So how well is MRQ2 selling anyway?
- Thread starter danskmacabre
- Start date
Again, nonsense. You might get some food for free, but someone tougher than you would steal your food. Then you'd have to acquire some more food, and it might be easier to just buy it and hire someone to protect your food store. Eventually these protection schemes would evolve into an organised police force, and there you have it, modern society. But if I have a PDF of MRQ2 and someone copies it from me, I have no incentive to hire a bodyguard to stop them because I'm losing nothing. The whole economic equation is entirely different. Sure, there's a consequence for the original producer, that they need to do something different than producing a finite number of artefacts and relying on them all selling at a given price, but it's not the same as stealing. Damn, I got suckered into repeating the whole discussion again, didn't I? Oh well, I'm sure it'll only happen another few thousand times.ThatGuy said:
danskmacabre
Mongoose
ThatGuy said:
There's lots an lots of replies I was going to type to your comments.
But I've been thorugh this sooo many times before and I just can't be bothered. So I'll try to be a brief as possible and break it all down to a few points.
1: I work for a software house, I'm a programmer. We GIVE away our software for free and we charge for support. The company I work for employs 30+ poeple and doing very well. Yet another business model that WORKS. So your saying there's only a few exceptions, it just doesn't fly with me. I gave you other examples as well.
2: Regarding the free food thing you said vs Software theft. If I goto a shop and buy food, it's my food from then on, I don't have a restriction on where I eat it or where I take it. I don't have to buy the food, then register it by going somewhere else and entering a validation code.
If I buy lots of food and then move house say, I don't lose rights to the said food. It's a completely different thing with physical products like food. If there were the sorts of ridiculous restrictions that Software often has put on food, you can be sure people would be stealing it.
3: Downloadable Oil. If oil could be downloaded, you can be sure even before it was made available on the internet it would be silenced by whatever means necessary. There's plenty of alternatives to oil, but we'll be using oil until it runs out, regardless of how inefficient, expensive etc it is. It still exists as a main source of energy because powerful people are still making money from it, not because it's particularly practical.
4: The music industry and Movie inductry. Honestly I care little for either. They have for years crippled media for Music and movies and still it did them no good. I think finally with subscription based services we have a format that just might work. If it doesn't it'll be because thet shoot themselves in the foot ( yet again) by introducing more limitations to annoy their paying customers.
My closing (and last) comment on this is Alternative business models DO work, I've given you plenty of examples that DO WORK. If businesses can't adapt, then they deserve to die.
s/DO/CAN/ I think, and software is unusual compared to other copyright areas. No-one will make a business around charging for support for a roleplaying game, to make a silly example. I do understand the concerns of those that are creating roleplaying games as a business and see people getting it for free. Some of those are bound to be lost sales, people who would have bought it had it not been available on dodgydownloads.com. The trick is to convert those downloaders (or their friends) into paying customers of the next product.danskmacabre said:
danskmacabre
Mongoose
I'm not saying it's simple or straight forward, and I'm not saying a subscription service will work for RPGs. but the world has changed and businesses need to adapt.
Other companies have adapted.
Paizo makes all their core rules available to view online for free, yet they're doing great selling their books.
Even their Golarion gameworld is available legally for free online, yet people still buy their sourcebooks.
I've bought loads of their books, a couple of players on my Pathfinder/ Golarion campaign have bought some books as people generally prefer having a physical book, but it's really nice to have it all available online free as well.
So there's an alternative in the RPG industry that works.
Other companies have adapted.
Paizo makes all their core rules available to view online for free, yet they're doing great selling their books.
Even their Golarion gameworld is available legally for free online, yet people still buy their sourcebooks.
I've bought loads of their books, a couple of players on my Pathfinder/ Golarion campaign have bought some books as people generally prefer having a physical book, but it's really nice to have it all available online free as well.
So there's an alternative in the RPG industry that works.
danskmacabre
Mongoose
PhilHibbs said:
Well WOTC DO sort of do this with their DDI subscription.
People do pay for it/ use that service, although I don't have percentages of Players that use that model.
That shows how much I know about the RPG market! However, in any niche market like roleplaying games there is critical mass above which certain business models can work, and I suspect that only D&D is above that line. It may well be that getting a user base big enough to support these new models is impossible now - or if it is possible, that there is only room for a small number of players at that level - and D&D (including Pathfinder) is only there for historical reasons because it got there when the RPG market was healthy enough to get it there. In any case, RQ2 isn't there and I don't want Mongoose to fail for business model reasons because I like their niche product. Sure there are other innovations, such as Chaosium's monographs. Issaries Inc. only exists today because a number of people like me dug deep into their pockets and supported Greg while he had no viable business model to keep him in the creative business.danskmacabre said:
danskmacabre
Mongoose
You're probably right that Mongoose wouldn't be able to use a Subscription model like WOTC.
But Paizo also have a subscription service where you get lots of stuff as part of that, campaign update and so on.
Again I don't know how successful it is, but it's still going and people refer to it on the the Paizo forums.
Whatever the case, I'd love to see monthly PDFs made by Mongoose with mini-adventures in them for Elric/MRQ2.
If they only cost a couple of quid, I would most likely buy them AND more importantly it reinforces the games and Mongoose's online presence.
In online discussions Paizo's closeness with their customers and frequent updates/publications is frequently mentioned as part of reason for using Pathfinder.
But Paizo also have a subscription service where you get lots of stuff as part of that, campaign update and so on.
Again I don't know how successful it is, but it's still going and people refer to it on the the Paizo forums.
Whatever the case, I'd love to see monthly PDFs made by Mongoose with mini-adventures in them for Elric/MRQ2.
If they only cost a couple of quid, I would most likely buy them AND more importantly it reinforces the games and Mongoose's online presence.
In online discussions Paizo's closeness with their customers and frequent updates/publications is frequently mentioned as part of reason for using Pathfinder.
The reason the WOTC digital offering is successful is because they have a product that is continually changing, being added to and so on (not necessarily good!). They are now ensuring that if you want to keep up and don't want to spend 5 hrs pouring through thirty odd books just to level up your character, you do so with the 'online' character developer - available only through subscription.
Speaking of which, that subscription is pretty damn good value if you're into D&D 4E. For about $80 a year you get access to every issue of Dragon & Dungeon magazine, all the digital tools and the heads up on up and coming products and free downloads of maps etc. The magazine sub when in printed form, would cost significantly more than the diital sub. Those two mags, IMO, are the best thing about D&D. Dragon is all stuff for players, Dungeon is the stuff for GM's and each issue is packed with adventures and GM advice. It's just a shame they're changing the game to basically a mini/card game.
Speaking of which, that subscription is pretty damn good value if you're into D&D 4E. For about $80 a year you get access to every issue of Dragon & Dungeon magazine, all the digital tools and the heads up on up and coming products and free downloads of maps etc. The magazine sub when in printed form, would cost significantly more than the diital sub. Those two mags, IMO, are the best thing about D&D. Dragon is all stuff for players, Dungeon is the stuff for GM's and each issue is packed with adventures and GM advice. It's just a shame they're changing the game to basically a mini/card game.
danskmacabre
Mongoose
I don't doubt the reason for the success of DDI is the DnD brand.
But it was a bold move that seems to have paid off based on what you're saying.
I've never really been a big fan of DnD really. Well I used to play ADnD 1st ed many years ago, but got turned off once 2nd ed came.
After that it was Runequest/Stormbringer, Rolemaster, Spacemaster..
A couple of years ago I bought Pathfinder on recommendation from a friend (I had no experience of DnD 3.5).
I DO quite like it but the Combat tactical rules are actually quite complicated.
It's strange people peopel say they like DnD as it's simpler than other games, it really isn't.
Having been using the Pathfiner Tactical combat for a couple of years now I'm used to it, but I'm quite looking forward to going back to more abstract combat that doesn't rely on miniatures (although PF CAN be played without them, it seems to me it's fanbase for the most part assumes you will use them).
The trick is finding players who are up for moving away from DnD type games.
But it was a bold move that seems to have paid off based on what you're saying.
I've never really been a big fan of DnD really. Well I used to play ADnD 1st ed many years ago, but got turned off once 2nd ed came.
After that it was Runequest/Stormbringer, Rolemaster, Spacemaster..
A couple of years ago I bought Pathfinder on recommendation from a friend (I had no experience of DnD 3.5).
I DO quite like it but the Combat tactical rules are actually quite complicated.
It's strange people peopel say they like DnD as it's simpler than other games, it really isn't.
Having been using the Pathfiner Tactical combat for a couple of years now I'm used to it, but I'm quite looking forward to going back to more abstract combat that doesn't rely on miniatures (although PF CAN be played without them, it seems to me it's fanbase for the most part assumes you will use them).
The trick is finding players who are up for moving away from DnD type games.
DramaticExit
Mongoose
This may sound a little odd. It's also possible there was some sort of unique mental block, or that I lead a selectively-hermit lifestyle. Eitherway.
I've been running (and occasionally playing if I'm lucky
) pen and paper rpgs for a little over fifteen years now. This was across a variety of systems, though thinking about it, I suppose none were too off the mainstream path... D&D/AD&D, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun, Mechwarrior, various White Wolf ones, Star Wars, Dark Heresy, WFRP and, most recently, Eclipse Phase.
Throughout all of this I'd only very vaguely heard of Runequest, Heroquest and Glorantha. I do remember tidbits from many, many years ago but not much else. I suspect if I asked my group, most of them wouldn't know much more about it.
For such a storied, and well aged, setting I'm surprised how little widespread attention it feels like - this is all anecdotal - it has.
Especially considering just how *good* MRQII is.
I've only just discovered it these past weeks. It came from talking with my wife - who's currently running D&D 4e - about running a more, well, gritty fantasy system. After searching around and doing a lot of reading we settled on MRQII. However, before that it wasn't on the radar; only becoming so when we went out specifically looking for a system to fit our needs.
As always, jm2c, ymmv.
e: fixed some typos and mangled sentences.
I've been running (and occasionally playing if I'm lucky
) pen and paper rpgs for a little over fifteen years now. This was across a variety of systems, though thinking about it, I suppose none were too off the mainstream path... D&D/AD&D, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun, Mechwarrior, various White Wolf ones, Star Wars, Dark Heresy, WFRP and, most recently, Eclipse Phase.Throughout all of this I'd only very vaguely heard of Runequest, Heroquest and Glorantha. I do remember tidbits from many, many years ago but not much else. I suspect if I asked my group, most of them wouldn't know much more about it.
For such a storied, and well aged, setting I'm surprised how little widespread attention it feels like - this is all anecdotal - it has.
Especially considering just how *good* MRQII is.
I've only just discovered it these past weeks. It came from talking with my wife - who's currently running D&D 4e - about running a more, well, gritty fantasy system. After searching around and doing a lot of reading we settled on MRQII. However, before that it wasn't on the radar; only becoming so when we went out specifically looking for a system to fit our needs.
As always, jm2c, ymmv.
e: fixed some typos and mangled sentences.
Simulacrum
Mongoose
A fair observation - how do we market RQ to the broader FRPG community within the limited spend possible in the market. I suspect most players do not go to conventions...but that's a guess. How do you make RQ the fashionable game of the moment so more people seek it out?
DramaticExit
Mongoose
After Eclipse Phase (and apologies for using it as an example) I am wondering how effective traditional business models continue to be. The company creating Eclipse Phase provides the pdfs of their setting free, even seeding it themselves, reasoning that people will just pirate it anyway and, hey, it'll get them good publicity.Simulacrum said:
I suspect the idea is that gamers checking it out (legally, for free) will then see the high quality of the book and writing. If they feel obliged they can then buy the pdfs - which are very cheap compared to most competitors - or buy the hardcopy. It's maybe worth, again anecdotally, mentioning that my LGS had all the Eclipse Phase stuff in but only has the previous edition of Runequest in-stock. I am in Germany though so who knows, it's mostly 'Das Schwarze Auge' over here
Lastly, Eclipse Phase does a good job of branding itself. I discovered MRQII when deliberately looking for a gritty, fantasy system and I suppose the 'old-school' presentation helped sell that. There must be a way to play on that. When D&D players are looking for a change, do they know what those options are? I suspect for most, no. It's all fine getting the game name out there via advertising but if there's not a strong branding message accompanying that...
danskmacabre
Mongoose
Verderer said:
There has been talk of an Elric movie on the Moorcock site.
A movie studio even bought the rights to make it, but it fell through after a while, so I dunno what the score is atm.
If an Elric movie was made, I would think that would help with Elric RPG sales here.
DramaticExit
Mongoose
Well, absolutely. Most of what I wrote was either anecdotal and/or a little pie in the skyPhilHibbs said:
I'm certainly not suggesting it'd work everywhere, or even consistently. However, I'd always want a hardcopy of the core book at my table (ymmv). If that's the case for a good proportion of players, then perhaps having a free pdf of an attractive core book isn't always a bad thing.To be honest though, I don't know how much impact that has vs just plain old exposure and, as mentioned, maybe some good branding. I was just throwing some thoughts out there. Heck, anything that can get a good system - and company - more notice is a good thing
There's been evidence for quite some time in traditional publishing that giving away free PDFs increases sales of hard copies, rather than damages them. See, eg, Cory Doctorow from 5 years ago:PhilHibbs said:
http://www.forbes.com/2006/11/30/cory-doctorow-copyright-tech-media_cz_cd_books06_1201doctorow.html
"Most people who download the book don't end up buying it, but they wouldn’t have bought it in any event, so I haven’t lost any sales, I’ve just won an audience. A tiny minority of downloaders treat the free e-book as a substitute for the printed book--those are the lost sales. But a much larger minority treat the e-book as an enticement to buy the printed book. They're gained sales. As long as gained sales outnumber lost sales, I'm ahead of the game. After all, distributing nearly a million copies of my book has cost me nothing."
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