So how well is MRQ2 selling anyway?

[danskmacabre]

Personally for rules books and generally larger publications I by far prefer printed material.
As I said earlier, I don't mind buying PDFs for scenarios (like say up to 30 pages).

Regarding Piracy, Speaking from a PC gaming perspective, I generally buy PC games through Steam which is really nice and there seems to be less DRM issues with games bought on Steam.
PC games that have the "Maximum amount of activations" and then you're done I never buy (or pirate).
Regarding PC games piracy, it's not really tempted me as if you download a dodgy copy, it won't have the latest patches (which sometimes are pretty much essential to have and you probably won't be ale to play it online anyway.
Whatever the case, if you just wait for a few months, PC games come down in price anyway and really even at full price, it's value for money, considering the amount of hours I put into a game.
I by far prefer Steam to physical media anyway, I don't have to worry about losing or scratching a DVD, now if I get a new PC, I can either export my games or just re-download them.
It's a model that works very well for everyone.

 

[danskmacabre]

[
There are ways to control it. The most efficient are Federally enforced. If piraters were hit with fines from the IRS or it's equivalent folks would stop. There are other solutions as well (charges directly to you internet provider or phone bill, etc.). But pirating is traceable, it's just a matter of motivation.

You mean charging EVERYONE via the ISP or phone bill?
Tht's seems like a GREAT way to increase piracy, if I knew I was subsidising games companies and music companies I'd probably think "what the hell" and pirate away.
Although for music I use Spotify at this time, for PC games Steam.
Both legit models which work.

 

[danskmacabre]

I'm sure these companies don't want to inconvenience legitimate customers but they have a right, surely, to protect their property and profits? I don't think that's a bad business decision, I think it is an inevitable decision if they are to remain viable. Unfortunately, this situation is the reverse of the old adage, the few spoiling it for the many.

Honestly I think these big record comapnies and so on are just a model that doesn't work.
It seems very old fashioned to have some company to make a physical media for music, ship it to a shop and then the shop sells it from there.
Lots of POD type booths seem more in order perhaps and use digital distribution as well.
Maybe these big record companies are dying out as poeple don't want to pay their inflated prices (Inflated prices which has been the case way before the internet).
I personally quite like paying a monthly fee with Spotify, as I have internet pretty much everywhere I go and it works for me.
I suppose it's not for everyone tho.

 

[danskmacabre]

All printed material should be done on paper that is unreadable when photocopied or scanned. PDF's should be secured so that to do anything other than view it "X" times you need an unlock code or similar.

no thanks, I would never (and have refused to buy) a PDF or document like that.
For the most part I prefer physical books, as I don't think the current crop or ereaders are quite up to it yet.
I do want to buy an ereader anyway, but not as a 100% replacement for physical books yet.

As to paper that can't be photocopied, I've seen that paper in game manuals in the 80s, the color schemes make it difficult to read, not a nice experience.

 

[PhilHibbs]

There are ways to control it. The most efficient are Federally enforced. If piraters were hit with fines from the IRS or it's equivalent folks would stop. There are other solutions as well (charges directly to you internet provider or phone bill, etc.). But pirating is traceable, it's just a matter of motivation.

If you want to live in a police state, there are already plenty in the world that you can move to. Also, persecuting your customers is not a great business model. And yes, people who download illegally are customers. I have downloaded Mongoose PDFs, but I've also spent around £300 on MRQ products. The reason I downloaded the core rules was because the DriveThru version can't be edited, and I wanted to add a clickable table of contents.

 

[ThatGuy]

There are ways to control it. The most efficient are Federally enforced. If piraters were hit with fines from the IRS or it's equivalent folks would stop. There are other solutions as well (charges directly to you internet provider or phone bill, etc.). But pirating is traceable, it's just a matter of motivation.

If you want to live in a police state, there are already plenty in the world that you can move to. Also, persecuting your customers is not a great business model. And yes, people who download illegally are customers. I have downloaded Mongoose PDFs, but I've also spent around £300 on MRQ products. The reason I downloaded the core rules was because the DriveThru version can't be edited, and I wanted to add a clickable table of contents.

A police state? Really? Are you saying there is a country that you can steal legally in? Let me know where.

I don't think that the stopping of stealing is the equivalent of a police state. There are certain laws that are in place so that society runs efficiently. Things like Rape, Murder, and Theft are pretty universally unlawful. That's essentially what pirating is. You are stealing someone's work.

Just because the Internet is the Wild West, doesn't mean people will be able to rob trains forever. Nor should they be allowed to.

 

[Simulacrum]

I also work in media - and the points made here are a commonplace in any creative content business. The problem is that moving the business model piecemeal (e.g. we sell books but also pdfs) is a half-way house. In the end the business must feed off a small dedictwed fan base, keep them loyal and take their money in exchange for goods and services on a regular basis. The total charging mechanism needs examining.

e.g. (only, this is frex not a proposal)

I pay $40 for core rules. I get a book

I pay $50 for core rules. I get copy of the book and an access code that gives me the right to a digital copy if I need/want one, plus choose 3 of 5 scenarios on pdf that would cost any other user $5 each. I get previews of other books, and I get pdf updated errata or key rules adds for free.

I pay $75. I get a hard copy rule book plus a year's susbcription to... etc.

 

[PhilHibbs]

A police state? Really? Are you saying there is a country that you can steal legally in? Let me know where.

Please, I've gone over this ground too many times already, my feet are sore.

 

[danskmacabre]

A police state? Really? Are you saying there is a country that you can steal legally in? Let me know where.

I don't think that the stopping of stealing is the equivalent of a police state. There are certain laws that are in place so that society runs efficiently. Things like Rape, Murder, and Theft are pretty universally unlawful. That's essentially what pirating is. You are stealing someone's work.

Just because the Internet is the Wild West, doesn't mean people will be able to rob trains forever. Nor should they be allowed to.

I don't think anyone here is advocating Piracy, where they're saying is some of your "Solutions" are pretty extreme and IMO they will only succeed in creating MORE piracy.

The world has changed dramatically, like it or not many of the old business models just don't work anymore.
There are a few companies doing things in a more customer friendly way and doing quite well.
Legit customers are already pretty annoyed with record companies putting say rootkits on CDs and so on, part of the reason I'd never buy a music CD.

People will simply not pay for crippled software that you have to jump through hoops to use.
I won't pay for PDFs, Software, games that I can only install a certain amount of times or can only install on one particular PC or whatever other restrictions are placed.

As things stand I'm happy with how Steam games work, so I pay for my games (As I always have anyway).
I'm happy with how Spotify works, so I pay £5 a month to listen to lots of music. So there are models out there that work.
If I feel like I'm being FORCED to pay for the survivial of record companies or movie studios via taxes, charges on my ISP or whatever, it'll very quickly turn me from a paying customer to not a customer at all.

Making more laws and squeezing the populace harder simply isn't going to work and it won't reduce piracy.
Distribution methods are going to have to change and in a way that doesn't mess around their customers.

 

[Mikko Leho]

No, I'm not joking. I understand your POV. Unfortunately, those that "play fair", like yourself and others that frequent these forums, are now in the minority, rather than the majority. If you have any better ideas on how to prevent piracy, so that publishers, developers and authors get paid their due, I'd be mighty interested in hearing them. I'm sure these companies don't want to inconvenience legitimate customers but they have a right, surely, to protect their property and profits? I don't think that's a bad business decision, I think it is an inevitable decision if they are to remain viable. Unfortunately, this situation is the reverse of the old adage, the few spoiling it for the many.

My point was that different businesses have tried to implement different copy protection methods but they have always failed. Music industry tried that with CDs and downloadable content but in the end failed. PDF publishing started with universally reviled DRM but as it was later discarded it led to the successful market of today. All evidence point that copy protection in all forms will have a negative impact on business.

For alternatives you can download and distribute Eclipse Phase freely (publisher actually seeded the initial torrent) and it has been a great success for Posthuman Studios both in PDF and print sales. You can download the game, see how it works for you and then alternatively pay. Apparently WildFire is following this model with their upcoming Void RPG.

Other example of new business practices is Kickstarter.com. While this is more of starting point to your project, it highlights how you can use internet to your advantage. At the moment I am personally pledging Eldritch Skies by Battlefield Press: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1292093911/eldritch-skies I find this model and the game itself rather exciting.

 

[ThatGuy]

A police state? Really? Are you saying there is a country that you can steal legally in? Let me know where.

Please, I've gone over this ground too many times already, my feet are sore.

Fair enough! This debate doesn't really effect anything.

Obviously the folks on this forum are BIG supporters, so it's kinda like preaching to the choir.

I am curious about which supplements are selling best...

 

[Verderer]

I don't think anyone here is advocating Piracy...

I dunno, man. That PhilHibbs dude is pretty suspicious, what with his piratey hat and all. :lol:

 

[Grimolde]

So, after 30 years of roleplaying, I finally find 'the' game of my needs and wants, and it's starting to cough and wheeze?

Not as long as we have fans and the internet!

It's a lot more serious for the publishers of course :|

 

[PhilHibbs]

I don't think anyone here is advocating Piracy...

I dunno, man. That PhilHibbs dude is pretty suspicious, what with his piratey hat and all. :lol:

Shiver me timbers, how dare ye imply such a thing, ye dirty swab!

 

[Tipsy]

Dodging the piracy issue (and since I work in Business Affairs for a Television Production company, I do have an opinion), I often think that these threads wherein old gamers talk about how gamers are getting older suffer from a bit of self-selection.

The extended gaming circle I've formed since moving to Toronto has had about 10 members in various incarnations and combinations over the past three years. At 34 I am the oldest member of my group by nearly 3 years with most of them being in their late twenties. Moreover, looking at local convention and meet-up games, I am uncomfortably becoming part of the small geezer minority at these events.

However, had I stayed in Montreal (or even Calgary) I would likely still be playing with groups wherein the bulk of my players were my age or a little older. Being forced to find new players opened my eyes to the fact that not only are there a fair number of younger players out there, but they are easier to find.

All this is to say, that while the market is certainly not as big as it was in the 80s, there is a substantial number of players in their 20s and younger. Now whether these players are more likely to swipe a game than buy it, is another question (doing informal investigation, I think a lot of players tend to 'test-drive' downloaded RPG books before buying them in hard copy).

Finally, when it comes to MRQII, I think the pretty poor reviews of MRQI combined with the problems Mongoose has had with their lines in the past made the RPG market pretty suspicious.

That said, it seems like every week there is a new MRQII thread on RPG.Net or therpgsite which sings the praises of this very good game. I am inclined to believe that the word of mouth on MRQII is really just starting to pick-up and while it may never outsell Traveller, MRQII will do alright in the long run.

 

[sdavies2720]

I don't know if my gaming group is typical, but we have about 1/3 in their 40s (one person just turned 50), 1/3 in their 30s, and 1/3 in their 20s. We'd have some teenagers, but we play Friday nights in a local game store that allows alcohol as long as everyone is of age. We generally start when the Magic players (mostly teenagers, and a smattering of Dads and other enthusiasts) leave.

I think one thing that is really different about the economics of RQ is it doesn't lend itself to endless add-on books the way that D&D does. I find, and frankly expect, the additional source books to either nail a setting or significant expansion of options. Necromancy, leaving aside editing, was a good example -- pretty much everything you need to add that dark magic to your campaign. Vikings is another good example. You don't need to buy a whole lot of these.

The problem with adventures, for a game company, is the market is cut at least in half before you even start -- the GM will buy one, but not his players. So, in some ways the strengths of RQII are economic challenges for Mongoose.

Steve

 

[DamonJynx]

One last comment about the piracy issue: Paying customers are subsidising the losses from piracy already in more expensive product.

The advent of the internet and digital media does mean that all business' need to re-think their business models and how they get their product to market.

If they can do that in such a way that reduces piracy and increases the benefits to legit consumers, I'm all for it.

And Phil, I know what you mean about indexed/linked PDF's. Why can't they bookmark them at the very least?

 

[languagegeek]

One last comment about the piracy issue: Paying customers are subsidising the losses from piracy already in more expensive product.

The advent of the internet and digital media does mean that all business' need to re-think their business models and how they get their product to market.

If they can do that in such a way that reduces piracy and increases the benefits to legit consumers, I'm all for it.

And Phil, I know what you mean about indexed/linked PDF's. Why can't they bookmark them at the very least?

I imagine the people downloading pirated rpgs are the same people who used to steal books from libraries, had a massive collection of recorded cassettes from other people's LPs, sat and photocopied entire textbooks, stay at your house for a week instead of going to hotel, bought DVD burners to supply their home movie collection, etc. etc. Mooches. No matter the technology, they'll be around to rip something off and raid your fridge. We've been eating the costs of pirates since pre-history. It's not going to change now because of digital protection.

 

[DamonJynx]

I imagine the people downloading pirated rpgs are the same people who used to steal books from libraries, had a massive collection of recorded cassettes from other people's LPs, sat and photocopied entire textbooks, stay at your house for a week instead of going to hotel, bought DVD burners to supply their home movie collection, etc. etc. Mooches. No matter the technology, they'll be around to rip something off and raid your fridge. We've been eating the costs of pirates since pre-history. It's not going to change now because of digital protection.

Quite so, but I think you're over generalising. Do you pay for all your software? Have you downloaded anything illegally? Or used an illegal copy of something? Bet you have, and I'm damn sure most of the people on these forums have. I certainly have and make no bones about it.

The digital era has made it a lot easier to 'pilfer' books, movies, music, software and the like. All I'm saying, is that if business' can change their models and or product to benefit legitimate customers by providing value-added material etc at reasonable prices it may help limit piracy and improve the viability of those business'. If I can buy something for $20 that includes a whole heap of extras, or I can download the base product for free with no add-ons, personally I'd buy the product or subscribe or whatever.

 

[ThatGuy]

Ok.

I think that without a negative reinforcement, piracy will only increase. It's like theft. Until you see other people being punished for doing it, there is no reason to stop. Same with bank robberies and breaking and entering, or even shoplifting. There is the positive, moral reinforcement, but without some kind of negative reinforcement I just don't see it stopping on a whole. I think what will happen instead is a culture of entitlement, and people justifying why they should get stuff for free. In the meantime money is sucked out of industries and the quality of output decreases as the product is devalued and people that may have invested more time in an industry if that time was reciprocated with a monetary gain, will instead do something else that makes ends meet, and give what was their job and is now their hobby, what time they can, and no more.

I've watched it happen in the music industry.

It will happen in other information based industries as long as there is no negative reinforcement.

If everyone could steal food without suffering any repercussions, they would. And food would be, essentially, free.

That is a fine utopian sentiment.

But it is bad for the food industry. Therefore there are laws to protect the food industry from such pilfering- such as jail time and fines- pretty convincing negative reinforcements. The same is true for most industries.

You can believe that if Oil were downloadable, this would not be a discussion. The Internet would be crashed tomorrow with some type of world wide injunction until a solution was found. As it stands, the industries that have been hammered have been unable to respond quickly enough, or are too small to respond, and as a result they are left defenseless when people steal their food.

Just my opinion, and there are some that refute it, but in the mean time, the industries are undeniably dying. And everyone acts like it's a mystery as to why. And as far as "new business models", there may be truth to the concept, but unfortunately very few are working. And by very few, I'm talking about 1 in 100, and usually those have some type of asterix along side them. I always love it when on the music side people point to Radiohead's "pay what you want" strategy and ignore the years of work and millions of dollars put into their marketing budgets by a major label before they could be in a situation where some one even wanted to pay something. And even then the average payment was about $5.

But I will stop with my trashing of the "Industrial Evil that is the Internet." If no one else can draw the relationship between the internets proliferation in business and industry and the global economic slump, who am I to do so?