not RQ.

 

[Enpeze]

Kitty, is it similar to BRP? Or are you just projecting your hopes onto what you have ssen so far. Very little of the actual RPG mechanics have been revealed in the MRQ previews. The new RPG is still very much an unknown.

Hm...in one post you think that MRQ is just a remake of RQ3 with 4 books and in another post you hint that MRQ is not BRP. Maybe you can post what your personal expectation of MRQ is? What should MRQ contain that you like it?

For example my expectation is that Mongoose streamlines the RQ2 or RQ3 rules to an extent that I can use them without having to worry about:

-bookkeeping Fatigue Points (yuck)

I expect also

- a easy to use and flexible character generation system, maybe similar to CoCs skillpoint system for example. (please no more RQ3 "barbarian fisherman")

-a streamlined magic system(s) What I have seen today in the preview did not fully convince me



-an easy to use task system with +-xx% for skill modifiers, (eg. task A is easy, so you have +20% modifier etc.)

-that they keep the "good" things which belong to the character of BRP. This means a certain degree of minimalism and things like deadliness, attack/parry/dodge, the stats, resistance table, Stat times x rolls, no need for XP (I am glad that the skill checks remained! )

I also expect that Mongoose present MRQ as a good quality product. (hardcover, fine artwork, good and very readable layout, at least partly colored pages, comparable to the excellent production value of WFRP2)

And I expect several settings I can choose to play. I would like to have a magic system for each setting which represents the magic in this world. So spiritmagic or divine magic for Lankhmar seems to me a very bad choice. Also sorcery, as it is now, seems not appopriate. So maybe a new type or variant of one of the existing magic systems.
The same is valid for conan. For this setting a CoC type of dark magic would be the best.

So far the changes I've seen hintd at in the previews don't do anything to improve the game,

I dont fully agree. I think the easier way fatigue is handled improves the game. I cannot say something about the other changes because I dont know much about MRQ at the moment.

Before I forget, I am curious about the new combat action system. (remember: up to 4 combat actions per turn...)

 

[atgxtg]

In regard to your answer: Oh, is that all? What about the game system? THe settings you mentionted have similarities to MRQ, in that they have been in print befofre for other RPGs. Okay 2nd age Glorantha isn't 3rd age Glorantha, but it is still GLorantha. Lahkmar has been around in RPG ciricles for decades.

I see your point. It's a valid one, but it has holes. (Hell, doesn't everyone's?)

The game system is a great one. For some folks it'll be too similar to previous editions of RuneQuest, others will be discovering it for the first time, and for others it'll be a different beast from any previous editions which will turn them off, though once all the rules are out I find the latter a lot harder to believe. It'll happen, but I think it's the least valid stance in my eyes.

Not having seen ther system yet, I can't tell if it is a great one or not. I do know that so far, there are only two things about MRQ that I liked-the "movement & maneuvering" stuff for combat, and Ken Hite's name on the design team. As far what I will think once all the rules are out, that is part of the problem. Just how many books will it take to cover "all the rules", system wise?

I don't mean EVERYTHING-I can see stuff being printed for specific settings (a lot of the Glorantha stuff isn't going to be needed for a more "generic" fantasy game), but how many books it is going to take to get the full rules? I've posted before that 4 professions in the core rule book simply doesn't cut it. I just don't want to wind up with a version of RQ that prints new rules in each supplment that expand, invalidate and superceed the core book. I don;'t want to see a series of elite profession books, slayer's gudes' to various RQ monsters and what not.

Lankhmar has indeed been around for ages. However, it's tied to a dead game system and has seen no releases in, what, 10? 15? years. People can still play it, and more power to them. However, I don't think it's unfair to say that not many people do, because AD&D is long-dead and sees fewer players every year, and the Lankhmar presented by AD&D was, to be blunt, a bit ****. The book itself wasn't bad, but the mesh of AD&D rules and the Nehwon setting were pretty awful, completely failing to represent the gritty fantasy Leiber gave to the world.

No argument there. AD&D Lankmar did't mesh well in either incarnation. You are preeching to the choir here. But to grasp my point contine on.

If I was really keen on either of those two settings, and I'm not (I'd rather see 3rd age Gloranthan stuff and never found Lankhmar appealing), why buy the new core rules? Just buy the settings. It's not very promising when the best reason to buy a book is something that isn't in that book but something that will be in the 3rd or 5th book coming out.

I don't really get this part. I like the Forgotten Realms and DragonLance. But I still bought the main D&D rulebooks.

Did you? Or did you already own the D&D book and bought Forgotten Realms and DragonLance as add ons toy uor D&D collection? THat's the point I'm striveg to get across here. If you already own an RPG, buying a new setting/supplmenet if one thing.

Buying a new RPG system, and one that is spread out over several books, so you can take advantage of a supplment is something else.

I mean, I had to, in order to play the settings I liked.

No, not really. Most gamers that I know who primaility play systems other than d20 have gotten into the habit of buying supplmenents for games they don't play and taking the stuff that they like from them.

I never really saw that as a bad thing. If you like the settings that are coming out and are perfectly happy with RuneQuest as it is to use as a general fantasy system in any of your own campaigns and settings, you should be golden. If you don't like the settings (as you've said) and are already happy with previous editions of RuneQuest, then you're right, there is little incentive to buy any of it.

My problem with your argument is that you make every single possible case for not being the target demographic, then ask me "Well? What's in it for me?" Um, nothin'. De nada. You're the very antithesis of the target demographic. You like the old rules and aren't sold on (the snippets you've seen of) the new rules, and you don't like the new settings. Well...what else is there in an RPG than rules and a setting? The target demographic is large and very encompassing, but from what I understand, your tastes and opinions set you as far from it as you can get.

Yeah, I agree with you. I don't seem to be in Mongooses's target demographic for MRQ at all. I figured they were targeting RQ players, hence the reason why they bought the RQ name. From what I have read so far, I'm thinking the target demographic is something else. If I knew just what sort of gamer Mongoose was targeting, I'd be able to confirm if I am in thier target range or not.

Note that I don't say that's a bad thing. Everyone's opinions make that happen.

No, it isn't It's not my fault for not being in the target demographic. Mongoose isn't at fault for not targeting "me" either. My convern is that that, I've already commited to buying two RPG books, but have yet to see anything about MRQ that invokes a "Wow!" or "Cool!" or some sort of positive reaction.

Here's what's appealing, even without the setting books. It's RuneQuest. It's a new edition of RuneQuest. It's a good rule system. You can use it for personal settings or other published settings.

Yeah, if it still IS RuneQuest. I am not so sure. I won't know until I see just what has been changed and how much. So many things have been changed with MRQ (strike ranks, improvement roll/hero points, advanced skills, the critical hit system) that I am unsure if the new game is a new member to the RQ family, or just borrowing the name-like RuneQuest Slayers

Now, you might not agree with that, but don't you see how these facts will appeal to other people? And this is without the setting books, which, incidentally, are no small part of the appeal.

No, because they are not facts, per say, but opinion. You say that it is RuneQuest and that it is a good rules system. Well, outside of the name (which has been legally liscened out, so THAT is a fact), the rest is just your opinion. Maybe you are right and hordes will flock to the stores to buy it upoff the shelves. Maybe not. That is your opinion, and you are centaily entited to it. But, if the MRQ is a good rule system is far from being proven as a fact.

You can say "It's just a..." with anything. It's not just an RPG. It's a new edition of one of the traditional heavy-hitters in the hobby, and you can use it with the published settings which will appeal to a lot of people, homebrew worlds, or other campaigns. "It's just a film, loads fail all the time" or "It's just a book, loads fail all the time" don't work because sometimes the answers are "It's not just a film, it's The Shawshank Redemption/Spider-Man/Lord of the Rings."

Yeah, you can say "it's just a..." with anything. I should have phased that differently. More along the lines of "Is this RuneQuest in more that just name?" Many great books and movies get remakes and sequels. As we all know the quality of the first film/book is no guanteee that remakes and sequels will be good. Especially when they are being done by third parties.

Sure, there will be those who love (or hate) the remake no matter what it is like, good or bad. Also, good or bad, those involved in the remake will believe that they have made a good product.

But so far, I'm getting a "New Coke" vibe out of MRQ.

I don't see it that way and I doubt most people will. I do see it being a criticism that will be levelled by non-fans in the future, but this was always going to be a fight MRQ would never win with some people. If they'd changed nothing or made minor changes, it wouldn't be a new edition. If they make any significant changes at all, it's just Mongoose tinkering around with a new system and calling it RuneQuest. I have no answer to this argument because I don't really see any validity in it.

THe validity to that point will be by how the players of previous edtions of RQ react to the game. If the bulk of RQers say it really is or isn't RuneQuest, that will be the proof.

You're coming at it with a passion for the old rules, seeing changes you don't like in the new rules, and with an established dislike of all the settings.

Nope. You misread me there. I don't have a established dislike of all the settings. I just don't fine the setting to have much appeal to me. THat's no problem, I don't have to buy or use those settings. THat is sort of why when I asked what is good about the new about the RuneQuest Rules, I didn't find a response centered on the setting as much incentive.

It isn't even so much a passion for the old rules and being opposed to change. It is that when I see something changed in a new edtion of a game, I expect there to be a reason for it. Either the change fixes a flaw, or makes some sort of attempt to improve the game. I also usually see the people behind the game exaplining why the change was made and to what ends. Chaosium did it with RQ3, WotC did it with 3E.

Mongoose hasn't said much about why certain rules were changed and for what benfit. So far the reason for all the changes appear to be due to Chaosium owning BRP, and a need to remove BRP stuff from the new RQ.

I want to know what are the sort of things that make MRQ better than RQ2 or RQ3. I don't need a detailed point calucation for something, or specfic details on something. Just some ideas on what we can do now with RQ that we couldn't before.

Well...there's not much to say on that topic, really. When I feel that negatively about something, be it a book, a film or an RPG, I just don't buy it. I don't look for ways it 'should' appeal to me when there's so much I already dislike about it. I just see that it doesn't do it for me, and I either change my opinions with experience or I stick with them to the end. With some things it'll turn out I was wrong and reading it or seeing it will wow me in unexpected ways. For other things, I'll shake my head and say "I knew this would suck, and it does," but I always try to at least see why other people would like it...

...even for absolute bullshit things like Blade or X-Men.

Me too. THat is part of my point of view here , too-even to the taste in movies. THere are a lot of RPGs that I don't buy because I don't like them, or even dislike them. One reason why I got interested in this game is becuase I do like RuneQuest. I like most of the variations and deratives of RuneQuest (the exceptions are Nephilim, Call of Cthulhu and Ringworld). I just wondering if I am going to like this one. It hasn't impressed me yet.

I have only seen a few pages of the new game though, that's why I was asking about the new game. [/i]

 

[andakitty]

Hey, Enpeze.

First of all, WHY are you wasting breath at the Conan forum? They just get more hostile and fearful. I don't think they have anything to worry about because I'm sure Mongoose knows not to mess a good deal up. They seem like fair minded guys to me (the Mongoose guys, anyway).

As for expectations of MRQ, haven't you looked at the previews? I think there is a lot we can say we know from them and hints dropped over the last few months. Such as

You can choose PC background,
There is a simple task system,
Mongoose went for a minimalist approach,
We have attack/parry/dodge as options,
We have the same stats,
No resistance tables (it looks like skills as saves..Resilience, Persistence),
No stat x type rolls (not sure about this, but they are going for as little math as possible, so...),
Maybe exp. , definitely Hero Pts., though how extensive they are used is a good question,

Probably a lot more, I am responding to your list here.

As for magic, I think I can parlay the Rune magic into a full magic system without much trouble. And I think it would fit Lankhmar pretty well.

Heh, you'll have to excuse me. I'm really looking forward to this.

 

[atgxtg]

atg, that is a loaded question. Call it a very strong hunch based on what I can see. Three more weeks and you can call me an optimistic fool if I am being one. Right now that's how I am calling it, similar to BRP. Why not? Evidence supports the positive at least as much as the negative. Also, my expectations actually are not high. That is, the game only needs to be playable and customizable. And it has a percentile resolution system. These things are enough to remind me of BRP by themselves.

Fair enough. My "hunch" is less optomistic. On August 7th we will both find out if either, neither, or both of our hunches are correct. I don't see the evidence as particularly negative or positive, just ambiguous.

Since every RPG is, to some extent, playable and customizable, you should find your expectations met.

My expectations are that the game be recogognizable RUneQuest, and that at least some of the changes, pereabley most of them, strike me as posibve or at least serving a game-related purpose.

So far, none of the changes I've seen seem to have much purpose behind them. Changing the battle/sprit magic to rune magic and creating a new spirit magic in the RQ companion might be for some reason. I just haven't read anything about one. Why did they do it? I don't know. I just like to know there is some sort of goal or purpose to these changes.

 

[RMS]

Mongoose hasn't said much about why certain rules were changed and for what benfit. So far the reason for all the changes appear to be due to Chaosium owning BRP, and a need to remove BRP stuff from the new RQ.

I've read this several times here and it is not correct. Game mechanics cannot be protected as intellectual property. Chaosium owns the name BRP and Mongoose owns (or is leasing?) RQ, but those are just names. However, the actual mechanics are pretty much free for anyone to use. Worst case, Mongoose would have needed to change some names and wording around, but the actual mechanics could have stayed the same.

I want to know what are the sort of things that make MRQ better than RQ2 or RQ3. I don't need a detailed point calucation for something, or specfic details on something. Just some ideas on what we can do now with RQ that we couldn't before.

The obvious thing, given all we know and don't know at this point, is that we can actually purchase it and that there's a plan to actively support the game. For many people, there's no hope of getting a RQ game going because players that aren't pretty old see it as an ancient game and won't even try it. Now it will be on the shelf and is new. I realize this isn't really what you were after, but it is clearly a big advantage to having RQ being released again.

Actually, Mongoose has been pretty upfront about their design goals with the new RQ: mainly in attempting to streamline play (combat) with less math and a core resolution mechanic (newer game design principle), while offering more options for players. Whether they've actually done this or not won't be clear until after we get a chance to read the full rules. The previews are just enough to keep us debating things which means they're quite successful previews.

 

[atgxtg]

Kitty, is it similar to BRP? Or are you just projecting your hopes onto what you have ssen so far. Very little of the actual RPG mechanics have been revealed in the MRQ previews. The new RPG is still very much an unknown.

Hm...in one post you think that MRQ is just a remake of RQ3 with 4 books and in another post you hint that MRQ is not BRP. Maybe you can post what your personal expectation of MRQ is? What should MRQ contain that you like it?

Let me claifity. I am cornceredn that MRQ will require the purchase on many more books to cover the same ground as RQ3, at a significanlty higher "real" cost. Most RPG systems cover certain things, character creation, rule mechanics, magic (for fantasy rpgs), animals and other creatures, etc. RQ3 did this with the Deluxe Edtition. MRQ gives all indications that it is going to take several books just to be able to role up a character like I could in RQ2 or RQ3. Four backgrounds in the core book? With 6 pages of options in the companion? Why not print it all in the core book?

Greed?

For example my expectation is that Mongoose streamlines the RQ2 or RQ3 rules to an extent that I can use them without having to worry about:

-bookkeeping Fatigue Points (yuck)

I expect also

- a easy to use and flexible character generation system, maybe similar to CoCs skillpoint system for example. (please no more RQ3 "barbarian fisherman")

I don't think you are going to get the "flexible" part of character generation. Not with four choices of backgrounds. If they are going to go with a CoC or Stormbringer style background skillpoint system, fine. That should obligate them to putting the variantey into those background choices that we see in CoC and Stormbinger-and not put the majoirty of character backgrounds in a companion book.

It looks to me like they are hamstringing the core rules so they can sell a comapnion book. I'd rather have seen a decent Playerr's Book with full character generation rules and a dedicated GM's book with the stuff on travel, econimcis, item creation, how to run the game.

-a streamlined magic system(s) What I have seen today in the preview did not fully convince me

-an easy to use task system with +-xx% for skill modifiers, (eg. task A is easy, so you have +20% modifier etc.)

-that they keep the "good" things which belong to the character of BRP. This means a certain degree of minimalism and things like deadliness, attack/parry/dodge, the stats, resistance table, Stat times x rolls, no need for XP (I am glad that the skill checks remained! )

I leave a seat for you open on my "boat" then. From what I read so far:

No streamlined magic system, no resistance table, and experience checks have been repalced with XP (Hero Points).

I also expect that Mongoose present MRQ as a good quality product. (hardcover, fine artwork, good and very readable layout, at least partly colored pages, comparable to the excellent production value of WFRP2)

If it is hardcover, I expect the pages not to fall out when I crack open the book (anyone who bought Games Workshop hardcovers of Strombringer know what I am taking about). Other than that, as long as the rules are legible, well layed out, and indexed I'd be happy. I don't care much for art in an RPG, or colored pages or the like. I want it clear and easy to find what I want when I have to look up something. THat way I can get back to playing the game. Artwork, IMO, is a wasteunless it has some sort of relaavence to the game-like illsustation or armor, or a map. Otheriwse, I think it is taking up space that could best of been served by something my players could actually use-like backgrounds, or more weapons, or falling damage.

And I expect several settings I can choose to play. I would like to have a magic system for each setting which represents the magic in this world. So spiritmagic or divine magic for Lankhmar seems to me a very bad choice. Also sorcery, as it is now, seems not appopriate. So maybe a new type or variant of one of the existing magic systems.
The same is valid for conan. For this setting a CoC type of dark magic would be the best

I'd be happy with one setting. I can always port over a differenrt setting or even create my own. Too many settings just means not enough support for whatever setting that I do like. Hopefully an OGL and third party support will allievate this potential problem. If Mongoose realses 10 settings, there will be people who will want supplements for each of thoise settings.

As for the magic, you will probably want the equivalent of RQ3's Ritual Magic. THat was what they used for all the summoning magics like the stuff that you see in CoC and Stormbringer. I suspect that might in in the Companion book.

So far the changes I've seen hintd at in the previews don't do anything to improve the game,

I dont fully agree. I think the easier way fatigue is handled improves the game. I cannot say something about the other changes because I dont know much about MRQ at the moment.[/quote]

I found RQ3 fatigue rules to be very easy to handle. Each round mark off a point on your character sheet. I found that very easy to handle. I also allowed for a lightly armored character to wear down a more heavilty armored foe. Still, while I found it easy, I wasn't very fond of it.

Before I forget, I am curious about the new combat action system. (remember: up to 4 combat actions per turn...)

Oh yeah, I forgot, you the one who wasn't familar with Rune Lords. RQ used to allow for splitting up attacks, as does Pendragon. You used to split up you skill amongst your targets, and so splitting attacks was something that most combatants avoided. I wonder if MRQ is sticking with this approach or doing something differenet. Maybe going the D&D route?[/i]

 

[atgxtg]

I've read this several times here and it is not correct. Game mechanics cannot be protected as intellectual property. Chaosium owns the name BRP and Mongoose owns (or is leasing?) RQ, but those are just names. However, the actual mechanics are pretty much free for anyone to use. Worst case, Mongoose would have needed to change some names and wording around, but the actual mechanics could have stayed the same.

I think you are wrong on that. JUst ask anyone who got sued by TSR. Comapnies can, and do, own the rights to game rules. Why else do you think people pay outmoney for an OGL liscense? THat is also why no one else has printed RuneQuest or DragonQuest game mechanics in the last fifteen-twenty years.

I want to know what are the sort of things that make MRQ better than RQ2 or RQ3. I don't need a detailed point calucation for something, or specfic details on something. Just some ideas on what we can do now with RQ that we couldn't before.

The obvious thing, given all we know and don't know at this point, is that we can actually purchase it and that there's a plan to actively support the game. For many people, there's no hope of getting a RQ game going because players that aren't pretty old see it as an ancient game and won't even try it. Now it will be on the shelf and is new. I realize this isn't really what you were after, but it is clearly a big advantage to having RQ being released again. [/qoute]

Hey, it is the best argument I've heard so far for MRQ. THe problem is that it is perhaps the weakest argument for buying a game I've ever heard.

"RuneQuest! By it now, because it's in print!." :shock:

Yeah, there is a big advantage to having RQ released again. But, settings aside, what is the advatage to buying MRQ as opposed to say (assuming that it get's printed) Deluxe BRP? I suspect that might be the big question among RQ supporters in 2007.

Actually, Mongoose has been pretty upfront about their design goals with the new RQ: mainly in attempting to streamline play (combat) with less math and a core resolution mechanic (newer game design principle), while offering more options for players. Whether they've actually done this or not won't be clear until after we get a chance to read the full rules. The previews are just enough to keep us debating things which means they're quite successful previews.

Well, the point of previes are to build up interest and please your fanbase. In my case they haven't been very good, as the previes have changed my position from being a RQ loyalist who got my local gaming shop onwer to special order the game for me, to one where I am worried that I am buying the wrong RPG.

I agree, how well the new game meets the design goals won't be known until the game is relased and feeback puours in. I find that Mongoose's silence on the new systems to be worrisome. MOngoose employees all say it is a great game, but then don't say how. Hardly a strong selling point.

 

[RMS]

I've read this several times here and it is not correct. Game mechanics cannot be protected as intellectual property. Chaosium owns the name BRP and Mongoose owns (or is leasing?) RQ, but those are just names. However, the actual mechanics are pretty much free for anyone to use. Worst case, Mongoose would have needed to change some names and wording around, but the actual mechanics could have stayed the same.

I think you are wrong on that. JUst ask anyone who got sued by TSR. Comapnies can, and do, own the rights to game rules. Why else do you think people pay outmoney for an OGL liscense? THat is also why no one else has printed RuneQuest or DragonQuest game mechanics in the last fifteen-twenty years.

I'm not wrong on this. All that's required to sue someone is deep enough pockets to pay the lawyers. TSR could push people around because they were by far the biggest company, not because they could have actually won a case on any of this. (I also don't recall exactly what they were suing over. Maybe they did have a case. You could build a case on terminology much easier than on mechanics: rolling dice isn't exactly new and innovative! ) People pay money for licenses so that they can use trademarks, which are part of intellectual property rights and pretty easy to defend.

Example: I can release a game that uses a d20+skill+modifiers compared to a target number that works in every way like the D20 system. Nobody can stop me from doing that. What's protected is not the basic mechanic, but the trademark: the logo everyone puts on their D20 books. As discussed other places in the RQ threads around here, plenty of games out there basically copied the BRP mechanics. They may have new names for things, or not, but so long as that aren't attempting to use the names BRP/etc. or the Chaosium trademarks, then Chaosium really can't do anything about it. In fact, this has worked in the opposite way. Chaosium released the monographs for BRP that are RQ3 with all the names changed from RQ to BRP. Chaosium didn't own the rights to RQ, so couldn't use the name, but there's nothing to protect the actual mechanics. (They apparently owned the rights to the verbage, but that's a different issue.)

Enough of that. The real issue here IMO, is that any changes Mongoose has made to how RQ works is because they think the changes are good changes, not because they had to change things to avoid litigation with Chaosium. I think it's unfair to Mongoose to cast the changes as something they did just to avoid using the BRP mechanics. Whether we agree with them or not, every indication is that they were made because the design team felt they were an improvement. (Plus, let's be honest here. Chaosium would have a horrible time trying to keep up with Mongoose in the lawyer games from everything we on the outside know about the monetary situations of both companies.)

I want to know what are the sort of things that make MRQ better than RQ2 or RQ3. I don't need a detailed point calucation for something, or specfic details on something. Just some ideas on what we can do now with RQ that we couldn't before.

The obvious thing, given all we know and don't know at this point, is that we can actually purchase it and that there's a plan to actively support the game. For many people, there's no hope of getting a RQ game going because players that aren't pretty old see it as an ancient game and won't even try it. Now it will be on the shelf and is new. I realize this isn't really what you were after, but it is clearly a big advantage to having RQ being released again.

Hey, it is the best argument I've heard so far for MRQ. THe problem is that it is perhaps the weakest argument for buying a game I've ever heard.

It depends on your situation. I no longer live close to my old RQ group, and have had no luck getting anyone to even try the game here because "it's an ancient, out-of-date game". I can't help but think that having it on the shelves will actually help my situation in getting someone to try it. Plus, the current group I play with generally won't play anything unless they all own their own copies of everything - pretty hard to do with a game that's 20 years out of print.

Yeah, there is a big advantage to having RQ released again. But, settings aside, what is the advatage to buying MRQ as opposed to say (assuming that it get's printed) Deluxe BRP? I suspect that might be the big question among RQ supporters in 2007.

I'll pick up both. RPGs are a cheap hobbie, so I don't waste any time debating whether to buy something or not when I'm even remotely interested. For my other hobbies I shop and debate, but not over whether to spend $20 on a book!

I agree, how well the new game meets the design goals won't be known until the game is relased and feeback puours in. I find that Mongoose's silence on the new systems to be worrisome. MOngoose employees all say it is a great game, but then don't say how. Hardly a strong selling point.

Why? One would hope they're busy doing things other than explaining mechanics in detail that will shortly be available for all of us to see. If I were them, I wouldn't waste time on it. Everything is already set. Those of us still interested will get the game regardless, and those who aren't going to buy it because of the mechanics will skip it whether they read the details here or in the book at the local game store.

 

[andakitty]

That all sounds sensible to me, RMS. I can think of reasons for arranging the books like they have, but I am weary of listening to everything that is wrong, how Mongoose is greedy, etc., etc. so I refrain from further cajoling and trying to get people to be fair and patient about it. Not sure why some people are even posting here, and I am too tired to care. I'll buy the books and not complain, ours is a cheap hobby (like you said) and I greatly desire an in-print playable game. A few warts are OK, and I don't mind firing a few extra bucks Mongoose' way if they can produce a product I like. That's all that matters to me.

 

[Mikko Leho]

experience checks have been repalced with XP (Hero Points).

Are they now? The Companion preview states:

it takes two improvement rolls to learn any Sorcery spell

Not sure if the experience checks have been kept but improvement rolls are still in the game.

 

[Lord Twig]

I will not reply specifically to any previous posts, there are far too many. Instead I will just concentrate on what stuck out in my mind.

First let me say that I am very encouraged by the Companion preview. I am a hardcore RQ gamer from way back (over 20 years ago) and I am convinced that this latest version of RuneQuest not only deserves the name but also will be an excellent introduction to the game for the 21st century player.

From what I have read we will have a percentile-based system that is not class, level and experience based. The latest revelation that there will be skill rolls for improvement quiets one of my few remaining worries.

Combat will be fast, reactive, and deadly. Hit locations will be a primary part of damage resolution. Fatigue has been revamped. The old Strike Ranks have been removed for something quicker. I am not sure I will like the new Strike Rank system since I haven't seen the whole thing, but the old one, IMO, needed to be changed.

The old magic systems that were the best part of RQII and RQIII are there in an almost unchanged form. Sacrificing Power for Divine Magic from RQII and a flexible, skill based Sorcery system from RQIII. Sorcery did indeed need fixing from RQIII, but the preview already suggests that this has been done with the Target and Combine manipulation skills.

The new magic system, Rune Magic, is brilliant! It does indeed give the game a reason for being called RuneQuest. Which is something that no other edition has ever had! The old Battle Magic/Spirit Magic was, IMO, by far the chunkiest magic system rules-wise.

Minor foibles.

I would have used a different term for the loss of Divine Magic than "memory". Mechanically it would make absolutely no difference, as loss of the spell was always how Divine Magic has worked, but it conjurers the wrong impression from D&D's "bad old days". I would have used something like "the spells power was expended and is gone for good" or something like that.

There was another thing, but I can't think of it now. :? Guess it wasn't that important.

As for the number of books. You can play the game with just the RQ main book, but for the complete game it is obvious you will need the Companion. This is not a problem for me. As has been said before, RPGs are cheap. Once you buy the rules you can play for years. If I drop a $100 on 3 or 4 books, that is a great investment for entertainment spending.

I hope for adventures as well, but I have heard they don't really sell that well. If Mongoose is smart they will solicit adventures from the community and make them available in pdf format for free on their website. It works for WotC!