Solider vs. Barbarian

[grizzly ruin]

This is probably an ancient topic, and has probably resurfaced quite a few times in one guise or another.

If so I apologize. (I've searched the forum, but haven't found anything sufficient.)

Since I've only just recently become acquainted with the Conan RPG, I'm curious what other peoples experience with these two classes have been,

At a rough glance, it seems as if the solider is at a sore disadvantage against the barbarian.

In fact, I'm quite curious why the soldier class is designed as it is.

All of the other classes seem to have gotten alot of thought and attention put into them, where as the solider is pretty much a straight port of the fighter with "Formation Combat" added onto it, which I don't really see as all that significant, not to a single player character anyway.

I'm going to be game mastering, and I quite like the idea of the solider class, but it seems to need a bit of work. So I'll probably tweak it a bit.


I'm curious if others have felt this way and have done any tweaking to the Solider class and how it worked for you.



The soldier class seems pretty outclassed by the barbarian. Which I surmise was done as this game is based on Conan (which is a bit silly to model a class of off a single supremely extrordinary character)


Some points

• 
  The soldier loses out heavily on inititative.
  
  Has the greatest amount of "bonus feats" but seeing as other classes get a special ability, if not 2 (except the noble) nearly every single level it doesn't actually seem they gain all that much. The only thing gained here is freedom of choice. This is compounded by the fact that in no way what so ever does a bonus feat, or even three, come close to equalling the power of "Versatility" or triple threat ranges.
  
  Has the smallest number of skills. I don't think getting bonus feats is an excuse for this, as I mentioned, the other classes gain abilities every level, their skills increases aren't hindered by this.

Curious what others think,

If you feel I'm way off base, please explain why as it would be helpful.

 

[Arkobla Conn]

In my opinion, the greatest application of classes in this game is in it's multiclassing. Use soldier to augment other areas. Oh, and get Free Companies if you want more detail on Soldiers. It enhances them greatly. All of the PC's in my group are multiclassed with at least 3 difference classes. It adds to the flavor of your character. I've enforced the rule that when they go up, they must alsogive me some justification as to why they can go up in that class. IE, they can't choose pirate if they are wandering in the desert.

 

[grizzly ruin]

In my opinion, the greatest application of classes in this game is in it's multiclassing. Use soldier to augment other areas. Oh, and get Free Companies if you want more detail on Soldiers. It enhances them greatly. All of the PC's in my group are multiclassed with at least 3 difference classes. It adds to the flavor of your character. I've enforced the rule that when they go up, they must alsogive me some justification as to why they can go up in that class. IE, they can't choose pirate if they are wandering in the desert.

I agree, the multi-classing aspect of this game is great.

But it seems like the biggest benefit of multiclassing is to take a few levels here and there of other classes to add flavor and variety. But if you want to play a character that will be a fairly dedicated soldier, looking to become at least 10th, or even going to 15th level. A bit of tweaking seems like it might be in order.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Probably because Conan wades through scores of soldiers in the stories. In most of the stories, Howard emphasizes the superiority of barbarians over civilised men, esp. soldiers.

Soldiers who take the leadership feat, btw, can utilise their formation combats more often, esp. if their cohorts and followers have the same formation combat abilities.

I think it is appropriate for the barbarian class to be mechanically superior to the soldier class for this game. Notice how in the stories even highly trained soldiers are amazed at how superior the unwashed barbarian is at combat. If all classes are to be equal, then a person should design a single "class" and then pick and choose among abilities.

Arkobla Conn has hit the nail on the head. Multiclassing should be emphasized.

 

[The King]

... Arkobla Conn has hit the nail on the head. Multiclassing should be emphasized.

I totally agree with you. With the feats and competences in D&D 3 (or OGL in this case), classes are not as distinct as before. Specialization still exist but players should be able to change as they feel and as it suits them rather than being confined in one or two classes for the rest of their character's life.

 

[argo]

I disagree that the Soldier is mechanically inferior to the Barbarian but I'm not suprised that you jumped to that conclusion. The Soldier's strengths are slightly more subtle than that, the secret is in defense.

See a Barbarian gets a good Dodge bonus and a poor Parry bonus while the Soldier gets a medium Dodge and a good Parry. This is a huge advantage for the soldier for two reasons. First Dodge runs off Dex while Parry runs off Str. Parry has more synergy with a Str based combat style which is espically effective in Conan with Power Attack, armor penetration and the all-important massive damage threshold. A Barbarian who wants a good offense and defense has to split his attention between Str and Dex while the Soldier can focus on Str: MAD is a class weakness of the barbarian. Secondly Parry synergises with armor in Conan: armor puts a maximum limit on your Dex bonus to defense but no limit on your Str bonus to defense. A soldier can suit up in the heaviest armor he can find and it won't affect his DV one bit, basically he gest DR for free. Trust me when I tell you that a high-Str soldier in heavy armor and with a Large Shield is as tough a tank as they come. And don't underestimat the power of bonus feats either. There are a lot of good feats in Conan and the ability to choose your own to take advantage of your synergies is not to be underestimated. A Hyborian Soldier will have nine feats by level 6! The power here is the ability to work your way up feat chains (or even multiple chains) more quickly than other characters.

The thing of it is this, a Soldier is a specalist (makes sense, he represents the fighting arm of civilization, a warrior based on trainning and teamwork) while a Barbarian is a generalist. A soldier in his element should be able to go toe-to-toe with a barbarian no problem, but the Barbarian can adapt to any situation that gets thrown at him with ease. If the Soldier gets shipwrecked and has to dump his armor he will now be at a disadvantage to the barbarian.

So no, I don't think the soldier class needs any work at all. A few more soldier-specific feats might be nice (I added a few to my game) but the class is not nearly as underpowered as you fear.

Hope that helps.

 

[Voltumna]

Since multiclassing and defense are being discussed: multiclassing in Conan is geat, but characters that multiclass a lot suffer on DV, since no class gains any improvement on parry or dodge at 1st level.

So, you might need to take feats and/or skills that improve your DV, like parry or dodge. Characters that have a DV based on parry, have some more good options (parry, intricate sword play, reflexive parry, two weapon defence) than characters with a dodge based DV. As a metter of fact, I think characters that would normaly dodge instead of parry only have the dodge feat, and if they have 5 ranks in tumble they get a sinergy bonus, although they may also get archer's bane against ranged attacks. And of course combat expertise for both defense styles, at the expense of attack bonus.

 

[Anonymous]

Also, there are lots of combat-based feats that are not available for barbarians level 7 or above (and also if you got these, your barbarian will lose those feats if he reaches level 7). Versitality lets barbarian fight quite effectively with exotic and improvised weapons, but the cost is his inability to use many of more "civiliced" combat feats.

 

[Hyborian]

Since multiclassing and defense are being discussed: multiclassing in Conan is geat, but characters that multiclass a lot suffer on DV, since no class gains any improvement on parry or dodge at 1st level.

I think this is more or less balanced by the fact that at 1st level all classes offer a +2 to one ore more saving throws. Of course, it doesn't help you dodge or parry, but if classes offered a DV enhancement at 1st level, multiclassing would become much too powerful (as far as balance between characters of same level is concerned, of course).

 

[grizzly ruin]

Soldiers who take the leadership feat, btw, can utilise their formation combats more often, esp. if their cohorts and followers have the same formation combat abilities.

That's an interesting point, I hadn't considered that.

I think it is appropriate for the barbarian class to be mechanically superior to the soldier class for this game. Notice how in the stories even highly trained soldiers are amazed at how superior the unwashed barbarian is at combat. If all classes are to be equal, then a person should design a single "class" and then pick and choose among abilities.

Arkobla Conn has hit the nail on the head. Multiclassing should be emphasized.

While in some ways I agree, should a civilized soldier from a Hyborean nation decide to multiclass as a barbarian to get abilities that are mechanically superior? Why bother being a soldier at all at that point.

I disagree that the Soldier is mechanically inferior to the Barbarian but I'm not suprised that you jumped to that conclusion. The Soldier's strengths are slightly more subtle than that, the secret is in defense.

See a Barbarian gets a good Dodge bonus and a poor Parry bonus while the Soldier gets a medium Dodge and a good Parry. This is a huge advantage for the soldier for two reasons. First Dodge runs off Dex while Parry runs off Str. Parry has more synergy with a Str based combat style which is espically effective in Conan with Power Attack, armor penetration and the all-important massive damage threshold. A Barbarian who wants a good offense and defense has to split his attention between Str and Dex while the Soldier can focus on Str: MAD is a class weakness of the barbarian. Secondly Parry synergises with armor in Conan: armor puts a maximum limit on your Dex bonus to defense but no limit on your Str bonus to defense. A soldier can suit up in the heaviest armor he can find and it won't affect his DV one bit, basically he gest DR for free. Trust me when I tell you that a high-Str soldier in heavy armor and with a Large Shield is as tough a tank as they come.

You make some really great arguments there, thanks it helps.

However, I think you also prove a strong counterpoint to what others have been saying about mutliclassing.

If the soldiers greatest strength is that he can focus on STR alone, and not have to split between dexterity. Where as he may gain some more versatility by multiclassing, he is also going to dilute and weaken that ability, as most of the other fighting classes are mobility based and not armor based.

And don't underestimat the power of bonus feats either. There are a lot of good feats in Conan and the ability to choose your own to take advantage of your synergies is not to be underestimated. A Hyborian Soldier will have nine feats by level 6! The power here is the ability to work your way up feat chains (or even multiple chains) more quickly than other characters.

It's true that a Hybroean soldier will have 9 bonus feats by level 6

However any race that has barbarian as a favored class will have 5 bonus feats at level 6, plus

Versatilty (no penalty), Endurance, Mobility, Uncanny dodge, Diehard and Crimson Mist.

That doesn't include the other special abilities that have non-combat applications. Track, Trap sense, Bite Sword, and Fearless.

Taken singly (even though versatility is easily worth at least 3 feats by itself) that's a total of 15 special abilities for the barbarian, 5 of which he gets to choose, vs. 9 for the Solider and the solider is guaranteed to be taken atleast a third of those as requisites for better feats.

Plus an extra 12 skill points available and a Higher initiative bonus to the Barbarian.

And finally the Barbarian also has 2 good saving throws as opposed to one.

So I have to agree with Mr. Dalarge that the Barbarian is easily a mechanically superior class.


In fact the border will have 12 special abilities, plus 12 extra skill points as well as a higher initiative and 2 good saves.

The nomad will have 15 special abilities. 2 good saves and higher initiative.

And though it's probably not the best examples the Theif, Pirate and Scholar all will have more abilities available to them at the same class level.

So I'm not sure if those 9 bonus feats continue to hold up against all of that.

The thing of it is this, a Soldier is a specalist (makes sense, he represents the fighting arm of civilization, a warrior based on trainning and teamwork) while a Barbarian is a generalist. A soldier in his element should be able to go toe-to-toe with a barbarian no problem, but the Barbarian can adapt to any situation that gets thrown at him with ease. If the Soldier gets shipwrecked and has to dump his armor he will now be at a disadvantage to the barbarian.

So no, I don't think the soldier class needs any work at all. A few more soldier-specific feats might be nice (I added a few to my game) but the class is not nearly as underpowered as you fear.

The problem with that example is that the Barbarian isn't really a generalist. A Generalist would lose out to a specialist when against a specialist in their area of specialty. But the barbarian won't.

Which is fine, if the game is based on Barbarians being king. Unfortunately I prefer a touch more class balance. Also, I still hold to my opinion that the barbarian class should not be designed to emulate Conan, who yes was able to best every soldier thrown at him no matter well trained, however he also bested every single Barbarian thrown at him as well. No matter how fierce or tough they were. Not to mention that he was the main character of the story and ended up King of the most powerful Hyborean nation. One could hardly say he's a normal measuring stick for what Barbarians can do or else the civilised nations wouldn't have been holding them back for a tenth as long as they had. So how does that work into the equation?

Just a few abilities, to look at here with the barbarian (who could easily not bother with multiclassing at all).

Versatility is equal to having an exotic weapon proficiency feat for every single exotic weapon in the game.

It also equals having not only Improved critical, but Greater Critical with every single weapon in the game.

Uncanny dodge prevents him from being flanked.

Damage Reduction evens out any Solider in Heavy Armor vs Barbarian in Light/medium armor inequalities.

Greater mobility makes him immune to attacks of opportunity...


That makes the Barbarian a great deal more than a Generalist.


The borderer is a real generalist and does it well and is nicely balanced.


Anyway, my long winded point really wasn't a concern that the game makers should run out and fix the classes based on one lone clowns assumptions.

I'm mostly interested in coming up with some tweaks of my own, to suit the campaign to my interests and needs.

 

[VincentDarlage]

One could hardly say he's a normal measuring stick for what Barbarians can do or else the civilised nations wouldn't have been holding them back for a tenth as long as they had. So how does that work into the equation?

Keep in mind Hyborian history. The Hyborians WERE barbarians when they swept south and destroyed Acheron - then they became civilised, which weakened them. Then the Hyrkanians and the Picts WILL overrun them. The whole of Hyborian history is one of civilisation falling to barbarians, the barbarians become civilised, new barbarians destroy civilisation, the barbarians become civilised, over and over again. Civilisation holds them back because of organisation (formation combat!) for a spell, until the barbarians have a reason to unite...

 

[VincentDarlage]

While in some ways I agree, should a civilized soldier from a Hyborean nation decide to multiclass as a barbarian to get abilities that are mechanically superior? Why bother being a soldier at all at that point.

From a mechanical standpoint that would make sense, but from a role-playing standpoint that is an unlikely choice. Most Hyborians disdain barbarians, underestimate them and generally do not glorify them. Indeed, civilised men who "go native" with the Picts are called renegades and are killed for that crime. Why bother being a soldier? Social reasons. Women of all ages like a man in uniform. Some cultures disdain common folk from carrying martial weapons, so violent members of society may choose the military. Other people are simply pressed into service and trained. Players should choose the soldier because it makes sense for their character concept, not for mechanical benefits. One should always look at the society's norms before making class decisions. In Conan the Roleplaying Game, race is more important than class.

Also, barbarians and nomads and pirates and such are more likely to get harrassed/arrested in the cities than soldiers, so there are some social benefits to being in a socially-acceptable class that you are ignoring/forgetting/not realising.

Don't forget that there are races (such as the meadow Shemite and the Bossonian) who favour the soldier.

 

[sbarrie]

In the past I considered giving the Soldier d12 hit points, and changing Weapon Specialization to increase the weapon's AP. I didn't do these, and all my players eventually multiclassed into Soldier anyway.

Soldier's a fine class. I bet Free Companies has lots of bennies for high level soldiers too.

 

[sanseveria]

When we first started playing we did a short try out campaign. We ended up with a party made mostly of barbarians.

When we finally started playing a long term campaign, out of 7 players I ended with 1 barbarian and 3 soldiers, (plus a mix of others). As far as our group is concern there`s absolutely no problem.

I`ve noticed that the Soldier/Noble combination is becomming popular though, I think its a great combo.

SS

 

[VincentDarlage]

My players tend to have a lot of soldiers among them as well - none of them have complained.

 

[Pharoah Kromium]

When we first started playing we did a short try out campaign. We ended up with a party made mostly of barbarians.

When we finally started playing a long term campaign, out of 7 players I ended with 1 barbarian and 3 soldiers, (plus a mix of others). As far as our group is concern there`s absolutely no problem.

I`ve noticed that the Soldier/Noble combination is becomming popular though, I think its a great combo.

SS

Also, in "heroic mode", parties don't reflect the demographic make-up of the Hyborian age.

 

[argo]

You make some really great arguments there, thanks it helps.

However, I think you also prove a strong counterpoint to what others have been saying about mutliclassing.

If the soldiers greatest strength is that he can focus on STR alone, and not have to split between dexterity. Where as he may gain some more versatility by multiclassing, he is also going to dilute and weaken that ability, as most of the other fighting classes are mobility based and not armor based.

The soldier/noble multiclass is a ready-made match. A soldier/borderer multiclass also has potential.

It's true that a Hybroean soldier will have 9 bonus feats by level 6

However any race that has barbarian as a favored class will have 5 bonus feats at level 6, plus

Versatilty (no penalty), Endurance, Mobility, Uncanny dodge, Diehard and Crimson Mist.

That doesn't include the other special abilities that have non-combat applications. Track, Trap sense, Bite Sword, and Fearless.

Taken singly (even though versatility is easily worth at least 3 feats by itself) that's a total of 15 special abilities for the barbarian, 5 of which he gets to choose, vs. 9 for the Solider and the solider is guaranteed to be taken atleast a third of those as requisites for better feats.

Plus an extra 12 skill points available and a Higher initiative bonus to the Barbarian.

And finally the Barbarian also has 2 good saving throws as opposed to one.

So I have to agree with Mr. Dalarge that the Barbarian is easily a mechanically superior class.

The trick of this is that making a powerful soldier build is all about tweaking synergies which is hard to quantify without this devolving into one of those "post a dozen differetn example build" threads. 9 feats versus 4 may not sound like much but that is an entire extra feat chain the soldier gets and depending on the build that can be quite impressive. Also consider that the barbarian already has most of his special abilities picked for him and that there is a good chance that many of them will not come into play at the same time (depending on the situation). The soldier has the liberity of deciding what he wants his abilities to be and can try to make sure that they all come into play at the same time (or not, if that is his choice). That is where the soldier = specalist pardagrim comes into play.

The problem with that example is that the Barbarian isn't really a generalist. A Generalist would lose out to a specialist when against a specialist in their area of specialty. But the barbarian won't.

I disagree totally that a barbarian facing a specalist soldier in his area of specialty will win hands down. A barbarian can't compete with a specalists soldier in the areas of mounted combat, heavy armor slug fests or archery. A barbarian is probably on even ground with a specalist fighter in the areas of unarmed combat/grappling and fencing.


At any rate I'm just starting to repeat myself now. All I can tell you is my own theories and the play experience that backs them up and I don't feel that the soldier is at a particular disadvantage to the barbarian at all, he just works differently is all.

Later.

 

[Anonymous]

Well I've gotten a pretty unanimous opposite reaction to my suggestion, so I'll take that as it stands and perhaps leave the soldier as it is.

I appreciate the feedback, perhaps I''l pick up free companies and see where that leads.

 

[grizzly ruin]

Forgot to log in, the previous reply was mine. :shock:

 

[Anonymous]

It is true that high level Barbarians versitality ability works like a greater critical feat. On the other hand for a solider at the same level can certainly have greater critical, but also some feats unavailable for high level barbarian... Don't have my book here right now, but greater weapon focus + greater weapon specilization comes in my mind.