So how well is MRQ2 selling anyway?

[danskmacabre]

I'm going to try and finish an Elric mini-adventure I'm working on by the time I finish my holidays.
Having read nearly all the Michael Moorcock's books (and that's a LOT!), I have a pretty good feel for his Books and style.

I know very little about Glorantha though, having only played in that setting once. I played a Duck and it was a good laugh.

 

[DamonJynx]

Having read nearly all the Michael Moorcock's books (and that's a LOT!), I have a pretty good feel for his Books and style.

I know what you mean. I've lost count of how may times I've read the EC sereis (Erekose, Ulrik Skarsol, Illian of Garathom, Hawkmoon - my personal favourite, Corum and of course Elric) over the last 30 years, but it's been quite a few!

 

[danskmacabre]

The first MM book I ever read was "Elric of Melnibone", many years ago, I discovered it in a 2nd hand bookstore. That was when I was 16, so that was about 29 years ago.
Shortly after that a new RPG store opened up near where lived (In Sydney, Australia) and I discovered ADnD and the Stormbringer RPG (1st Ed).

I personally prefer his early works, but I do like most of his later stuff too.
I still have a soft spot for Elric, who is my favourite Eternal champion, followed by Corum.
I also loved the "Warhound and the world's pain" book.

The Hawkmoon series was great too as it revealed a lot of detail about the nature of the multiverse and the conjunction of the million spheres.

 

[ryhopewood]

Well, not that ready-to-make adventurers wouldn't be great. But what about an easy way to convert existing adventures to MRQ2?

That would be good, but kind of counter-productive don't you think? That is, if the aim is to entice disgruntled D&D players to RQ. Why would they bother converting a D&D scenario/module/adventure to RQ when they can just play it as is?

The aim Dan, is not just to have more adventures, but to support RQ as a game system and increase it's visibility/viability in the RPG market.

I think there are a large number of gamers out there who like D&D style adventures and settings but don't like the D&D rules. Therefore a conversion guide would be very welcome. For example, one of the best selling lines for GURPS is Dungeon Fantasy, which is all about D&D style dungeon quests.

IMHO MRQ2 definitely needs more adventures because gamers are getting older and have less time to assemble the parts themselves from a toolkit. Paizo have admirably demonstrated the success of this model.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Matt, what is your take on these posts so far? It would be interesting to have your viewpoint.

Well, RQII has always been a bit of an odd duck for us.

On the one hand, we believe it is pretty much the best rules set we have ever released. Anyone can pick apart a rules system for faults, but there are no problems with RQII worth mentioning. The production values are sky high, with a leather cover that most companies would use for limited editions, and it looks great on a shelf! We already have multiple settings for it, and plenty of free support courtesy of S&P.

But it sells about half what Traveller does, and that has us scratching our heads a little. We wanted it to equal Traveller, perhaps even exceed it, especially in the European markets where RQ games are traditionally strong.

The game has not quite met those goals. The Glorantha line, especially, is weak, selling no better than an own brew line such as Wraith Recon and Spellcom. There are plenty of Gloranthaphiles out there, of course, but I think they are sticking firmly with the 3rd Age. Given the choice between publishing a Glorantha book or developing our own IP (which may be used later in other areas), the choice is very difficult to justify the former.

The Abiding Book is a good example. If we had not produced a limited edition version that paid for the print run in itself, we might not have been able to produce the book at all... That makes us a little gunshy about Glorantha.

On the other side of the coin, Glorantha has always been seen as impenetrable by those who do not already know about it...

What is more frustrating for us is that the core book, Vikings and Elric (to name but three) have all been cited as being at least as good, if not better (mainly better ) than the original classics they were based on.

So, why are more people not buying into the games?

Well, Pathfinder is the big daddy at the moment, and even D&D is struggling against it. RPGs as a whole are on a dip at the moment. And there is no real effective marketing tools for RPGs any more outside the Internet and word of mouth.

The last is the most important. If you _truly_ believe that RQII is a good system, get evangelical about it. Tell everyone, in Real Life and on forums. Word of mouth has always been the most effective tool of marketing for RPGs, even in the days of Dragon and other RPG magazines.

It is worth noting that most FLGS' (the likes of Leisure Games aside) deal in relatively small numbers of sales of individual titles. If you convince just 3 or 4 people in one store to start buying up the line, the owner will take notice and start supporting the game more himself.

 

[Simulacrum]

IMHO MRQ2 definitely needs more adventures because gamers are getting older and have less time to assemble the parts themselves from a toolkit. Paizo have admirably demonstrated the success of this model.

I absolutely agree - in fact the focus on setting fluff can make prep an even bigger job as you struggle to absorb and assimilate it all, a further arguement to get some very solid published adventures to the buyers.

But I also take on board earlier comments that these are generally unprofitable at current volumes, due to the fact that only GMs buy them.

Back in the day there were quite a few supplements on the market for RQ and Stormbringer, among other things, that combined "companion" material (additional rules, cults, spells, treasure) with adventures so that at least some players might think they should pick it up too. Necromantic Arts is an example of a recent RQ pub that did that, although there was nothing very special about the adventure material presented - and given the failure to include the map to a lair described in the text failed on a basic requirement for an off the shelf adventure resource.

IMHO Glorantha has a problem with way too much fluff and not enough play (the adventures become ways to explore the fluff rather than the fluff adding colour to adventures). Pavis Rises, however, is the benchmark for me on a publication that actually provides material to play with written at a standard and with an imagination we would all aspire to - and I'm rather done with Glorantha (until someone offers me the chance to play Griffin Mountain again, naturally).

 

[Random Code]

But it sells about half what Traveller does, and that has us scratching our heads a little.

Stick the Conan setting to it and you won't be perplexed any longer.

 

[Mikko Leho]

The production values are sky high, with a leather cover that most companies would use for limited editions, and it looks great on a shelf!

I have to disagree you there, while the content of RQ2 is solid, the looks leave much to be desired at least when compared to other RPGs out there today. RQ2 looks like an ugly duckling compared to the likes of Pathfinder, Legend of the Five Rings, Eclipse Phase, Shadowrun etc. It does not really have to do with colors or the lack of thereof but more with consistent style. For instance Fantasy Craft featured only black and white illustrations, but they were mostly done in the same style and with class. With RQ2 you get the feeling of different illustrators pieced together with no direction.

 

[Random Code]

I have to disagree you there, while the content of RQ2 is solid, the looks leave much to be desired at least when compared to other RPGs out there today. RQ2 looks like an ugly duckling compared to the likes of Pathfinder, Legend of the Five Rings, Eclipse Phase, Shadowrun etc. It does not really have to do with colors or the lack of thereof but more with consistent style. For instance Fantasy Craft featured only black and white illustrations, but they were mostly done in the same style and with class. With RQ2 you get the feeling of different illustrators pieced together with no direction.

And compare it to the Italian edition of Runequest. That walks all over Mongoose's effort in terms a quality, art, and production values.

Appreciate that they may have a different business model but their production values are higher based upon a lower unit sale amount so it can only mean that Mongoose are paying over the odds somewhere along the line.

No, Mongoose's RQII is not the slick gorgeous book that some people think it is, I'm afraid, but I do think its an excellent game - which is more important.

 

[Nez]

I have to disagree you there, while the content of RQ2 is solid, the looks leave much to be desired at least when compared to other RPGs out there today. RQ2 looks like an ugly duckling compared to the likes of Pathfinder, Legend of the Five Rings, Eclipse Phase, Shadowrun etc. It does not really have to do with colors or the lack of thereof but more with consistent style. For instance Fantasy Craft featured only black and white illustrations, but they were mostly done in the same style and with class. With RQ2 you get the feeling of different illustrators pieced together with no direction.

And compare it to the Italian edition of Runequest. That walks all over Mongoose's effort in terms a quality, art, and production values.

Appreciate that they may have a different business model but their production values are higher based upon a lower unit sale amount so it can only mean that Mongoose are paying over the odds somewhere along the line.

No, Mongoose's RQII is not the slick gorgeous book that some people think it is, I'm afraid, but I do think its an excellent game - which is more important.

I agree that the content is more important and it is a sublime game, but I think the leatherbound books look awesome. Was a big selling point for me and prompted me to collect them.

 

[GevatterHein]

If you _truly_ believe that RQII is a good system, get evangelical about it.

Yes Mat, I will.

I started playing RQ in 1982. I loved the game and Glorantha. I loosed interest around 1990 and played many other Games. Of course AD+D but also GURPS, CoC, Shadowrun, Rolemaster, Lejendary Adventures, D+D 3.5, Pathfinder. I had a look at MRQI but didn't like the rules. Around Christmas last year I discovered MRQII. And now I'm addicted again. These are the best RQ-Rules ever. I bought all Core Books (except Empires) and the books of the Elric-, Wraith Recon- and Glorantha-Line in rapid succession. And I will buy the forthcoming Adventure Compendium.

And I pray every Day, that we will see MORE ADVENTURES published by Mongoose.The perfect Model for me to do this Books (for all lines), is Sun County: Colourfull Setting with good Adventures. I promise: I by them.

I have converted two of my three Groups, to play MRQ II: Elric and Glorantha. Now I work hard, to mesmerize my Pathfinder-Gamers into MRQII.

Yes Mat, I do.

 

[Random Code]

... but I think the leatherbound books look awesome...

Sorry, didn't quite explain myself - yep, leatherbound is really nice but I don't think the inside matches it in quality due to poor art, art lacking in consistent theme, and uninspiring (although clean!) layout.

 

[Deleriad]

Leather covers definitely top notch.

Internal layout. Plain but not bad for it. The one exception is the stat block lay out which is horrible.

Internal art. Mixed bag with no discernible sense of art direction.

A good comparison would be the Laundry RPG from Cubicle 7 or the new hardback version of BRP's Big Gold Book. Both look like they're printed by the same printing company. Laundry RPG has to my eyes similarly plain layout, slightly better art direction but similar mixed bag of quality. It has however a stunning internal cover. BGB has scattergun art, odd layout but nice shiny paper. I would say all three have pros and cons that roughly even out and sell for about the same price. All three are nice books with potentially a life-time's worth of play in them.

It's a shame that the Glorantha numbers are so small. As a long time RQ and Glorantha GM I have my theories as to why this is and it does seem to be the case that new players find the world impenetrable. That's a shame because I reckon that the Living Glorantha adventures show that it doesn't have to be that way. I do think that the one what I wrote (Flowers in Her Hair) ought to be playable with no previous experience. Golden Liberation Society is basically a Saturday afternoon Sinbad matinee. Things like Summons of the Wyter and Pavis Rises demand a little more of the GM and players but no more than starting out in any rich setting. Blood of Orlanth (MRQ1) is probably the best introductory campaign yet written for any RQ Glorantha. (Borderlands is the best comparison: that holds the players hands a bit more but I prefer the way that BoO expands outwards.)

 

[butscharoni]

Hi, I am new to Runequest and this forum, but I have to say, that the leather bound book with its nice and Classy layout was a huge selling point for me.
While the art is a mixed bag and does not really spark the imagination for the most part, this is true for many RPGs and I always felt especially so for most iterations of D&D, but has never hurt their sales, it seems.
I especially like the clean layout, though the stat blocks in the books are pretty horrid and would need some more work (Looking at you, bestiary!).
In Comparison, what I have seen form the often cited Italian edition looks garish in comparison and would have me put the book back on the shelves quickly. Thats my opinion, of course, but as often as I have seen people citing the Italian edition as superior, i thought it needed stating.

As a newcomer, the thing I feel is missing the most for Runequest is some solid world and campaign building advise. Especially rules-wise.
So, how do I really create new sorcery spells, that are balanced yet powerful? How many skill ranks should cultures provide? How about some cult creation examples for non-religious cults? Grimoires?
Some of the answers the such questions can be found on these forums and it seems there are additional rules in other books. But there lies a bit of a problem: While I would gladly pay for a book that helps me with all these things, I don't want to buy Wraith Recon or Elric just because one of the additional rules sounds great for my game or get the cults of Glorantha just because I want to know more about cults when I have no interest in Glorantha.

I think generic books like the Necromantic Arts or Vikings are the way to go, but there should be books about core concepts of the game. While Rune Magic for Vikings sounds great, I would rather like some more stuff on the magic Systems presented in the main rulebook. More spells to choose from, design guidelines etc. That goes for many other aspects of the main rulebook, as well.

I am also a fan of pre-made adventures and scenarios, but like them to be as generic and modular as possible. I might not even look at an Gloarnthan adventure twice, but if there is a nice Tavern with floor plans, NPCs and adventure hooks, that just has some info added, where in Glorantha it might be located, I would be much moire interested, since I could use such material in any of my games.

 

[Deleriad]

I am also a fan of pre-made adventures and scenarios, but like them to be as generic and modular as possible. I might not even look at an Gloarnthan adventure twice, but if there is a nice Tavern with floor plans, NPCs and adventure hooks, that just has some info added, where in Glorantha it might be located, I would be much moire interested, since I could use such material in any of my games.

I submitted a "plug-&-play" adventure to Signs & Portents which I believe is coming out in the next issue and attempts to do just that. It's essentially a simple floor plan for a site, some NPCs with a simple back story and possible hooks. Glorantha players will spot the obvious references while in theory it should be possible to fit it into any fairly standard fantasy world or even a post-apocalyptic setting.

My workload is about to shoot up so I won't be submitting any more to S&P for a while (though I might find time to submit a plug-&-play called "101 Goblins") but if people like it I would personally love to see similar kinds of plug and plays in S&P so I can use them. 8)

 

[languagegeek]

As a newcomer, the thing I feel is missing the most for Runequest is some solid world and campaign building advise. Especially rules-wise.
So, how do I really create new sorcery spells, that are balanced yet powerful? How many skill ranks should cultures provide? How about some cult creation examples for non-religious cults? Grimoires?

I feel like we’re starting to cover some old ground here (art, layout-statblocks and so on). However, the one "wish-list" point that seems to come up again and again is reiterated by Butscharoni above: some sort of book of formulæ and tables that guide us in our own world, culture, myth, spell, equipment building. If there are not going to be a lot of published adventures or sourcebooks in the near future (or ever), it’s up to us to develop these on our own.

In our campaign, I found that some tables on grimoire building would’ve been really helpful, especially now that spells are spread out among various books. A quick NPC maker would be nice for encounters on the fly, etc. etc. I also really appreciate all the work that people have made public on this forum, the wiki, and elsewhere: e.g. the martial arts CMs, the Eberron conversion, the chargen spreadsheet, and so on.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I agree that the content is more important and it is a sublime game, but I think the leatherbound books look awesome. Was a big selling point for me and prompted me to collect them.

Horses for courses - I saw the new rules were only available in a leather bound edition and immediately thought "How long do I have to wait for n edition that doesn't have an overpriced binding" - I had already had to pay over the odds for RQ1 because the core rules were split into several slim hardback volumes.

Opinions on individual pieces of art will always vary, but I think there is a broad consensus that the maps in Mongoose RQ products are very dissapointing (Though I think Pavis is better than most), and I still find the layout to be poor (as are the indexes)

 

[Dan True]

In our campaign, I found that some tables on grimoire building would’ve been really helpful, especially now that spells are spread out among various books. A quick NPC maker would be nice for encounters on the fly, etc. etc. I also really appreciate all the work that people have made public on this forum, the wiki, and elsewhere: e.g. the martial arts CMs, the Eberron conversion, the chargen spreadsheet, and so on.

I am playing with the though of making a DM's Guide, of course open for others additions also. Don't know if it will ever become anything, but I may go that way when Eberron has had it's next update (so, sometime this summer).

- Dan

 

[danskmacabre]

Regarding the MRQ2 Core rules book.
I personally prefer the black and white layout. Whilst the Pathfinder colour layout is very pretty I do find it quite distracting when searching for rules and stuff.
The leather bound and gold embossed print on the cover of MRQ2 is awesome, it looks really nice looks sturdy. I think it was worth doing that.
The internal artwork didn't really grab me but I didn't really care either way about it anyway. I bought a set of rules, not an art book.
All in all, I'm very happy with the MRQ2 book.

Regarding Glorantha. Speaking from the POV of someone who has only played it once and never read the books, I found it VERY confusing on the Mongoose main page.
I don't know which book I'm supposed to get and the different age things mean nothing to me. IMO, if you want to get people to buy it you need to assume that they know NOTHING about it (like me). Have a dedicated page on your site telling people about the world and what book should be bought based on the descriptions.
If, as a GM unless I know I can buy ONE worldbook and that's all I need to run a campaign to start with at least, then I wouldn't be buying Glorantha stuff.
And whatever book a GM new to Glorantha is going to buy should describe everything from the bottom up, not assume ANY previous knowledge.
As things stands, I just don't get it and don't want to buy a book that may well be wrong for me.
Also, there needs to be adventures for Glorantha. There may well be some out there say in S&P, but it wasn't obvious to me. A dedicated page for Glorantha info pointing to specific issues of S&P which contain adventures would be a good starting point.

Speaking of dedicated pages, really there ought to be a friendly, easy to read descriptive page for all the settings, including Elric etc...
Pointing to a forum for people to ask questions IMO isn't a solution either, as many people just aren't going to bother with that. If there isn't a page that's blindingly obvious, then I think you've lost lots of customers.
I'm not saying putting together a fancy page with Flash and java apps etc like WOTC has, just a page that actually explains the settings.

Regarding spreading the word. I think MRQ2 is slowly getting more popular already, I see it talked about more and more on forums. So it's getting there.

 

[danskmacabre]

I am also a fan of pre-made adventures and scenarios, but like them to be as generic and modular as possible. I might not even look at an Gloarnthan adventure twice, but if there is a nice Tavern with floor plans, NPCs and adventure hooks, that just has some info added, where in Glorantha it might be located, I would be much moire interested, since I could use such material in any of my games.

+1 on this, Adventures help a new GM to Glorantha how to get a feel for it.
Background material is all well and good, but Adventures are just as important IMO.